Reef Tank without fish?

[brandon429]

From prior page about ammonia only feeding: protein is the required input, it will convey other necessaries

other factors may need to be measured and dosed in response to unique variables that happen, especially when running outbound jobs in live work threads / variables range home to home, source to source

but protein input is a deal breaker (or, breakdown of proteins already presented to the tank perhaps unplanned=any sorts of scums imported and especially live rocks coming from other tanks with microcommunities in place. actual stony coral skeletons/what we mount are themselves miniature live rock systems that provide sustenance, for a while)

*who knows which limiting factor becomes the first death knell. protein is requisite on the list at some point as a lifespan limiter, so far, unless we can opt to get the tropic classification of all corals changed



Ammonia alone is not enough. I suppose you could make a liquid only diet for them using other means, but they're adapted to snatching feed from the water. The tentacles would be expending precious energy that no organism would retain as an adaptation if unused

The tentacles and nematocysts remain, do not get selected out after natural selection millennia because: meateater

 

[Tommypantsmagee]

Curious as to why you are convinced phyto additions (presumably to another tank) are a major benefit, but this tank gets nowt.

Phytoplankton Automatic Dosing System

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I will answer this question as I am Glassmunky’s husband. The tank that we don’t feed sits in our bedroom. We seriously don’t feed it, the coral grows like crazy, we do water changes when we remember to. I call it benevolent neglect. The phyto doser idea is for the big tank in the living room with actual live fish(a large group of Rainfords, possum wrasse, mandarin pair, and a big old mean clown.) as well as a much heavier coral population. We feed this tank twice a day and we use the phyto for multiple reasons.

 

[brandon429]

Where did the rock come from for the no feed tank

Another reef tank I'm thinking

Even if so it's still such a rarity, to not feed corals. mine will die back in a month if I lessen feeding, much less stop. plus my live rock is covered in pods and coralline, aged to the max still can't support coral alone.

Are there threads on that tank alone going back a while discussing that strategy before here-shows growth phases of the corals in place

 

[Tommypantsmagee]

Where did the rock come from for that tank

Another reef tank I'm thinking

Even if so it's still such a rarity

Are there threads on that tank alone going back a while discussing that strategy before here?

The rock has been in that tank for 6+ years. It moved with it 5 years ago when we bought our house in 2018The sand is also 6+years old.(we may have added a bit when we had some extra when we set up the big tank originally pre-Covid in 2019.) There are no threads goin back on that tank because it seriously is kind of an afterthought tank. We moved the Maxis up there when we restarted the bug tank because they are my little hobby and it was a way to keep them without putting any fish at risk. We even removed the Maxi-Minis from the rock and rubble they were previously on when we moved them up there. The porcelain nem crab and anemone shrimp, plus a snail or two( which Glassmunky usually forgets about until he sees them) are the only actively moving inhabitants. We aren’t sure why it works , or how it works, but we don’t feed the tank and everything thrives.

 

[formallydehyde]

I’ve had FOWLR tanks but are there any Coral only “without fish” tanks around? (COWOF yet another acronym lol)
anyway I did a tentative search already: nothing…
but is this even a thing and: or are there threads already?
has Anyone thought about it?

I tried something similar with an invertebrate only tank for a year because I really like invertebrates, but I do have a decent amount of coral. I kept encountering problems with population explosions of small animals until I finally caved and bought a pink streaked wrasse. At first it was copepods I introduced getting out of control which grew so numerous they were popping out of the sandbed like fleas and hitting my conchs in the eye and annoying them. Those went away on their own eventually. A few months later I had a bloom of amphipods and photosynthetic flat worms. The amphipods actually grew so over populated and desperate for food that they started nipping at my lettuce slug and injuring her. That was the point I bought the wrasse and he controlled everything within a month or two.

I don't know if any of this would be an issue in a coral only tank with much more limited feedings (active invertebrates actually can eat a lot, contrary to popular belief). I don't think anyone who says coral need fish waste are correct though, basically anything that eats and poops seems to be fine for them.

 

[brandon429]

I didn't get to know where the rocks came from, that went into the non feed tank. age/check that's really good length of time agreed with animals that actively feed to, finding sustenance


where did the rocks come from that went originally into the non feed tank, before the move

if they came from a reef tank, then the outcome is: that tank is able to stave off total starvation demise really well so far. it would make 100% sense how the tank is going: live rock carries that much sustenance during fallow times. it is the largest version of one of those sealed ecosystem eggs where the opulae shrimp inside simply had no other option, a place they never adapted to. but its lasting longer than I would have bet for sure, that part is neat to hear of.


and if they were dry rocks, bottle bac cycled, and no solid food ever was put into that tank and no live rock/surfaces other than the actual skeletons of the corals inserted, no seawater use, then I'm still on a hunt for the revealing clues as there's no precedent for that in reefing so its a fascinating description of the setup


*hey would you post closeup pics of the sandbed and rocks, curious how much coralline/benthic growth markers are on the rocks/algae pockets just the normal stuff. it's neat to be able to see how live rock ages in restricted systems vs fed ones. that's helpful to see can you post updated phone pics from today that are closer up/just a few?

thank you for responding. I remember a time nobody believed a fishbowl reef wasn't a photoshop it is nice to hear the age details of the system, 6+ years is serious age proof it is.

