Pair of clowns suddenly died. Any ideas how?

[JonahDeMarco]

So I am currently deployed, so all the info I have is from my girlfriend who is maintaining things back home.

Before I left I set up a c-vue 45 AIO (I posted a build thread) end of May-beginning of April. Did a bit of a hybrid cycle, started with 1-2 weeks with nothing but dry rock, and, water, and Dr. Tim's (with supplemental ghost feeding). Then once ammonia read near 0.1 and nitrite 0.2, i added 2 small clowns (quite expensive ones unfortunately.... lesson learned), 2 red legged hermits, and two marg snails. Then dosed seachem stability for a week. All was great, fish looked happy, healthy, ate, no erratic swimming or breathing, no spots or anything.

Fast forward to yesterday, no changes to the tank, fish, or parameters up to this point other than some usual minor algae growth. The girlfriend calls me and tells me both fish had died over night. She said they ate the day before, and nothing looked unusual with the fish before bed. She tested water on Sunday and parameters are as follows. Ammonia 0.1 NO2 0.2 NO3-3 ph 8.3. Nothing out of the ordinary. Any ideas what could kill them over night when seemingly nothing changed?

 

[Sharkbait19]

Thank you for your service. Wishing you the best!
The positive ammonia and nitrite levels would indicate that the tank is not yet cycled, and that is likely what killed the clowns.

 

[JonahDeMarco]

Thank you for your service. Wishing you the best!
The positive ammonia and nitrite levels would indicate that the tank is not yet cycled, and that is likely what killed the clowns.

So you are correct that the tank was not fully cycled, but thats what I meant by "hybrid cycle". Meaning fishless and fish in combo. In my experience/opinion cycling with 1-2 hearty fish (clowns) is very common and I have personally done it before. Those levels of ammonia and nitrite aren't even close to high enough to killing clowns, ammonia would have to be closer to 5 before serious concern of death. Also, they had been in similar levels for over a month, i believe they would have shown some sign of distress, but they were seemingly perfectly happy not 12 hrs before death. something just isn't adding up in my head.

 

[Dave1993]

Anyone that could have contaminated the water

 

[JonahDeMarco]

Anyone that could have contaminated the water

Potentially, but they tank has a glass top and a cover over the rear compartment as well. So unless she had some gnarly chemicals (and a lot of it) on her hands when she fed or changed the sock I doubt it. Possibly though

 

[JonahDeMarco]

So, I had her test the water yesterday and ammonia was between 0 and .05 and nitrite was between .05 and .1, salinity was 1.027, the only thing that was odd to me was that alk was at 5 dkh. Checked the inkbird app, no temp changes. Even more confused now..... any ideas?

 

[Tamberav]

I have never heard of a hybrid cycle or understand why anyone would dose ammonia and then add clowns. The clowns can produce their own ammonia if you were just going to cycle with fish.

I don’t personally believe that many aquaculture designer clowns are that hardy. Some are quite inbred and baby clowns can be more fragile then adults. I tend to buy from small breeders where the clowns are not many generations away from the wild parents.

Even small amounts of ammonia are toxic. Not every “hardy” fish will survive a cycle.

Unless you have a seneye monitor constantly taking ammonia readings… then there is no way of knowing how high the ammonia may have been overnight. Perhaps there was a spike in ammonia overnight from waste produced or left over by food and was broken down mostly by morning.

Velvet can kill fast but if they were breathing normally and eating then I would not suspect that.

 

[JonahDeMarco]

I have never heard of a hybrid cycle or understand why anyone would dose ammonia and then add clowns. The clowns can produce their own ammonia if you were just going to cycle with fish.

I don’t personally believe that many aquaculture designer clowns are that hardy. Some are quite inbred and baby clowns can be more fragile then adults. I tend to buy from small breeders where the clowns are not many generations away from the wild parents.

Even small amounts of ammonia are toxic. Not every “hardy” fish will survive a cycle.

Unless you have a seneye monitor constantly taking ammonia readings… then there is no way of knowing how high the ammonia may have been overnight. Perhaps there was a spike in ammonia overnight from waste produced or left over by food and was broken down mostly by morning.

Velvet can kill fast but if they were breathing normally and eating then I would not suspect that.

Maybe hybrid cycle was the wrong word. I didn't dose any ammonia. My goal was to start the cycle and get the bacteria pop built up so the fish weren't dropped into a tank with no amount of bio filter. The idea was to make the changes go easier for the fish.

The comment about designer clowns not being hardy. That does make sense, and didn't think about that. Good to know for future reference.

Could ammonia rise and then fall from .05 all the way up to deathly levels, and then back down to .05 in a single night?

 

[Tamberav]

Maybe hybrid cycle was the wrong word. I didn't dose any ammonia. My goal was to start the cycle and get the bacteria pop built up so the fish weren't dropped into a tank with no amount of bio filter. The idea was to make the changes go easier for the fish.

The comment about designer clowns not being hardy. That does make sense, and didn't think about that. Good to know for future reference.

Could ammonia rise and then fall from .05 all the way up to deathly levels, and then back down to .05 in a single night?

Ah okay.. with fishless cycling.. you can fully cycle the tank before adding them. I generally just cycle it and start with a few snails or hermit once the diatoms or gha shows up.

