Not sure what is going on.

[lci3447]

So a bit of background. Tank fully cycled in April, so 5 months old. 400L so about 100G.

Stocking - Black leopard wrasse, coris wrasse (yep was duped as a newbie not knowing the difference between Christmas and Coris species as my first fish but doing ok and not a bully thankfully), double banded rabbit fish, snowflake eel and a now deceased chromis (my Canary in the mine).

Various coral, zoas, goni, hammers (2 frogspawn now RIP) and elegance.

Had a heater fail and noticed on the 8th Sept (now have an inkbird so it never happens again!). Temp dropped to 20c and slowly brought it back up.

I noticed because fish were stressed, (rabbit and chromis) and the others not coming out.

The stress event showed up in rabbit and chromis, the others seemed to be fine once water was warmed and came out again.

The rabbit showed signs of ich, white spots and the chromis did too and started surfing the jets late at night. Treated with vertonex as I needed something reef safe, not copper. The chromis didn't make it but took 2 days for body to appear (as have lots of caves for the eel and didn't want to further stress ripping up the tank). Had an ammonia spike from the chromis but the tank quickly responded so wasn't an issue.

The rabbit however is doing ok. When I say ok, can't get enough of green nori, but still has spots and has poor appetite with mysis. However, my understanding of the ich cycle is they erupt, and then reinfect. The issue is, the spots are still only on his fins and eye, in the exact same places after weeks.

Phosphates are high from the treatment so using drops for that, but also indulging the nori as it's what he seems to need, raising it further.

All parameters seem ok, salinity 1.024, ph 8.1, ammonia 0, (don't test nitrites often so no idea), nitrates at 20ppm but also reflective of a hana result on 0.09 phosphate and if I'm reading it right the ratio doesn't seem weird (although less than that ideal!).

So the question. Is this ich or something else I'm dealing with. Had my 2 frogspawn bailout, everyone else seems happy, but the rabbit fish just has spots that won't go away.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

So a bit of background. Tank fully cycled in April, so 5 months old. 400L so about 100G.

Stocking - Black leopard wrasse, coris wrasse (yep was duped as a newbie not knowing the difference between Christmas and Coris species as my first fish but doing ok and not a bully thankfully), double banded rabbit fish, snowflake eel and a now deceased chromis (my Canary in the mine).

Various coral, zoas, goni, hammers (2 frogspawn now RIP) and elegance.

Had a heater fail and noticed on the 8th Sept (now have an inkbird so it never happens again!). Temp dropped to 20c and slowly brought it back up.

I noticed because fish were stressed, (rabbit and chromis) and the others not coming out.

The stress event showed up in rabbit and chromis, the others seemed to be fine once water was warmed and came out again.

The rabbit showed signs of ich, white spots and the chromis did too and started surfing the jets late at night. Treated with vertonex as I needed something reef safe, not copper. The chromis didn't make it but took 2 days for body to appear (as have lots of caves for the eel and didn't want to further stress ripping up the tank). Had an ammonia spike from the chromis but the tank quickly responded so wasn't an issue.

The rabbit however is doing ok. When I say ok, can't get enough of green nori, but still has spots and has poor appetite with mysis. However, my understanding of the ich cycle is they erupt, and then reinfect. The issue is, the spots are still only on his fins and eye, in the exact same places after weeks.

Phosphates are high from the treatment so using drops for that, but also indulging the nori as it's what he seems to need, raising it further.

All parameters seem ok, salinity 1.024, ph 8.1, ammonia 0, (don't test nitrites often so no idea), nitrates at 20ppm but also reflective of a hana result on 0.09 phosphate and if I'm reading it right the ratio doesn't seem weird (although less than that ideal!).

So the question. Is this ich or something else I'm dealing with. Had my 2 frogspawn bailout, everyone else seems happy, but the rabbit fish just has spots that won't go away.

Hi, welcome to Reef2Reef!

The comment that the spots on your foxface are in the exact same area after weeks, points to this being something other than ich. Can you post photos/videos?

If it is ich, or another protozoan: I had to look up Vertonex, as we don't have that in the US. It's a mixture of malachite green and quinine. Malachite green is not reef safe at normal treatment levels, so they must be adjusting the dose downward quite a bit. I've never used quinine in a reef as I was told it is not reef safe either - my guess is both drugs are used very sparingly so as not to kill the invertebrates. Trouble is, like many similar strategies used in US products, the resulting medications is also "ich safe". These products are marketed not because they work well, but because there is no official oversight for their development, and there is a huge demand.

Jay

 

[lci3447]

Hi, welcome to Reef2Reef!

The comment that the spots on your foxface are in the exact same area after weeks, points to this being something other than ich. Can you post photos/videos?

