Other options besides quarantine

[Saltine]

I didn't notice this post until someone else responded to it and I admit when I read the whole thing I was stunned. Why? Because what I've quoted here is a huge contradiction.

They have fish that die for no apparent reason.
You don't see a disease.
They buy a fish a week.
And to top it all off, you're not sure why they haven't had to deal with something.

Sounds to me like they've got HUGE issues with disease and they're dealing with something every week. They're just not ADDRESSING the issue(s). Fish don't just die for no reason, it's usually from disease or poor water quality. I can't stand to think of the suffering, it makes me really sad.

Run along and QT... HUGE issues is thriving fish? And when a new one is introduced it sometimes doesn't make it? Throwing a tang in a 10 or 20g tank for weeks with just some pieces of PVC, sounds like a better option? I'd rather be dropped in a lush poisonous rain forest than an immaculate environment to sit around for three + weeks.

 

[Lionfish Lair]

I can't link, but I can give an example.

Yambot, A., & Song, Y. (2006). Immunization of grouper, Epinephelus coioides , confers protection against a protozoan parasite, Cryptocaryon irritans. Aquaculture, 260(1), 1-9.

Misumi, I., Leong, J., Takemura, A., & Lewis, T. (2012). Immune protection of Mozambique tilapia ( Oreochromis mossambicus ) exposed to different infectious doses of ectoparasite ( Cryptocaryon irritans ). Parasitology Research, 110(1), 363-372.

The question is, what do they do with this information. They can't give IP injections to all the fish and they haven't figured out an easy way to otherwise take care of it in aquaculture.

A little conclusion of one article should be OK to share... O.O

 

[Lionfish Lair]

I think this thread is taking a not so friendly turn...

There are so many appropriate ways to have a nice discussion, being silly and argumentative isn't one of them.

 

[Valkyrie]

Have a great day and I hope you and your fish never get sick

Thanks. That is my goal. I appreciate you taking the time to respond and provide the links.
Sounds like I need to look for your book, too.
I like to learn, I like options and to keep an open mind. If there's a way to boost immunity, then sign me up. This is my first SW tank (10months) and I doubt I'll live long enough to have one for as long as you've had any of yours. But you can bet I'm going to give it all I have for as long as I am able.
Again, thank-you.

 

[mgoesma]

All I wanted was people to share there introductions methodes. Not sure how we got here.

 

[Valkyrie]

I meant absolutely no disrespect.
I can only be responsible for intention, not reception.

Want to know my method?
I don't have one yet. My tank is all of 10 months old and 2 of my inhabitants came with the tank.
I'm learning. I'm trying to find my way through it all.
I'm taking bits and pieces from resources I respect.
I'm also interested in learning about the curing of sick fish that are not sick from my own fault but from the seller or a former caretaker. I want to take what is suffering and make it well. That is my goal. Not to fill my tanks of fish and coral, but to alleviate the suffering. It's why I went to school to become a vet tech, it's why I've take in the unwanted mammals, birds and fish that I have.

So as long as anyone keeps that in mind when they read my comments and questions, they'll know that that they only come from a place of deeply heartfelt, sincere love and empathy for those that have no voice.
Peace!

 

[Valkyrie]

Something about my R2R app on my phone isn't working right, I missed this post and it's not the only one that slipped through the cracks.

Do you catch my drift?

I do! Yes! It's why I've flat out refused to purchase any fish when I was given my tank last year. It came with fish and my idea was that if I could take care of them then I would start on a larger tank. I failed one of the fish, but the 2 clowns are thriving. I did buy a larger, used set up this past April, no fish came with this one. I still haven't set it up. I'm not ready. But I will set it up before the end of the year so that it's ready for next summer. I only have plans for 2 fish then and I doubt I'll get them at the same time. And yes, I'm sincerely interested in the book. You're more than welcome to pm the title to me.

Worth considering at the very least when providing accommodations for such fish...be as nice to them as you're able to be.

My fish are as important to me as my other pets. I only want to do what is best for them. Even if it's difficult.

Thank you for your time, it's appreciated.

 

[mcarroll]

The question is, what do they do with this information. They can't give IP injections to all the fish and they haven't figured out an easy way to otherwise take care of it in aquaculture.

Unfortunatley those aren't new, they are cited in the UFL Ich guide:
http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/fa164

They've apparently been "working on it" since the 1970's, so I hope nobody is holding their breath on this.

There's no digital article, but this abstract has some relevant facts:
https://pubs.er.usgs.gov/publication/70162260

Two problems exist in the development of fish vaccines: first, to provide efficacious preparations; and second, to provide economic methods for mass vaccination.

To keep the analogy going....

Even when you're in the magic bullet business, finding a magic bullet is apparently easier than finding a magic gun to shoot it.