I would think its possible since you are adding bacteria additives. 0.5 ammonia would cause me to do a 50% water change. I know Jay states that ammonia is very toxic to fish even in small amounts. I would trust his experience. It would be damaging to the gills. Even if clowns survive this... I always wondered if it had any impact on their health long term. That is just speculation though.

It's ofc possible there is some sort of disease process but we see no evidence of it. Fish looked normal, acting normal and feeding. The fact they were eating sort of makes velvet less likely. If a fish was so infected they were going to die overnight... you would expect them to not likely eat. Velvet or such is more annoying as you will have to fallow the tank (no fish) for 45 days at 81-82 to rid the tank of it.

I am not sure if she looked at the corpses but ammonia burn usually has red gills.

Everything is just speculation without some sort of evidence to go on though.

I guess I should ask if any sort of cleaners, fabreeze, ect were used around the tank?

 

[JonahDeMarco]

Ah okay.. with fishless cycling.. you can fully cycle the tank before adding them. I generally just cycle it and start with a few snails or hermit once the diatoms or gha shows up.

I would think its possible since you are adding bacteria additives. 0.5 ammonia would cause me to do a 50% water change. I know Jay states that ammonia is very toxic to fish even in small amounts. I would trust his experience. It would be damaging to the gills. Even if clowns survive this... I always wondered if it had any impact on their health long term. That is just speculation though.

It's ofc possible there is some sort of disease process but we see no evidence of it. Fish looked normal, acting normal and feeding. The fact they were eating sort of makes velvet less likely. If a fish was so infected they were going to die overnight... you would expect them to not likely eat. Velvet or such is more annoying as you will have to fallow the tank (no fish) for 45 days at 81-82 to rid the tank of it.

I am not sure if she looked at the corpses but ammonia burn usually has red gills.

Everything is just speculation without some sort of evidence to go on though.

I guess I should ask if any sort of cleaners, fabreeze, ect were used around the tank?

It was .05 ammonia not .5, but still the point stands, ammonia=not fully cycled. I feel like at that amount it would have been a slow downward spiral, so I'm thinking maybe there was a spike over night for whatever reason, and by morning it had been broken down. I do suppose there is a chance she would have sprayed some sore of febreeze, but I do have a glass lid over the tank, so only a very minute amount, if any would have gotten in the system.

 

[Lavey29]

It was .05 ammonia not .5, but still the point stands, ammonia=not fully cycled. I feel like at that amount it would have been a slow downward spiral, so I'm thinking maybe there was a spike over night for whatever reason, and by morning it had been broken down. I do suppose there is a chance she would have sprayed some sore of febreeze, but I do have a glass lid over the tank, so only a very minute amount, if any would have gotten in the system.

Glass lids can cause problems also with 02 gas exchange.

 

[JonahDeMarco]

Glass lids can cause problems also with 02 gas exchange.

I was wondering about that, if a lack of gas exchange caused a build up of co2 which was the reason my alk was so low, and eventually there wasn't enough o2 for the fish. My only though against that theory was if the fish were literally suffocating they more than likely would have been sluggish and gasping.

 

[Lavey29]

I was wondering about that, if a lack of gas exchange caused a build up of co2 which was the reason my alk was so low, and eventually there wasn't enough o2 for the fish. My only though against that theory was if the fish were literally suffocating they more than likely would have been sluggish and gasping.

Yes but remember the C02 builds up overnight which is when you indicate the fish most likely died so no one saw the gasping.

 

[Lavey29]

And God bless you for your service and keep you safe always

 

[Tamberav]

I use glass lids on my small nanos and picos for years and biocubes have lids.

I call crap that fish would suffocate unless you lost power for awhile,

 

[JonahDeMarco]

And God bless you for your service and keep you safe always

I appreciate your support and your info!

 

[JonahDeMarco]

I use glass lids on my small nanos and picos for years and biocubes have lids.

I call crap that fish would suffocate unless you lost power for awhile,

Definitely no power outage, would have gotten an alarm from my inkbird, or at least seen a temp drop. I think I'm going to chock this one up as an overnight ammonia spike, and call it there. I'll be back from deployment in October, so the snails and crabs should produce enough ammonia to keep the bacteria going till then.

 

[Tamberav]

and if you worried about gas exchange, Leave the back of the AIO uncovered.

 

[vpierce3]

I know that a lot of people start tanks the way you did. But it really is bad practice to put fish in a tank that soon. The fact that the ammonia and nitrite levels were low is beside the point….the tank hadn’t had enough time to stabilize biologically. And because of that, sudden and unexpected parameter swings can happen for no apparent reason, leaving the fish dead and us scratching our heads.
I advocate not adding any fish before ammonia and nitrites are undetectable. Patience is a virtue in this hobby.

 

[JonahDeMarco]

I know that a lot of people start tanks the way you did. But it really is bad practice to put fish in a tank that soon. The fact that the ammonia and nitrite levels were low is beside the point….the tank hadn’t had enough time to stabilize biologically. And because of that, sudden and unexpected parameter swings can happen for no apparent reason, leaving the fish dead and us scratching our heads.
I advocate not adding any fish before ammonia and nitrites are undetectable. Patience is a virtue in this hobby.

Starting to agree with you there! The good news is that the tank will be fishless and cycling for 6 months while I'm gone, so it should be more than ready by the time I get back.