Phosphate Vs Acropora

[Reefahholic]

This is 100% the case. I have a small acro system that I started about four months ago, went through the cycling, had coralline algae growth, added a "canary" red planet frag and watched it turn brown within a few days. My nitrates were 5ppm and P04 was .03ppm. Sounds normal right? Well, I started testing Po4 several times a week and watched phosphates hit zero on a hanna ultra low range followed by another .02-.03ppm reading the next few days. This tank doesn't have nuisance algae. I mean none, so I immediately dosed 10ml of seachem phosphorus to 40g of system water, tested and got .3ppm Po4. Eeek... well theoretically anyways according to the community's general practices. I tested the next day and got .12ppm. Wow, that sand/rock must be absorbing it like crazy. Over the following week, I had to keep dosing a cap full here and there all while noticing that frag was turning red and had more polyp extension. I can say without a doubt, my tank was phosphate limited. Phosphates are currently at .15ppm. Literally all I did to see an improvement was elevating Po4. No water changes, no other dosing, no changes in light, temperature, feeding or flow. This tank is also skimmerless and doesn't use algae or anything else aside or nutrient control.

Very nice. Always try to calculate the dose according to your volume and in ppm. You want to know exactly how many ppm’s you’re adding to be safe. A good rule of thumb is to only increase PO4 by .02 ppm in 24 hrs. You can never overdose the tank like that. If the tank is consuming/binding aggressively, then you can go much higher with a dose until you hit saturation, but the dose should be spread out several times a day (preferably on a dosing pump) to prevent shocking the corals/system. Not only is this safer, but the corals are able to receive PO4 24/7….all day long in much smaller doses.

Old Example from my GHL interface:

 

[jda]

Any difference in coral coloration?

Not yet... at least core color. This would take weeks, or at least it always has for me in the past. The level was back down to .03 a day or two ago, so going to stop adding in LC and let the fuge handle the rest. I took the extra skimmer out of the system the other day too.

New growth has slowed a bit, so I have less of the contrasting light-color tip coloration. It is no surprise that that calcification has decreased at bit with more po4. I never decreased feeding, so the other forms of phosphorous should have always been just as available. The growth should get back to normal soon.

 

[Miami Reef]

I took the extra skimmer out of the system the other day too.

Why? I thought you liked having 2 skimmers.

 

[jda]

I put in a fourth one for this incident.

 

[jda]

Nutrient/alk snapshots from the main at Battlecorals.

As of yesterday 7-13-23. Seems like I get asked about these two pretty often. Nitrate and Phos that is. So, here's a quick snapshot of my main system. Phos is definitely higher than I tend to go. Or at least higher than the last time I used these. But overall acceptable to me. lol I...

www.reef2reef.com

Some numbers if anyone is interested from perhaps the top acro true aquaculture vendor. Phosphate around 0.3ppm.

More information popped up on that thread. Worth a read.

 

[Miami Reef]

More information popped up on that thread. Worth a read.

What’s your experience with NSW parameters and LPS corals? Do they need higher nutrients/dirtier water?

LPS like trachyphyllia and other meaty corals.

 

[coral reeftank]

Quite an interesting read and thread. These past few years I've really changed my mindset around reefing. In the past I had chase ULNS systems but now,

My phosphate levels in my acro systems are
.62 ppm
.57 ppm
and .47 ppm
according to the Hanna ultra low phosphorous checker

The nitrates to these corresponding phosphate values are
9.8 ppm
40.1 ppm
62.5 ppm
according the the Hanna Nitrate checker

In my systems I observe that the tank with
.47 ppm PO4 and 62.5 ppm NO3 is the most sterile regarding nuisance algae and is capable of producing very colorful acropora with fast consistent growth.
The system with .57 ppm PO4 and 40.1 ppm NO3 also produces similar results as above. Minimal algae, strong consistent growth and coloration.

The system with .62 ppm PO4 and 9.8 ppm NO3 has the most significant film algae growth out of the three systems. The majority of the corals exhibit consistent and strong growth, but a small minority of acropora specimens exhibit paler and lighter colors in comparison to the other systems. I will be increasing my NO3 levels in this system and observe what happens.


