Parasite problem

[AliceSz]

Hi Everyone,
I'll try to make the long story short but I hope someone can help me please. I asked an experienced individual to help me set up my first tank in November last year(500L) and it all went well and then I saw one of my tangs nibbling on rocks and occasionally flipping the sand with its nose. I thought maybe it was grazing or looking for food. Everyone has been eating well since day 1, I give the tangs Nori, feed mysis, different types of shrimp, krill, plankton and two different types of flakes to make sure their diet is good. One of the tangs was being chased by another and then we had black spots on him so started treating the whole aquarium as at this point all 3 tangs were flicking the sand and I started to worry that it is due to a parasite. No other symptoms on anyone else at all since the start. I treated them with a non copper medication which someone I know used many times to solve white spot problem and I didn't lose any of them and the black spots disappeared very quickly. We stopped the medication after 30 days, put in carbon and phos and did a water change and 3 days later my wrasse had the mouth problem but to the point that he could not breathe. It looked like he swallowed some cobweb. All other fish was fine apart from the tangs who starting to flick the sand again more and more and then I realised that their teeth was on show (upper lip seemed to have rolled back) again no other symptoms. Went to aquatics shop, spoke to the other guy who has been a great help and they both advised to start using copper in the main tank which I did. We agreed to treat the whole aquarium rather than stress out the fish and try to catch them but I had to put more copper in due to the rocks and sand... I kept my copper level around 0.5, measured it 4 times a day and then eventually I lost two out of my 3 tangs and my coral beauty so I was devastated. Everyone said not to stop the treatment now so today I am on week 3 but my Royal gramma and jewel tang are still scratching their sides a few times a day (maybe less than before) but I think now my clownfish also started scratching its nose.
In summary, I tried 3 different medication, all of which seemed to prevent them from having external symptoms but I am at a loss as to what to do next...
Please can you let me know if you have seen this before and how I can solve this problem? I am now thinking on getting rid of all the sand and breaking up my rock sculpture so I can take it out and making my display aquarium a giant quarantine tank as my QT is not big enough to house everyone.
I have also been asked what my water reading is in case it is not right so I checked everything see below:
GH 180
KH 8.15
PH 8
NO2 0
NO3 40

 

[vetteguy53081]

Hi Everyone,
I'll try to make the long story short but I hope someone can help me please. I asked an experienced individual to help me set up my first tank in November last year(500L) and it all went well and then I saw one of my tangs nibbling on rocks and occasionally flipping the sand with its nose. I thought maybe it was grazing or looking for food. Everyone has been eating well since day 1, I give the tangs Nori, feed mysis, different types of shrimp, krill, plankton and two different types of flakes to make sure their diet is good. One of the tangs was being chased by another and then we had black spots on him so started treating the whole aquarium as at this point all 3 tangs were flicking the sand and I started to worry that it is due to a parasite. No other symptoms on anyone else at all since the start. I treated them with a non copper medication which someone I know used many times to solve white spot problem and I didn't lose any of them and the black spots disappeared very quickly. We stopped the medication after 30 days, put in carbon and phos and did a water change and 3 days later my wrasse had the mouth problem but to the point that he could not breathe. It looked like he swallowed some cobweb. All other fish was fine apart from the tangs who starting to flick the sand again more and more and then I realised that their teeth was on show (upper lip seemed to have rolled back) again no other symptoms. Went to aquatics shop, spoke to the other guy who has been a great help and they both advised to start using copper in the main tank which I did. We agreed to treat the whole aquarium rather than stress out the fish and try to catch them but I had to put more copper in due to the rocks and sand... I kept my copper level around 0.5, measured it 4 times a day and then eventually I lost two out of my 3 tangs and my coral beauty so I was devastated. Everyone said not to stop the treatment now so today I am on week 3 but my Royal gramma and jewel tang are still scratching their sides a few times a day (maybe less than before) but I think now my clownfish also started scratching its nose.
In summary, I tried 3 different medication, all of which seemed to prevent them from having external symptoms but I am at a loss as to what to do next...
Please can you let me know if you have seen this before and how I can solve this problem? I am now thinking on getting rid of all the sand and breaking up my rock sculpture so I can take it out and making my display aquarium a giant quarantine tank as my QT is not big enough to house everyone.
I have also been asked what my water reading is in case it is not right so I checked everything see below:
GH 180
KH 8.15
PH 8
NO2 0
NO3 40

Tank appears very new and may be part of the issue. Additionally, if new - One medication is bad enough and applying 3 in a short period of time is either a guessing game or Poor advise from LFS.
To clarify, is this copper/cupramine or copper safe?
How are you testing copper level?
What other meds did you use as mentioned?

 

[AliceSz]

Tank appears very new and may be part of the issue. Additionally, if new - One medication is bad enough and applying 3 in a short period of time is either a guessing game or Poor advise from LFS.
To clarify, is this copper/cupramine or copper safe?
How are you testing copper level?
What other meds did you use as mentioned?