If it is ich, or another protozoan: I had to look up Vertonex, as we don't have that in the US. It's a mixture of malachite green and quinine. Malachite green is not reef safe at normal treatment levels, so they must be adjusting the dose downward quite a bit. I've never used quinine in a reef as I was told it is not reef safe either - my guess is both drugs are used very sparingly so as not to kill the invertebrates. Trouble is, like many similar strategies used in US products, the resulting medications is also "ich safe". These products are marketed not because they work well, but because there is no official oversight for their development, and there is a huge demand.

Jay

 

[lci3447]

Thanks Jay. So tonight, vs a week ago, although seems very stressed and hard to show the actual spots. But they really haven't moved from what I can observe leading me to think it's something else.

And yes the malachite green in it is questionable but reef safe I believe, although causes a phosphate increase, so only reef safe if no sps. Also there are problems with food grade eels having high levels that are not safe for human consumption as it was a popular treatment at one point (or so I was made to believe).

I'm just looking for an answer, as I love my rabbit fish. Not a foxface but a double banded guy ( not sure that matters).

I'm not so worried about the corals (rip frogspawn) but the rabbit fish I don't want to torture from repeated stress.

Hi, welcome to Reef2Reef!

The comment that the spots on your foxface are in the exact same area after weeks, points to this being something other than ich. Can you post photos/videos?

If it is ich, or another protozoan: I had to look up Vertonex, as we don't have that in the US. It's a mixture of malachite green and quinine. Malachite green is not reef safe at normal treatment levels, so they must be adjusting the dose downward quite a bit. I've never used quinine in a reef as I was told it is not reef safe either - my guess is both drugs are used very sparingly so as not to kill the invertebrates. Trouble is, like many similar strategies used in US products, the resulting medications is also "ich safe". These products are marketed not because they work well, but because there is no official oversight for their development, and there is a huge demand.

Jay

Thanks Jay. So tonight, vs a week ago, although seems very stressed and hard to show the actual spots. But they really haven't moved from what I can observe leading me to think it's something else.

And yes the malachite green in it is questionable but reef safe I believe, although causes a phosphate increase, so only reef safe if no sps. Also there are problems with food grade eels having high levels that are not safe for human consumption as it was a popular treatment at one point (or so I was made to believe). But I am new at this so I might have it all wrong

I'm just looking for an answer, as I love my rabbit fish. Not a foxface but a double banded guy ( not sure that matters).

I'm not so worried about the corals (rip frogspawn) but the rabbit fish I don't want to torture from repeated stress.

 

[lci3447]

Lol, sorry about the double post! Obviously the Internet and reef tanks outsmart my tech skills

 

[lci3447]

Also snails are doing ok too. The leopard wrasse, coris and eel have no signs of ich, so I'm stumped

 

[Jay Hemdal]

The videos are just tantalizingly far enough away that I can't come to a clear diagnosis. I think I can see white spots on the fish's fins. If so, that is more a symptom of them being ich trophonts than if the spots are only on the fish's body.

I think what you have here is a case where ich is being partially managed, so is just showing up on the one fish, and then, no in an acute fashion.

Sidenote on malachite green - it is a human carcinogen, so it was removed from any use with food fishes. I'm not sure how it could contribute to phosphate though, none of the formulations that I'm aware of contain any P.

Jay

 

[lci3447]

The videos are just tantalizingly far enough away that I can't come to a clear diagnosis. I think I can see white spots on the fish's fins. If so, that is more a symptom of them being ich trophonts than if the spots are only on the fish's body.

I think what you have here is a case where ich is being partially managed, so is just showing up on the one fish, and then, no in an acute fashion.

Sidenote on malachite green - it is a human carcinogen, so it was removed from any use with food fishes. I'm not sure how it could contribute to phosphate though, none of the formulations that I'm aware of contain any P.

Jay

Hi Jay,

Rodger (the rabbit fish) is eating well again, there are still a couple of spots (I think??) but none of the others have shown any so I'm going with ich management as I don't have the space to separate out every one. I won't be adding anything for a while either.

I did manage to get a better video. What I've been worried about is the tip of the rear fin being white, not like salt but might be a secondary bacterial infection? His eyes also seem to have a bit of that as well.

It doesn't seem to look like the salt and it hasn't moved in a a few days. I'd appreciate any advice.

Also thanks for the thoughts on the malichie I was told it the treatment can raise phosphates (has quinine hydrochloride too) but I have now managed to get the phosphates under control and corals are happier for it. I also did see reports of eel meat ban from China when it was found to contain it so was very conservative and careful in handling it.

I know you are very informative about on these reef safe 'treatments' being unregulated and not effective, hence why I'll go down the management path now. I appreciate all your posts, it helps all of us newbies learn a lot more.