For fun:
https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=immunization+cryptocaryon

 

[mcarroll]

Would too many people explode if I said that your fish can gain immunity to pathogens by being infected with non-related non-pathogenic organisms?

https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&q=Tetrahymena+pyriformis+immunity

And how many non-pathogenic microbes are in seawater? Apparently just the right amount!
https://www.garlandscience.com/res/pdf/9780815365174_ch01.pdf

By studying the density of microbes in different samples, Whitman
et al. (1998) estimated the total number of bacterial and archaeal cells in the marine environment (including the top 10 cm of sediment) to be somewhere in the range 10^28–10^29. The number of viruses in the oceans is estimated at about 10^30 (Suttle, 2005). This is an unimaginably huge number—it is instructive to write it in the form 1 million, million, million, million, million. If we include the subsurface sediments, this gure would be about 10 times higher. If all the marine virus particles were placed end to end, they would span about 10 million light years (100 times the distance across our own galaxy).

Repeat after me: Immunity. Immunity. Immunity. Immunity.

 

[Paul B]

I think this is a very friendly thread. I myself am typing with one hand because I am holding a Teddy Bear in the other hand.

 

[Paul B]

Would too many people explode if I said that your fish can gain immunity to pathogens by being infected with non-related non-pathogenic organisms?

https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&q=Tetrahymena+pyriformis+immunity

And how many non-pathogenic microbes are in seawater? Apparently just the right amount!
https://www.garlandscience.com/res/pdf/9780815365174_ch01.pdf



Repeat after me: Immunity. Immunity. Immunity. Immunity.

Don't you realize you are playing Russian Roulette by posting that? People may learn something then what would happen? There would no longer be a need for disease threads, these forums would go into chaos. Advertisers would dry up and the world economy would disintegrate. Third world countries would start eating more of the creatures we try to keep and Lindsey Lohan would quietly disappear along with Bieber. It would co-eless into another great extinction along with the dinosaurs.

 

[becks]

Valkyrie, it is fair because I have posted this dozens of times over many many years. I wrote many articles and even wrote a book. I just can't go over it on every thread that is about quaranting.
Here is one. https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/a-discussion-on-immunity.209701/
Here is another http://www.saltwatersmarts.com/marine-fish-heal-through-slime-3962/
and another http://www.saltwatersmarts.com/in-praise-of-fish-oil-6127/
I can go on. http://www.saltwatersmarts.com/want-healthy-spawning-fish-feed-them-properly-5010/
And my tank thread https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/tank-birthday-40-years.55423/
I am a writer on that site so you can search my name if you are interested. I am not even sure if I am allowed to post to that link and I am also tired of getting yelled at for that. I am just to old for drama.
I feel that quarantining is the " main" reason so many people have so many problems with fish. Quarantining destroys a fishes immune system that depends on bacteria and parasites to function. Now that I said that, see how many people disagree with that. Then look at how many times they posted on disease forums. This hobby is still running in 1975 theories, as there are as many disease threads now as there was in the beginning, but it is very slowly changing.

There are so many people on here and other forums that will just argue with me that I almost stopped posting these things. But articles are around, you just have to look for them.
I am tired of hearing that if you don't quarantine you are playing Russian Roulete. My tank is 45 years old for Gods sake. How long does it have to be immune before it is taken seriously? That is just because those people don't want to do a few things to get their fish immune and would rather post on disease forums. I tried to help over many years and now I am tired. That's why I wrote a book, so I wouldn't have to post it again and again.
Have a great day and I hope you and your fish never get sick

Thanks for posting the links, I'm going to find more articles you have wrote. As I also feel far to many people QT fish incorrectly so they may as well have put them straight into the DT instead of causing more unneeded stress.

 

[Paul B]

OK but remember a lot of people don't believe my theories and just want to quarantine, then treat the diseases. Invariably someone will post that their fish got ich after 72 days of quarantining and they will question their practices and make excuses as to why that happened. But it will never be that their fish lost their natural immunity during that 72 days while they were stressed beyond belief and not allowed to interact with diseases and parasites they evolved with. Quarantining of course can work. If you eliminate all possible causes of infection the fish can't get sick. At the turn of last century we used to quarantine people coming into the US because we didn't know how to control contagions. We also didn't know about immune systems, antibiotics or Supermodels.
Search on this and other forums for how many tanks contract diseases after they were quarantined. You can go back years and find loads of them. Why is that?
There are so many disease threads, Why!
So many medications, why!
Why don't I have any need for a hospital tank or medications?
I am not that smart, but my fish don't get sick, Why?
Maybe it's their immune system, what a concept!

 

[mcarroll]

I think this is a very friendly thread. I myself am typing with one hand because I am holding a Teddy Bear in the other hand.

I laughed so hard it made my wife laugh too!