OCEAMO ICP-MS and OES- New extended RO water analysis section. MS also has new DOC value (SAC254). @Randy Farley & Crew

[Reefahholic]

See below my latest ICP-MS, and also a few details…

From Andre:

From next week on, the Reef Moonshiner's ICP-MS & OES test results will have a new extended RO water analysis section with selected elements that may be good to know about, depending on the Water source used, resin in use, etc.

MS already rolls out this week with it, OES next week as well.

Thanks to Oceamo Christoph Denk for the continuous improvements on the Laboratory Tests.

Bear in mind, I also offer a full Panel Freshwater MS analysis, that can be used for a full MS analysis of your RO, RODI, Well, Tap or Freshwater Aquarium.

————————————————————

ICP- MS DOC (Dissolved Organic Carbon) summary index

From Christoph:

The unit is adsorption per meter of optical path.

We have set the ideal range now at 2-8, but those are not carved in stone, so there might be adaptions.

Too high values i do associated with unwanted cyanobacteria growth, not perfectly clear water (regarding a yellowish tint), etc. So there should be changes in husbandry (regarding skimming, absorber usage, etc).

Too low levels do not concern me, when inorganic nutrients are in check. With low SAC254 and at the same time elevated inorganic nutrients, carbon limitation can be a factor.

More to come.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Just an fyi, I’ve yet to see a problematic ro/di result with 0-1 ppm tds water.

 

[Dan_P]

Just an fyi, I’ve yet to see a problematic ro/di result with 0-1 ppm tds water.

And what about the new surrogate DOC measurement SAC254? A measurement looking for purpose?

 

[Reefahholic]

And what about the new surrogate DOC measurement SAC254? A measurement looking for purpose?

It’s almost like sending a Triton N-DOC.

N-DOC is using a dedicated TOC analyzer that directly measures TOC from what I understand. That is more accurate, but the conclusion from N-DOC and SAC254 is fundamentally the same. It’s adequate for what we’re doing. You see in the graph below the comparison of the TOC analyzer vs the SAC254 readings.

We’re more interested in the irregular trending of this value. For example…if you increased from 3 to 7 in four weeks that’s significant. If you’re only increasing by increments of 1, then it’s not of interest really. It’s a great value added to ICP-MS for free where we can learn new information about a system, and maybe piece together why some systems are having problems.

I’m sure you guys saw this article from Salem already, but for those that haven’t I’ll link it below:

DOC is The Most Important Parameter For A Healthy Reef Tank: Here’s a New Method to Manage It | Reef Builders | The Reef and Saltwater Aquarium Blog

In this article, I will provide an overview of my take on the current zeitgeist of reefing and explain why the entire industry is ignoring a critical aspect of coral care. I will explain what issues…

reefbuilders.com

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I’m just concerned about lumping all organic molecules into an aggregate number and then trying to draw conclusions when the specific organics comprising it will vary considerably from tank to tank.

IMO, this is like noting the number of mammals living near a place you are camping. Should you be concerned and arm yourself with a gun, or happy and get out your camera, or just be ready to pet your neighbor’s dogs?

We (including scientists) are at a huge loss in progressing here since it is so difficult to quantify or even qualitatively describe the organics present.

 

[Miami Reef]

IMO, this is like noting the number of mammals living near a place you are camping. Should you be concerned and arm yourself with a gun, or happy and get out your camera, or just be ready to pet your neighbor’s dogs?

That’s a fantastic analogy!

 

[billyocean]

Do we know whether or not a higher or lower number within range is better? Or, is it more of a "within range but watch for trends" that is more important?

 

[Miami Reef]

It will be interesting to see the differences between systems that use particular filtration and those that don’t. If it’s a free add-on, why not? It isn’t wise to assume anything about the value; it’s just for fun and curiosity.

 

[billyocean]

It will be interesting to see the differences between systems that use particular filtration and those that don’t. If it’s a free add-on, why not? It isn’t wise to assume anything about the value. It’s just for fun and curiosity.

I emailed oceamo when I received mine. Was told it's still early in the understanding which is fine..I like where the head space is. It will.be cool if we as a community can help dial it in. By help..I just mean posting results because I'm in no way a scientist..lol.

 

[GARRIGA]

Jessica Simpson once said "I don't know what 1080p is but I want it". Works for me. I'll post results. Those smarter than I can decipher and perhaps we all learn from it. Especially those of us having abandoned 5g buckets long ago and auto WC not feasible.

 

[areefer01]

IMO, this is like noting the number of mammals living near a place you are camping. Should you be concerned and arm yourself with a gun, or happy and get out your camera, or just be ready to pet your neighbor’s dogs?