It really goes to show how adaptable these corals are over a wide gamut of parameters!

 

[Miami Reef]

Quite an interesting read and thread. These past few years I've really changed my mindset around reefing. In the past I had chase ULNS systems but now,

My phosphate levels in my acro systems are
.62 ppm
.57 ppm
and .47 ppm
according to the Hanna ultra low phosphorous checker

The nitrates to these corresponding phosphate values are
9.8 ppm
40.1 ppm
62.5 ppm
according the the Hanna Nitrate checker

In my systems I observe that the tank with
.47 ppm PO4 and 62.5 ppm NO3 is the most sterile regarding nuisance algae and is capable of producing very colorful acropora with fast consistent growth.
The system with .57 ppm PO4 and 40.1 ppm NO3 also produces similar results as above. Minimal algae, strong consistent growth and coloration.

The system with .62 ppm PO4 and 9.8 ppm NO3 has the most significant film algae growth out of the three systems. The majority of the corals exhibit consistent and strong growth, but a small minority of acropora specimens exhibit paler and lighter colors in comparison to the other systems. I will be increasing my NO3 levels in this system and observe what happens.


It really goes to show how adaptable these corals are over a wide gamut of parameters!

Can I see some of your corals in the high nutrient tanks?

 

[coral reeftank]

Can I see some of your corals in the high nutrient tanks?

Sure!
http://reef2reef.com/threads/some-of-my-acro-collection.173621/

Here are some photos specifically from the high nutrient systems

 

[coral reeftank]

Regarding my specific goals for my systems I am very happy with these results!

 

[Miami Reef]

Sure!
http://reef2reef.com/threads/some-of-my-acro-collection.173621/

Here are some photos specifically from the high nutrient systems

Absolutely incredible color and growth. I’d be very happy if I had these results.

 

[coral reeftank]

These pieces are in the system with .62 ppm PO4 and 9.8 ppm NO3. I would be hard pressed to guess what PO4/NO3 conditions these corals were grown in if I did not test.

But both sets of corals grown in both of these different environments are still totally awesome!

 

[hart24601]

Honestly I followed the nsw low levels for years around 10 to 15 years ago. Worked fine but was a bit fussy. I have now adopted a higher phosphate and nitrate levels across the board from my previous acro tanks to my softie tanks and have seen nothing but improvements in growth health and color. I took down the acro tanks because they are a pain to constantly frag and honesty unless taking macro shots, boring.

10 years ago nice acro only tanks were rare, but now they seem almost commonplace and at this stage of the game I suggest to people to just experiment a bit and see what what like and their system responds to. Realistically it doesn’t matter much except to your system.

 

[Pod_01]

So over the past few months I gone from:

To:

The system did it on its own, I fed more but PO4 was just going down and down…..

Let’s just say dry / dead rock and low PO4 is bad, really bad for my system.
In this latest experiment I lost 4 acros …
I mean they struggled from my last crash but at the elevated PO4 levels they seem to be healing.

Once the PO4 had gone to the 0.05 and below level, well they are in the trash now.

Feels like I have to re-learn this lesson every few years and this might be specific to my system.

Now I need to figure out what to use to get PO4 up, is it orthophosphate or Polyphosphates etc… The fun starts…

 

[Perry]

Very interesting to see an array of parameters and successes. Perhaps consistent feeding, consistent measured amounts(input), consistent export method are more important, at least that's what I strive for. Consistent method of testing can also assist in observation, which above all, in my experience, observation is key.
P04-.06-.10ppm
N03-4-8ppm
Alk- 7.3dkh
PH- 8.1 low 8.4 high

 

[Crustaceon]

Very nice. Always try to calculate the dose according to your volume and in ppm. You want to know exactly how many ppm’s you’re adding to be safe. A good rule of thumb is to only increase PO4 by .02 ppm in 24 hrs. You can never overdose the tank like that. If the tank is consuming/binding aggressively, then you can go much higher with a dose until you hit saturation, but the dose should be spread out several times a day (preferably on a dosing pump) to prevent shocking the corals/system. Not only is this safer, but the corals are able to receive PO4 24/7….all day long in much smaller doses.