Tank was set up in November 2023.
Avloclor was used first then had a break, water change etc and tried to use peroxide and then used copper sulfate.
I tested with Hanna tester the first two weeks as had one borrowed from someone and now testing with Salifert as I purchased a Hanna copper tester but haven't arrived yet.

 

[vetteguy53081]

The peroxide wouldn’t have done much and the sulfate unless measured correctly also
Avlaclor available in Europe is one of the choices and takes a littte longer to work

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Tank was set up in November 2023.
Avloclor was used first then had a break, water change etc and tried to use peroxide and then used copper sulfate.
I tested with Hanna tester the first two weeks as had one borrowed from someone and now testing with Salifert as I purchased a Hanna copper tester but haven't arrived yet.

Welcome to Reef2Reef!

Just a side note: are you certain that the issue is protozoan (which is treatable with copper) and not a fluke or worm parasite? Copper won't help with those. The Avloclor *might* have helped with worms, but that depends on the dose you used. We us praziquantel for flukes in the US.

 

[AliceSz]

The peroxide wouldn’t have done much and the sulfate unless measured correctly also
Avlaclor available in Europe is one of the choices and takes a littte longer to work

Thank you. I prefered to use the Avlaclor as no fish died but yes maybe I stopped too soon. By any chance do you know how long I should have kept the treatment going for? I want to learn from my mistakes. Also can I use Avlaclor in my QT, will it be enough and will it treat velvet? Thank you for the help.
I was checking copper levels 4 x a day now it is more stable so only check it twice a day and keeping it around 0.50ppm.

 

[AliceSz]

Welcome to Reef2Reef!

Just a side note: are you certain that the issue is protozoan (which is treatable with copper) and not a fluke or worm parasite? Copper won't help with those. The Avloclor *might* have helped with worms, but that depends on the dose you used. We us praziquantel for flukes in the US.

Thank you! I am so glad to have found this page! No, this is the problem, apart from the black spots on the jewel which disappeared within days of using Avloclor there were no external symptoms at all at the start and then later it was just the mouth problem nothing else so it was a guessing game which was annoying but we didn't want to be too late on the treatment...
I am just trying to identify the type of parasite from the one symptom the tangs had, teeth on show as mouth rolled back... not much to go on. I have spoken to so many people in the UK in different shops and nobody said anything new. If you have a look at the wrasse photo he was the only one with that kind of symptom but again on the mouth and everyone was eating well since I put them in the aquarium to date, no lethargy until I started the copper treatment.
I am just hoping someone can identify or point me in the direction of what kind of parasite I am dealing with. I researched mouth rot, white spots, black spots, velvet etc but no mention on the mouth symptoms at least I haven't seen it.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Thank you. I prefered to use the Avlaclor as no fish died but yes maybe I stopped too soon. By any chance do you know how long I should have kept the treatment going for? I want to learn from my mistakes. Also can I use Avlaclor in my QT, will it be enough and will it treat velvet? Thank you for the help.
I was checking copper levels 4 x a day now it is more stable so only check it twice a day and keeping it around 0.50ppm.

Go at minimum 3 weeks

 

[AliceSz]

Go at minimum 3 weeks

Thank you. I did 3 weeks exactly probably should have continued.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Thank you! I am so glad to have found this page! No, this is the problem, apart from the black spots on the jewel which disappeared within days of using Avloclor there were no external symptoms at all at the start and then later it was just the mouth problem nothing else so it was a guessing game which was annoying but we didn't want to be too late on the treatment...
I am just trying to identify the type of parasite from the one symptom the tangs had, teeth on show as mouth rolled back... not much to go on. I have spoken to so many people in the UK in different shops and nobody said anything new. If you have a look at the wrasse photo he was the only one with that kind of symptom but again on the mouth and everyone was eating well since I put them in the aquarium to date, no lethargy until I started the copper treatment.
I am just hoping someone can identify or point me in the direction of what kind of parasite I am dealing with. I researched mouth rot, white spots, black spots, velvet etc but no mention on the mouth symptoms at least I haven't seen it.

Are you sure that the mouth issues aren’t from physical trauma? That’s the most common cause. I don’t know of any parasites that cause this, but mechanical damage can lead to secondary bacterial infections.

The most common cause of mouth damage in angels, tangs and wrasse is having their teeth snagged in a net during capture. The second common cause is from snacking into things in the tank if the fish are suddenly frightened.

 

[AliceSz]

Are you sure that the mouth issues aren’t from physical trauma? That’s the most common cause. I don’t know of any parasites that cause this, but mechanical damage can lead to secondary bacterial infections.

The most common cause of mouth damage in angels, tangs and wrasse is having their teeth snagged in a net during capture. The second common cause is from snacking into things in the tank if the fish are suddenly frightened.

Not sure. It is strange that it only came out after I stopped the medication and changed the water. They all seem to be getting on. The only one who was chased initially was the jewel but all 3 tangs and the wrasse had this mouth scratching. Coral beauty had no symptoms since I had him, he was eating well and then one morning he was just dead... jewel survived and never lost appetite. Only the wrasse had its mouth like on the photo and he died same day. Other two tangs lost apatite and started hiding but apart from teeth on show no other symptoms. It's a mystery.