Lol! On a somewhat related note we do have to check the bacteria levels before diving some areas of Monterey due to Sea Lions. Too high levels can't dive or if they have babies we don't want to disturb.

See below my latest ICP-MS, and also a few details…

From Andre:

From next week on, the Reef Moonshiner's ICP-MS & OES test results will have a new extended RO water analysis section with selected elements that may be good to know about, depending on the Water source used, resin in use, etc.

MS already rolls out this week with it, OES next week as well.

Thanks to Oceamo Christoph Denk for the continuous improvements on the Laboratory Tests.

Bear in mind, I also offer a full Panel Freshwater MS analysis, that can be used for a full MS analysis of your RO, RODI, Well, Tap or Freshwater Aquarium.

————————————————————

ICP- MS DOC (Dissolved Organic Carbon) summary index

From Christoph:

The unit is adsorption per meter of optical path.

We have set the ideal range now at 2-8, but those are not carved in stone, so there might be adaptions.

Too high values i do associated with unwanted cyanobacteria growth, not perfectly clear water (regarding a yellowish tint), etc. So there should be changes in husbandry (regarding skimming, absorber usage, etc).

Too low levels do not concern me, when inorganic nutrients are in check. With low SAC254 and at the same time elevated inorganic nutrients, carbon limitation can be a factor.

More to come.

Isn't Triton doing something similar or has been? Parker was just talking to the Triton folks and I thought this was talked about.

 

[Reefahholic]

Lol! On a somewhat related note we do have to check the bacteria levels before diving some areas of Monterey due to Sea Lions. Too high levels can't dive or if they have babies we don't want to disturb.



Isn't Triton doing something similar or has been? Parker was just talking to the Triton folks and I thought this was talked about.

Yes, Triton does N-DOC testing,

 

[Reefahholic]

I’m just concerned about lumping all organic molecules into an aggregate number and then trying to draw conclusions when the specific organics comprising it will vary considerably from tank to tank.

Those are my thoughts as well. There are so many factors that can play into this. It’s gonna be hard to really know, but I think after we see the numbers are multiple tanks having issues and start asking questions maybe we can narrow some things down. Highest number I’ve seen so far has been 23. I’ve seen one person below 2.

 

[areefer01]

Those are my thoughts as well. There are so many factors that can play into this. It’s gonna be hard to really know, but I think after we see the numbers are multiple tanks having issues and start asking questions maybe we can narrow some things down. Highest number I’ve seen so far has been 23. I’ve seen one person below 2.

Results over time each with a full display photo (minimum) may help.

Reminds me of the many different meanings behind the number '33' on a bottle of Rolling Rock...

 

[billyocean]

In the article they reference orp and mine stays pretty high. Never really knew any relevance but when it would get around 300ish things didn't look as good.

 

[Reefahholic]

I emailed oceamo when I received mine. Was told it's still early in the understanding which is fine..I like where the head space is. It will.be cool if we as a community can help dial it in. By help..I just mean posting results because I'm in no way a scientist..lol.

Yes, we’re all basically learning at this point. I feel that everybody’s input is valuable. As a community we should be able to zero in on issues if we’re asking the right questions. I think we’ll eventually see some patterns start to emerge.

 

[areefer01]

In the article they reference orp and mine stays pretty high. Never really knew any relevance but when it would get around 300ish things didn't look as good.

A dip could be caused from something simple as a water change and the display would still look grand. I see mind dip for a couple of days then slowly climb back.

 

[billyocean]

A dip could be caused from something simple as a water change and the display would still look grand. I see mind dip for a couple of days then slowly climb back.

I do see that with waterchanges which is fine. It's been a while since I've seen it low like that without wc or additives. Don't know what made it low before as I wasn't astute enough to diagnose it at the time. But yes...the wc is expected and some additives do it immediately too but my high used to be 350ish

 

[Dan_P]

I’m just concerned about lumping all organic molecules into an aggregate number and then trying to draw conclusions when the specific organics comprising it will vary considerably from tank to tank.

IMO, this is like noting the number of mammals living near a place you are camping. Should you be concerned and arm yourself with a gun, or happy and get out your camera, or just be ready to pet your neighbor’s dogs?

We (including scientists) are at a huge loss in progressing here since it is so difficult to quantify or even qualitatively describe the organics present.

DOC measurements might be just another number that we obtain and then spend countless hours of social media time arguing about what it means.

I read the article you shared and a red flag went up when I read “DOC is the most important parameter for a healthy reef”. That’s like saying of the thousands of rivets holding an airplane together, there is one that is most important.

 

[Reefahholic]

I read the article you shared and a red flag went up when I read “DOC is the most important parameter for a healthy reef”.

I can’t say I agree with that either. It’s certainly not the most important parameter.