Old Example from my GHL interface:

I like the dosing pump idea. I'm going to have to try that one out.

 

[Kato]

I read many of the posts in this thread, but not all of them so applogize if beaten to death. I know a few mentioned it, but think it's worth highlighting something. What if is is super simple?

I usually test phosphate once per week. Others do it daily and some monthly. But it's not like PH where you have a constant reading. What if the constant supply is what matters which is why sometimes higher PO4 leads to better results as it's less likely to bottom out certain days/hours.

I recently lost about half of my acropora and I've been thinking a lot about why. My PO4 was 0.03 when I tested every week or so (newer tank with some old and some new rock. I did add additional rock over time). I did notice many of the acropora got pale,, but certainly couldn't be PO4 as it was within range. It also happened slowly (weeks) so hard to quantify. Nitrate I care less about and is usually 1-5. Then I came across an old bottle of reef roids. Now I don't believe it feeds acropora, but I do know how much PO4 i contains so I dosed a bit. Literally the next day all colors were better. Deeper and more vibrant. PO4 shot up to 0.08. No losses since I keep it at 0.08 (and test every day).

What if the reason it takes a year for a tank to stabilisize for acropora is not some 'magic' beneficial bacteria or bio diversity but simply the rock having absorbed what they can and there's now a steady supply of PO4 as they leach back into the water column should it get lower? To me that sounds plausible. I'm not a fan of the unknown bio diversity, special bacteria or that things just have to mature.

What if that is the reason that fully sterile rock is more prone to hitting 0 PO4/dinos is because the delta between the rock and water column is bigger.

 

[ReefDreamz]

IMO, most people don’t have 10 year old systems like Jda. 0.03 ppm Phosphate is very low. I’ve seen many reefers struggling with STN/RTN at that level especially in younger systems.

Here’s why people have bad algae problems. They have PO4 at .01-.03 in a young tank. They see algae pop up and take control. The assumption goes that if there is algae the Phosphate level is sky high, but the valves are coming back low, because the algae is consuming it faster than we can test for it.

The Phosphate is low, because the algae is consuming the majority of the phosphate, and is usually outcompeting the corals, and microbiome. The level isn’t high. It’s low. It’s not available, and what is available typically isn’t enough. Everything needs phosphate to function, but the algae is limiting everything else and causing a crap storm in the tank.

The first reaction for most reefers when they see algae is to start GFO, Carbon Dose, Skim Wet, do a water change, etc. Those are the worst thing’s you can do, because they all take a horrible situation and throw gasoline on the already raging fire.

Although it may seem counterintuitive, and against every natural instinct you have as a reefer, but the best thing to do is dose phosphate in that situation, or add more fish, feed more, remove filtration or harvest macro algae, etc. Get the PO4 up to .08-0.15
and watch the tank start to turn around. The algae actually slows down, and will eventually die off. It becomes outcompeted as the good guys wake up and enter the battlefield. Also keeping an eye on NO3 is smart. Zero NO3 can cause Cyano and other issues. Don’t scrub the rocks. Siphon the algae and grab the long stuff with your thumb on the end of the siphon tube. Add a good CUC. Once the algae is fading out and you manually remove the bigger stuff, they will take care of the rest. Just dose it up by .02 ppm daily until you reach .08 ppm. Hold it there for a few weeks and test daily and observe. Then report back.

Just wanted to follow up on this thread and say that I did what you recommended. I stopped running GFO, skimmed dryer, added a couple more fish and started feeding more including 50 to 100 ml of live phyto a day. It was not easy to embrace this approach while in the midst of a GHA problem. NO3 now hovers around 9 to 10 and PO4 0.08 to 0.11 ish. I also added more snails and hermits. All my GHA faded away. Each week when I would siphon out the GHA it just didn't grow back until there was none left. My tank just recently crossed the one year mark and I havent had to sipon algae for about 4 weeks now and my rocks are completely clean of GHA and my corals are looking amazing. Thanks a lot for the help!