 

[lci3447]

Hi Jay,

Rodger (the rabbit fish) is eating well again, there are still a couple of spots (I think??) but none of the others have shown any so I'm going with ich management as I don't have the space to separate out every one. I won't be adding anything for a while either.

I did manage to get a better video. What I've been worried about is the tip of the rear fin being white, not like salt but might be a secondary bacterial infection? His eyes also seem to have a bit of that as well.

It doesn't seem to look like the salt and it hasn't moved in a a few days. I'd appreciate any advice.

Also thanks for the thoughts on the malichie I was told it the treatment can raise phosphates (has quinine hydrochloride too) but I have now managed to get the phosphates under control and corals are happier for it. I also did see reports of eel meat ban from China when it was found to contain it so was very conservative and careful in handling it.

I know you are very informative about on these reef safe 'treatments' being unregulated and not effective, hence why I'll go down the management path now. I appreciate all your posts, it helps all of us newbies learn a lot more.

*Dorsal fin, not rear

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Hi Jay,

Rodger (the rabbit fish) is eating well again, there are still a couple of spots (I think??) but none of the others have shown any so I'm going with ich management as I don't have the space to separate out every one. I won't be adding anything for a while either.

I did manage to get a better video. What I've been worried about is the tip of the rear fin being white, not like salt but might be a secondary bacterial infection? His eyes also seem to have a bit of that as well.

It doesn't seem to look like the salt and it hasn't moved in a a few days. I'd appreciate any advice.

Also thanks for the thoughts on the malichie I was told it the treatment can raise phosphates (has quinine hydrochloride too) but I have now managed to get the phosphates under control and corals are happier for it. I also did see reports of eel meat ban from China when it was found to contain it so was very conservative and careful in handling it.

I know you are very informative about on these reef safe 'treatments' being unregulated and not effective, hence why I'll go down the management path now. I appreciate all your posts, it helps all of us newbies learn a lot more.

The rabbitfish does have an issue with erosion on the back of its dorsal fine, but it is also breathing heavy and its eyes look cloudy and I can still see spots on the body. I think there is some other infection(s) going on here than just the fin. The cloudy eyes and rapid breathing can be a sign of flukes, and the spots could be ich of course. I think it is beyond the point of being able to be "managed" in your display tank. You could treat the main tank with praziquantel, that would help if it is flukes, but it won't help with the ich spots at all. Do you have the ability to move the fish to a treatment tank? Then, there is the question, what about any other fish it has been exposed to?

Jay

 

[lci3447]

The rabbitfish does have an issue with erosion on the back of its dorsal fine, but it is also breathing heavy and its eyes look cloudy and I can still see spots on the body. I think there is some other infection(s) going on here than just the fin. The cloudy eyes and rapid breathing can be a sign of flukes, and the spots could be ich of course. I think it is beyond the point of being able to be "managed" in your display tank. You could treat the main tank with praziquantel, that would help if it is flukes, but it won't help with the ich spots at all. Do you have the ability to move the fish to a treatment tank? Then, there is the question, what about any other fish it has been exposed to?

Jay

Observed yesterday day, none of the other fish seem bothered. I didn't get video of the coris but was out looking for food this morning, (just very shy). I did a fresh water dip on the rabbit fish a few days ago no flukes in the water, I assume I'm looking for white spots in the water. Will be looking on marketplace for a QT tank.

You can see the black leopard wrasse and the snowflake eel in video 2. I haven't introduced anything recently (for a month or so) so I feel like the tank crash was the factor. But it feels awful to have a sick fish and just see them 'survive'.

I am so worried about Rodger, if you say his breathing is wonky, I'm just worried

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Does the rabbit fish look improved after the dip (in terms of breathing rate)? You won’t see most flukes in dip water without a microscope, only one type is large enough to see that way. If the fish improves temporarily, a day or two after a dip, that is a good indication that it has flukes. You would then treat the whole tank with praziquantel.
The fish may well have a protozoan infection and dips won’t help with that.
Jay

 

[lci3447]

Does the rabbit fish look improved after the dip (in terms of breathing rate)? You won’t see most flukes in dip water without a microscope, only one type is large enough to see that way. If the fish improves temporarily, a day or two after a dip, that is a good indication that it has flukes. You would then treat the whole tank with praziquantel.
The fish may well have a protozoan infection and dips won’t help with that.
Jay

Good point. After a dip the rabbit fish just swimming around the tank like in shock, was glad for a lid as looked like launching itself out! Also fresh water dip, was also like worried when he took a few moments to right himself in the tank again.. Did try to get the temps right, and the catch it without stress. But yes,did improve after dip and has gone backwards in the few days afterwards. Getting praziquantel to see if that can save him.

Still on FB market place as totally need a QT tank.