 

[Tommypantsmagee]

I didn't get to know where the rocks came from, that went into the non feed tank. age/check that's really good length of time agreed with animals that actively feed to, finding sustenance


where did the rocks come from that went originally into the non feed tank, before the move

if they came from a reef tank, then the outcome is: that tank is able to stave off total starvation demise really well so far. it would make 100% sense how the tank is going: live rock carries that much sustenance during fallow times. it is the largest version of one of those sealed ecosystem eggs where the opulae shrimp inside simply had no other option, a place they never adapted to.


and if they were dry rocks, bottle bac cycled, and no solid food ever was put into that tank and no live rock/surfaces other than the actual skeletons of the corals inserted, then I'm still on a hunt for the revealing clues as there's no precedent for that in reefing so its a fascinating description of the setup


*hey would you post closeup pics of the sandbed and rocks, curious how much coralline/benthic growth markers are on the rocks/algae pockets just the normal stuff. it's neat to be able to see how live rock ages in restricted systems vs fed ones. that's helpful to see can you post updated phone pics from today that are closer up/just a few?

thank you for responding. I remember a time nobody believed a fishbowl reef wasn't a photoshop it is nice to hear the age details of the system, 6+ years is serious age proof it is.

I don’t have the time to today but I will in the next couple of days.

 

[brandon429]

thank u for the input I know the corals are very healthy for sure it will be neat to see where the food source original input comes from: primary production via light on surfaces (algae feeds everything?) = tbd.

 

[buruskeee]

For nutrients, ammonia dosing might be all that’s needed, and it’s way safer without fish to overdose on.

 

[Maebh]

I’ve had FOWLR tanks but are there any Coral only “without fish” tanks around? (COWOF yet another acronym lol)
anyway I did a tentative search already: nothing…
but is this even a thing and: or are there threads already?
has Anyone thought about it?

I have one . It just a 55 litre, so not many fish can fit in there. It has its ups and downs but usually all is good! Heres an older pic.

 

[brandon429]

do u feed it

 

[graihg]

There was a lady local to me that for a time would buy nearly any tank shutdown available. When i visited her house it was mindblowing, a fairly large house with 35 tanks ranging from 40 to 300 gallons and stock pools containing 500 lbs of liverock.
She was so centered on spending on buying tanks that corals were an afterthought and she just propagated one type of maroon mushroom that completely covered every tank.

This sounds like, perhaps, behavior of the sort when one over indulges, long-term, with something that ends in "amine."

 

[Doctorgori]

My Fluval 13.5g has astraea snails and coral only. Stable parameters (average over last 3 months: 6.53 nitrates and 0.08 phosphates). I feed the coral every 3 days. Started dosing recently and coralline kicking into gear.

THIS!!!!
So I’m looking at this tank and there is beauty in the cleanliness and simplicity …
I’m curious how much nitrification is going on and where …
also the dosing and feeding regimes …
please come back

I would guess that N or P is coming from either RODI or rocks leeching over time. Rocks can leech N and P over a long period of time. If you have inverts, maybe it's waste? Dunno, but I believe you really do need at least a little bit of N and P like randy said for corals to grow.

yes I was thinking about this rock leaching deal also …this is why I want to experiment with a sterile setup using inert non pours materials and little to no nitrification areas

My main purpose in continuing to discuss this is to make sure folks do not take away from this thread that they can put corals in a closed system and expect it to keep on growing and expanding corals with no inputs.

Randy this isn’t some click bait bs but I wonder if we could make “test tube corals” …In your other thread there is some discussion about ammonia vs nitrate uptake and in another thread there is a biome bacterial discussion …

Now I’m wondering if we can skip the middle man so to speak and raise corals strictly via dosing and photosynthesis….Im picturing a sterile setup using Tridents, dosers et…sorta a mad scientist looking tank strictly setup for feeding corals via IV bag … so to speak

actual stony coral skeletons/what we mount are themselves miniature live rock systems that provide sustenance, for a while)

there has gotta be something going on in the unused dead coral skeletal undergrowth …the unlit older dead part of the coral has to be essentially “live rock” in some capacity

Ammonia alone is not enough. I suppose you could make a liquid only diet for them using other means, but they're adapted to snatching feed from the water. The tentacles would be expending precious energy that no organism would retain as an adaptation if unused

I’m not BSing…I wonder if we could raise clean “test tube” “Lab grade” corals….

I’m picturing a rows of bubbling vials with IV tubes dripping away aminos, nutrients, calcium, whatever….
..a totally sterile, controlled environment with little to zero nitrogen cycle, and fully controlled bacterial biodome

At first it was copepods I introduced getting out of control which grew so numerous they were popping out of the sandbed like fleas and hitting my conchs in the eye and annoying them. Those went away on their own eventually. A few months later I had a bloom of amphipods and photosynthetic flat worms. The amphipods actually grew so over populated and desperate for food that they started nipping at my lettuce slug and injuring her. That was the point I bought the wrasse and he controlled everything within a month or two.