Bad pic but you can see how good everything is doing.

In case anyone is interested, my tank is 50" x 31" x 23" and based on those dimensions is 154 gallons but minus the glass volume it's actually about 140 gallons. I have a relatively large sump with about 50 gallons in it. In this tank I keep 20 fish including:

1 yellow tang
1 gem tang
1 convict tang
1 white tail tang
2 clown fish
2 bangaii cardinals
3 zebra barred dartfish
5 lyretail anthias
1 yellow coris wrasse
1 mccosker's flasher wrasse
1 royal gramma
1 midas blenny

I feed TDO pellets 3 times per day via an auto feeder, nori once per day (1/3 sheet), frozen once per day (LRS), and the live phyto once per day.

This is one week's worth of algae growth harvested from my scrubber:

Filtration:

 

[Land&Sea]

I know this is an old thread but it’s been a very good read. And so I’ll tell u about something I tested out on one of my tanks...

I decided to lightly dust my fish pellets in an auto feeder with reef roids (along with Acropower in my ATO) for about 2 years, and my acros never looked better with DEEP coloration in every hue of the rainbow, polyp extension like I’ve never been able to achieve before, and everything was growing like weeds. I was testing my phosphates on a Hanna checker almost every day for months and it was always in the .2-.3 (not .02/.03) range. Which I obviously just chalked it up to the constant feeding of reef roids, and didn’t really worry about it. Then I got cocky as nothing seemed to be changing in any sort of bad way and stopped testing for a while (maybe 6-8 months). So I decided to test one day when i bought 6 new expensive frags and noticed they were all dying fast, and it read at 3.9 ppm. Obviously the tiny broadcast feedings 3 times a day were starting to build up and probably a lot of reef roids getting bound into my rocks and sand, but still no algae and my colonies never looked better (i did have a major explosion in bristleworms and amphipods tho). But any new stick I’d throw on the rack would literally melt away in days. Suffice to say, I wasted quite a bit of money just to kill a bunch of frags. So now I’m mega dosing my GFO, bc even though all the corals that were already in the tank never looked better, I wasn’t able to add anything new as I believe they just went into full blown shock coming from systems that ran MUCH MUCH lower numbers. Anyway, it’s been four months now of putting 4 cups of rowaphos in the reactor and 4 cups of algaebarns dry round pellet GFO in bags (which is about 6-8 times what I used to use), and my system is still at .47 (tested today). The funny thing is, now all my colonies look worse off than they did when my phosphates were 3.9. Obviously they gradually got used to the rising phosphates and now that I’m bringing them down, they’re not too happy about it. They’ve gotten somewhat paler and PE is at an all time low. I sometimes wish I could’ve just been content with my tank as it was and just left it. But I’m a reef junky, and buying new sticks is practically an addiction at this point. So I didn’t want to run a system that I couldn’t add new stuff to. I mean, where’s the fun in that, am I right? so I’m gonna keep driving them down until I get them below .1, and then I’ll buy a battlebox to quickly quench my thirst for something new. The only question I’m pondering now is how long it’ll take for my colonies to bounce back to their former glory after living life in a MEGA-high phosphate system that they loved. I’m guessing it’ll be quite a while.

Obviously, the moral of the story is, I think these corals can live in just about anything as long as it’s done very slow/gradually.

 

[Hans-Werner]

Anyway, it’s been four months now of putting 4 cups of rowaphos in the reactor and 4 cups of algaebarns dry round pellet GFO in bags (which is about 6-8 times what I used to use), and my system is still at .47 (tested today). The funny thing is, now all my colonies look worse off than they did when my phosphates were 3.9. Obviously they gradually got used to the rising phosphates and now that I’m bringing them down, they’re not too happy about it. They’ve gotten somewhat paler and PE is at an all time low.

In my experience this result is reproducible. Acroporas are able to adjust to higher phosphate concentrations without problems but have a very hard time and may even die from STN when challenged with lower phosphate concentrations.

This is worth to overthink when having little success with introducing new corals in tanks with low phosphate concentrations.