Ph issues

[Naturalreef]

Yes I’ve looked into that and my back is pretty open and I have a goby in there that moves sand around like a bulldozer

More so in your filter areas that aren’t reached.

 

[steve 1965]

More so in your filter areas that aren’t reached.

Yeah my sumps pretty clean filled with macro. But I am going to clean it this weekend . But I’m pretty sure I found the issue for the sudden drop. Before using that product my ph never dropped below 7.8 at night and 8.1 during the day. I think it’s a bacteria type bloom from the product. I will monitor it. Maybe Randy can give some insight to what’s in that product that can cause it. I have heard that it can cause bacteria issues. This hobby is a learning process

 

[steve 1965]

When are you dosing the bactobalance?

It was definitely the bacto balance causing the issue. Maybe you can give me some insight to the bacteria used in this product that would cause some kind of chemical imbalance maybe ? But I dosed it at 1800hrs and it plummeted the ph almost instantly.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I was dosing at 6am and I just switched to 1800 and it just dosed 5ml in 160g and it plummeted my PH

OK, that makes sense.

 

[steve 1965]

So what would make this product have this effect on ph. Must be making the water acidic? I’ve watched Lou From Tropic Marin on several you tube videos and I’ve been using his other products with no issues. So not sure what made this react differently . Hoping you could explain

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

So what would make this product have this effect on ph. Must be making the water acidic? I’ve watched Lou From Tropic Marin on several you tube videos and I’ve been using his other products with no issues. So not sure what made this react differently . Hoping you could explain

I do not think it is primarily or only an acidic product, as that would drop pH as fast as it mixed in and it seems to take at least 30 min in your tank (but perhaps it does take that long to mix in if you add to a sump and measure pH upstream of it). In any case, try measuring the pH of it directly.

I do not know exactly what TM adds to the product aside from the idea that it is organics (and maybe long chain organics, but that is not a pH issue), but all organic carbon dosing can lower pH as the organics are converted into CO2. 30 minutes is fast for that, but the timing of the bottom may be impacted by other factors such as photosynthesis coming on line using up some of the CO2.

 

[steve 1965]

I do not think it is primarily or only an acidic product, as that would drop pH as fast as it mixed in and it seems to take at least 30 min in your tank (but perhaps it does take that long to mix in if you add to a sump and measure pH upstream of it). In any case, try measuring the pH of it directly.

I do not know exactly what TM adds to the product aside from the idea that it is organics (and maybe long chain organics, but that is not a pH issue), but all organic carbon dosing can lower pH as the organics are converted into CO2. 30 minutes is fast for that, but the timing of the bottom may be impacted by other factors such as photosynthesis coming on line using up some of the CO2.

Ok thank you. That’s exactly why I was using his product because it seems like more of a natural way to control nutrients then simple carbon dosing. I am monitoring the tank now ph is still running low. I’m not going to chase the numbers. Everything else is good tank looks good. I’ do one 10% water change a week but will do a 30% this weekend. Thanks for your input.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Ok thank you. That’s exactly why I was using his product because it seems like more of a natural way to control nutrients then simple carbon dosing. I am monitoring the tank now ph is still running low. I’m not going to chase the numbers. Everything else is good tank looks good. I’ do one 10% water change a week but will do a 30% this weekend. Thanks for your input.

Not sure what about it is more natural. You don't even know what is in it, and the acetate in vinegar is used by every organism in the ocean,. Hard to be "more natural' than that.

 

[steve 1965]

Not sure what about it is more natural. You don't even know what is in it, and the acetate in vinegar is used by every organism in the ocean,. Hard to be "more natural' than that.

Ahh yes so he clams its long long chain organics bacteria from seaweed out of the oceans. That’s why I tried it because of an interview with BRS. I’ve never tried vinegar only Vodka but according to what I saw from that interview Vodka not only feeds the good bacteria but also the bad. Where their products the bad bacteria cannot consume. I don’t know what’s fact. Do you have any articles on using Vinegar as a carbon Dosing?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Ahh yes so he clams its long long chain organics bacteria from seaweed out of the oceans. That’s why I tried it because of an interview with BRS. I’ve never tried vinegar only Vodka but according to what I saw from that interview Vodka not only feeds the good bacteria but also the bad. Where their products the bad bacteria cannot consume. I don’t know what’s fact. Do you have any articles on using Vinegar as a carbon Dosing?

And of course, the seaweed sourced unknown chemicals feed only good bacteria. lol

What even is a good bacteria vs a bad bacteria?

