Radions - worst light fixtures in its class

[areefer01]

Pointless to keep arguing

All things considered I don't think there was many arguments in this thread. Having said that I do understand the point you made.

 

[AKReefing]

That's kinda the point, why people keep arguing about this. Kinda like politics. Every one has an opinion and no one is going to charge their minds. Pointless to keep arguing

I'm only seeing a discussion. If you have an opinion on Radions, what is it? The OP gave his. I gave mine.

 

[AKReefing]

No problem. It was just an example. There is a fan and heat sink although it is a small form factor. Philips Coral Care Gen 2's I think noted 25,000 hours. I don't know if all vendors provide that information nor do I claim to know how accurate it is or how it is derived.

I was just saying that I always wondered how so much light could come from such a small form factor without overheating. Not a critique, but wondering out loud. I haven't seen any over a large tank. When they first came out I remember they drew a lot of attention. Funny how trends change over time.

 

[Cichlid Dad]

I'm only seeing a discussion. If you have an opinion on Radions, what is it? The OP gave his. I gave mine.

Already gave it on this post. Started on post 56

 

[Cichlid Dad]

Already gave it on this post. Started on post 56

Back in July, why I asked if we were still talking about it.

 

[AKReefing]

Philips Coral Care Gen 2's I think noted 25,000 hours.

My assumption is that they could be over-driving them. I know Chinese-made LEDs are generally run way too hot and don't last long.

Some of my Radion G3s have been running up to 12 hours a day for a decade. That said, I knew back in my DIY days that, unlike MH, they don't last long if not properly cooled, so made the decision to use more Radions at lower intensity, hence, less heat. Wow, I just did the math--12 hours x 365 x 10 years is only 43,800 hours. I thought I broke a record or something. Guess not. Even at 50,000 hours, that's about 11 1/2 years. It's looking like I may beat 50K hours! I have noticed, however, that my PAR has dropped slightly over the years. I guess I still have room to increase intensity to compensate before they finally crap out.

 

[AKReefing]

Already gave it on this post. Started on post 56

56? That was so "last week". LOL

 

[AKReefing]

I'm sure the subject will still bee valid another ten years from now.

 

[AKReefing]

Ok, I went back to #56 and beyond. The thread definitely went down the negative path. You'd never know what the OP's issue was from reading that stuff.

 

[areefer01]

My assumption is that they could be over-driving them. I know Chinese-made LEDs are generally run way too hot and don't last long.

It was an odd number to me honestly. Then again they are passive cooling which also includes the power supply being a single unit. ATI Straton is also passive but they moved the power supply as a stand alone. Just different ways to do things I guess.

I thought I broke a record or something. Guess not. Even at 50,000 hours, that's about 11 1/2 years. It's looking like I may beat 50K hours! I have noticed, however, that my PAR has dropped slightly over the years. I guess I still have room to increase intensity to compensate before they finally crap out.

I have no idea and I didn't mean to sound like I was negating the run-time of your kits. In fact if you mentioned it I missed it - sorry. I believe if the hobbyist takes care of them to the best of their ability they will last. But I also believe that about taking care of cars.

I know that there are failures beyond our control or bad luck.

Hope your evening is well.

 

[oreo54]

My assumption is that they could be over-driving them. I know Chinese-made LEDs are generally run way too hot and don't last long.

Well that isn't the ole "black box" types.
Drivers are usually around 550mA and the V(f) may be around 3.6V so 2W
"165w" run about 110W.
Most are just cooled on a "license plate" heat sink with a fan.
No idea on the quality of the led chips used inside though.

Phillips are probably very cautious as to their lifespan rating or using a more
strict criteria including "system failure" not just LEDs.. That said I'm pretty sure they are one of the few that ACTUALLY tested the fixture.

yea.. found this to support myself..

What is the lifetime of the CoralCare fixture? The CoralCare fixture should be suspended in a ventilated area with a maximum ambient temperature of 35°C/95°F to ensure the lifetime of 25,000 hours at 100% light output. Any reduction in the light output or ambient temperature will help to prolong the lifetime.

https://www.assets.signify.com/is/content/PhilipsLighting/Assets/philips-lighting/united-kingdom/20200717-faq-coralcare-gen2.pdf

At best most 50000 hr ratings are at like the 80-70% output rating.

 

[areefer01]

Well that isn't the ole "black box" types.
Drivers are usually around 550mA and the V(f) may be around 3.6V so 2W
"165w" run about 110W.
Most are just cooled on a "license plate" heat sink with a fan.
No idea on the quality of the led chips used inside though.

Phillips are probably very cautious as to their lifespan rating or using a more
strict criteria including "system failure" not just LEDs.. That said I'm pretty sure they are one of the few that ACTUALLY tested the fixture.

yea.. found this to support myself..




At best most 50000 hr ratings are at like the 80-70% output rating.

ATI (Straton line) and Philips went with passive cooling. I think it was an innovating design change. Philips went with a lot of heat sink but also has the power supply up there. ATI - I thought I read that they lowered the power in the design for thermal management yet increased the number of LED's to compensate. Hard to say as I can't find the source - so maybe it is a mindstory.

In any case I'd wager the Coral Care 2 will last longer than what they advertised due to its overall weight and heatsink. Then again it doesn't sound like there are plans for a Gen 3.