I actually was wondering about this after witnessing years of pod and critter explosions on aquarium glass ….
Not sure how a system would work with the macro predators like fish removed …
this is a great point

I don't think anyone who says coral need fish waste are correct though, basically anything that eats and poops seems to be fine for them.

agreed, IMO Another parroted quip … I’m sure schools of tangs pooping over a reef feeds the corals but two things can be true and I’m sure another substitute exists…perhaps pure chemical ammonia…I dunno

For nutrients, ammonia dosing might be all that’s needed, and it’s way safer without fish to overdose on.

As above and exactly what I’m wonders…hope RHF and the other resident brains hash this out

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Now I’m wondering if we can skip the middle man so to speak and raise corals strictly via dosing and photosynthesis….Im picturing a sterile setup using Tridents, dosers et…sorta a mad scientist looking tank strictly setup for feeding corals via IV bag … so to speak

That’s certainly an interesting experiment. Since corals have a close relationship to bacteria on and perhaps in them, the main question is whether they will be happy with them. I do not think any other parameters are necessarily a problem.

 

[landlubber]

This sounds like, perhaps, behavior of the sort when one over indulges, long-term, with something that ends in "amine."

I'm not sure whether you mean dopamine or methamphetamine lol.
I do know the road to "amine" ended when despite running dehumidifiers, the paint was blistering off her walls. Not to mention, the stock tanks containing her liverock became the source of massive aiptasia outbreaks for people that bought it.

 

[graihg]

I'm not sure whether you mean dopamine or methamphetamine lol.
I do know the road to "amine" ended when despite running dehumidifiers, the paint was blistering off her walls. Not to mention, the stock tanks containing her liverock became the source of massive aiptasia outbreaks for people that bought it.

I was thinking ketamine...but your examples work, too.
I would have loved to pick around everything she had!

 

[Doctorgori]

For nutrients, ammonia dosing might be all that’s needed, and it’s way safer without fish to overdose on.

That’s certainly an interesting experiment. Since corals have a close relationship to bacteria on and perhaps in them, the main question is whether they will be happy with them. I do not think any other parameters are necessarily a problem.

I’m only halfway joking, in all seriousness why do we even bother with all the filtration, skimmers, nitrification sites et et ? I’m actually kind of asking you this question directly Randy…do we even need any of it and is it possible to just dose corals and nothing else?

The whole nitrogen dosing “movement” has a “Soylent Green” feel to it and got me thinking in that direction:

No scary bugs to I.D.
No algae or bryopsis outbreaks
No bacterial biome testing (or maybe?)
No worrying about any nitrification issues…
Drip drip drip …
…a totally sterile, “Liquid bath” environment with sterile inert sites, et

Kinda like a Sci-fi movie except with corals in the tubes…
Again in all seriousness…if even just for husbandry or a whole host of reasons …heck maybe surround them in blue light, rotating into perfect coral spheres lol

 

[Doctorgori]

small ramble, but The whole “heavy in heavy” out seems grossly inefficient if you end up just dosing ammonia after all… if this is the case, I can see advantages in just skipping the whole nitrification engine entirely, if that’s even possible…

…And of course also assuming all the hocus pocus going on with bacterial populations even has some real value in a coral only world….or does it only matter when we include the complications of a nitrogen cycle and it’s associated parts? What if water quality is handled sans bacterial cycle, do we even need to worry about the bugs at all or if so, are bugs required for metabolic processes?
and if so,, can we just dose them also?

…I keep imagining some type of fully automated coral tank, with nothing in it…
I can even see value in its failure

 

[landlubber]

I was thinking ketamine...but your examples work, too.
I would have loved to pick around everything she had!

Can confirm you would have.
She strongly advocated for the animals and was more than willing to give incredible deals to a person that showed interest and willingness to grow the hobby.

 

[Doctorgori]

From prior page about ammonia only feeding: protein is the required input, it will convey other necessaries

but protein input is a deal breaker (or, breakdown of proteins already presented to the tank perhaps unplanned=any sorts of scums imported and especially live rocks coming from other tanks with microcommunities in place. actual stony coral skeletons/what we mount are themselves miniature live rock systems that provide sustenance, for a while)

*who knows which limiting factor becomes the first death knell. protein is requisite on the list at some point as a lifespan limiter, so far, unless we can opt to get the tropic classification of all corals changed



Ammonia alone is not enough. I suppose you could make a liquid only diet for them using other means, but they're adapted to snatching feed from the water. The tentacles would be expending precious energy that no organism would retain as an adaptation if unused

I almost forgot about aminos and proteins and if adding these in a liquid dosing regime can also be incorporated…
Also bear in mind the products available to us are consumer grade hobby based products ….and the coral husbandry if frag based propagation from “mother colonies” housed in conventional reef tanks…

Not exactly “aquaculture” centered foods based on real scientific data