On the naturalness of acetate (vinegar):

Prokaryotic Capability to Use Organic Substrates Across the Global Tropical and Subtropical Ocean

Prokaryotic Capability to Use Organic Substrates Across the Global Tropical and Subtropical Ocean

Prokaryotes play a fundamental role in decomposing organic matter in the ocean, but little is known about how microbial metabolic capabilities vary at the global ocean scale and what are the drivers causing this variation. We aimed at obtaining the first ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Acetate, the Main Carbon Source Used
Remarkably, all communities shared the utilization of one specific carbon source, acetic acid, which accounted for a relative use of, on average (±SE), 5.47 ± 0.27 across communities (i.e., mean of the percentage absorbance contribution to the total absorbance of the plate). This is at least twofold higher than that of the second most used carbon source (Figure 2b).

https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1029/2018GB006129

At some sites, acetate carbon may have accounted for up to 50.4% of the bacterial carbon production. These results suggest that acetate may serve as an important carbon and energy source for heterotrophic bacteria thus revealing a potentially significant role of acetate for dissolved organic carbon cycling in the ocean.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

This article describes vinegar dosing:

NEW Vodka and Vinegar Dosing Charts

The reasons I'm updating the Vinegar and Vodka dosing charts are two-fold: 1. The ramp was unnecessarily slow. There was no perceived benefit to such a tedious ramp, and it led to reefers quitting because they thought carbon dosing didn't work. 2. The ramp did not scale up correctly...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[steve 1965]

And of course, the seaweed sourced unknown chemicals feed only good bacteria. lol

What even is a good bacteria vs a bad bacteria?

On the naturalness of acetate (vinegar):

Prokaryotic Capability to Use Organic Substrates Across the Global Tropical and Subtropical Ocean

Prokaryotic Capability to Use Organic Substrates Across the Global Tropical and Subtropical Ocean

Prokaryotes play a fundamental role in decomposing organic matter in the ocean, but little is known about how microbial metabolic capabilities vary at the global ocean scale and what are the drivers causing this variation. We aimed at obtaining the first ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Acetate, the Main Carbon Source Used
Remarkably, all communities shared the utilization of one specific carbon source, acetic acid, which accounted for a relative use of, on average (±SE), 5.47 ± 0.27 across communities (i.e., mean of the percentage absorbance contribution to the total absorbance of the plate). This is at least twofold higher than that of the second most used carbon source (Figure 2b).

https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1029/2018GB006129

At some sites, acetate carbon may have accounted for up to 50.4% of the bacterial carbon production. These results suggest that acetate may serve as an important carbon and energy source for heterotrophic bacteria thus revealing a potentially significant role of acetate for dissolved organic carbon cycling in the ocean.

Thanks I will read up on Vinegar.
So this is the video I watched where he explains the contents of these bacteria.

 

[ChrisfromBrick]

ph swings naturally at night due to the respiration period of the corals/algae/etc in lieu of the lighting period in the main display.

corals use co2 during the day for photosynthesis, at night everything respires and releases co2 which is why you're seeing the drop.

1. first thing and easiest change you can make is to crack a window in the room of the tank to vent in fresh air from outside. if your home is air tight and has little exchange... your own breath + pets will raise the co2 in the room and cause the ph to fall. this affect is more noticeable when everyone is home sleeping, then everyone wakes up in the morning telling each other what they have planned for the day over breakfast... hence your ph drop happens consistently at 5-7am.

2. if you have a skimmer; you can route your skimmer air intake line outside to bring in fresh air. this is going to aerate your water with fresh air. bonus: you can further this effect by co2 scrubbing it if you're not lazy about switching media. i hear it burns up quick, but maybe someone else can chime in.

3. if you have a fuge; you can run the light cycle opposite hours of the day time lights to fight the drop with macro algae photosynthesis.

4. if you're dosing kalk, you can do so at night to push your ph up in the evening hours.

no matter what, you're going to see a swing. use these options as ways to minimize that swing. i wouldn't chase it.

tldr: open a window, skimmer air intake from outside, opposite light schedule on fuge, dose kalk at night. don't chase it.

Just to add, I recently began recirculating my co2 scrubber to skimmer and the media lasts about 6-7x as long. Its totally worth getting a scrubber if you want to raise your ph so corals grow faster. Without recirculation, the media burns up pretty fast, but my tank is in my basement.

 

[GARRIGA]

Fuge/ATS ran at night would likely solve this. All about scrubbing co2 and contribution.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Thanks I will read up on Vinegar.
So this is the video I watched where he explains the contents of these bacteria.

I'd advise more caution in general acceptance of claims (from anyone, manufacturer or fellow reefer) that do not give evidence.

I've communicated with Hans -Werner Balling and Lou Ekus (from TM) on numerous occasions. Hans-Werner is quite active in this forum, and I appreciate his input. I have more confidence in TM because of their knowledge than in most reefing companies, but they do not know exactly what happens to their chemicals after dosing any more than people know what happens to acetate or ethanol. Something consumes it. That's about it.

 

[steve 1965]

Yes I live all their videos and I do love TM products. I was dosing 5ml in the morning in a 160g tank to maintain a PO4 between 0.08 and 0.15 but seem to be running more like 0.20. While my NO3 has remained very low around 1.0 to 3.0 both on a Hanna checker . I don’t have a bad algae problem. I see clumps of it on some of my rocks and I manually remove it pretty easily once a week. So I know the products work. But it has slowly been decreasing my ph. I’m reading on some of the forums to dose carbon slowly during the day. As I was doing it in early morning so maybe that was my mistake. I will follow more research on Vinegar. And maybe start a dose of 2.5 ml mid morning on a dosing pump and slowly. Increase as needed following PO4 tests. Would this be a good start ?