 

[AKReefing]

Any reduction in the light output or ambient temperature will help to prolong the lifetime.

As I said

At best most 50000 hr ratings are at like the 80-70% output rating.

At the standard assumption of ~3% loss per year (at 100%, I'm guessing) that would compute.

 

[AKReefing]

ATI (Straton line) and Philips went with passive cooling. I think it was an innovating design change. Philips went with a lot of heat sink but also has the power supply up there. ATI - I thought I read that they lowered the power in the design for thermal management yet increased the number of LED's to compensate. Hard to say as I can't find the source - so maybe it is a mindstory.

In any case I'd wager the Coral Care 2 will last longer than what they advertised due to its overall weight and heatsink. Then again it doesn't sound like there are plans for a Gen 3.

Yeah, fans are only necessary if you cram too many onto a too-small heat sink. Maybe they're finally getting smart. I had a radion face down on a table top while I was configuring the Apex settings. It burned the table. The fan was screaming trying to keep up. Definitely over-driven, even with fans. I think the gimmick of creating small clusters of LEDs was some kind of marketing thing.

 

[oreo54]

As I said

At the standard assumption of ~3% loss per year (at 100%, I'm guessing) that would compute.

One plot..
Pretty standard.

LED Lifetime | Lighting Solutions | enLighten

Why are manufacturers are in a catch 22 situation when it comes to publishing product lifetimes and most importantly what parameters should a consumer look for while evaluating product lifetimes before purchasing LED lights.

www.enlighten.com.au

Thing is it's "lumens" so it partially includes phosphor degradation.
no sure how "solid" colors track.
Different ones do have different curves especially the higher energy ones like violet to UV.

for fun another "rating system"

So L/B value indicate the real lifetime at a certain hours. For example, L80B10 at 50,000 hours means at 50,000hours, the LED lamp keeping 80% lumen from initial lumen and only 10% light failed to reach 80% lumen.

 

[AKReefing]

Well that isn't the ole "black box" types.
Drivers are usually around 550mA and the V(f) may be around 3.6V so 2W
"165w" run about 110W.
Most are just cooled on a "license plate" heat sink with a fan.
No idea on the quality of the led chips used inside though.

With the Gen3 Pros I've been referring to, it's not that simple. For example (see below), the cool whites were run at 5W; blues at 4W and 3W each, others as low as 2.5W each. I don't have the specs on other brands, but between the picture of the tight cluster, and the wattage at which they're driven (at 100% intensity), you can see why there could be a shortened lifespan for Radions compared to the LED industry's claim of 50 to 100 thousand hours.

I think the newer G5 and G6s benefit from the distributed emitter layout. Now if they could just lower the prices so we don't have to look for bargains on used LEDs!

 

[Cichlid Dad]

56? That was so "last week". LOL

Great point!

 

[oreo54]

With the Gen3 Pros I've been referring to, it's not that simple. For example (see below), the cool whites were run at 5W; blues at 4W and 3W each, others as low as 2.5W each. I don't have the specs on other brands, but between the picture of the tight cluster, and the wattage at which they're driven (at 100% intensity), you can see why there could be a shortened lifespan for Radions compared to the LED industry's claim of 50 to 100 thousand hours.

I think the newer G5 and G6s benefit from the distributed emitter layout. Now if they could just lower the prices so we don't have to look for bargains on used LEDs!

4.815W (1500mA @ 3.21-ish volts) is CREES recommended max for the XP-E whites. So they "supposedly" ran whites out of spec.. Not good.

"Back in the day" it wasn't unusual to run leds at max current/wattage.
Many a DIY led was over-powered.

 

[AKReefing]

4.815W (1500mA @ 3.21-ish volts) is CREES recommended max for the XP-E whites. So they "supposedly" ran whites out of spec.. Not good.

"Back in the day" it wasn't unusual to run leds at max current/wattage.
Many a DIY led was over-powered.

This chart was from a decade ago. Maybe the specs were different then. I saw the opposite with Chinese LEDs. For example, I bought a light bar for my SUV labeled as 180W. At 12V, it should have used 15 amps. I measured 10 amps, so it was only 120W. Regardless, after +/-11 years, I've never had a G3 Pro fail, knock wood.

 

[oreo54]

This chart was from a decade ago. Maybe the specs were different then. I saw the opposite with Chinese LEDs. For example, I bought a light bar for my SUV labeled as 180W. At 12V, it should have used 15 amps. I measured 10 amps, so it was only 120W. Regardless, after +/-11 years, I've never had a G3 Pro fail, knock wood.

No that's the same Chinese trick as used in most black box LEDs.
3w * number of LEDs even if only ran at 2w.
Bit different for constant voltage arrays but those are rarely large wattage units.

Most wouldn't run whites at 100%.
Back in the gen3 days more were optimistic than realistic.

Radion could have used 1500ma drivers and just "rounded up". Certainly not unusual...5w or 4.8w same thing to marketing probably.

Glad to hear about the Longerivity.
There is unfortunately little documentation of what the real story is. The "urban legend" of 5 years and replace still exists with also zero to little roof of its validity.

As a side note there is also no comparison to " house lighting" either.
Doubt if any last 50000 hrs or even close.
Certainly not in any great percentage.

It's all odds sort of.
Since there was sooo much effort in this I had to post it: