Nitrate Reactor/Denitrator (feed or not to feed?)

[Karen00]

Hello all,

I tried doing searches here as well as general Google searches but can't seem to find an answer so I thought I would just post the question to the experts.

For transparency this question is for my freshwater setup but I assume will also apply to my saltwater setup once I get that going.

I've been running my freshwater setup for years (15g) mostly understocked so nitrates have never been an issue but recently I have been running it slightly overstocked because of some new fry that came from a pair of my fish so nitrates need to be controlled now. I have been controlling them through water changes but I don't like wasting water like that (even though it's going into my garden) when I know there are better ways of managing it. Not to mention it's time consuming to do the water changes.

One thing I have always found amazing with the new technologies for saltwater is the detailed level to which parameters can be managed through things like media reactors so I thought I would try adding one to my FW setup. For some reason there isn't a lot of info for FW environments so I can only assume people are content with doing water changes or are utilizing other methods.

After about a month of researching reactors I was about to purchase one when I somehow found a post that referenced Albert Thiel and it talked about the need to feed a nitrate reactor (every 3 to 7 days according to his reference). In all of my research this never came up and the reactors I looked at only had the incoming and outgoing tubes so there seemed no easy way to feed the reactor.

At this point I started researching feeding nitrate reactors and came across a diy reactor that incorporated a third tube for feeding and then I came across a premade reactor by Aquaripure that also has this feeding tube.

So now I'm confused. Is feeding needed? If so how do people do this when there is no separate tube? Just open the reactor weekly and feed it? Also what is the best food? I read about sugar and vodka. I think there is also stuff you can buy but I don't know what they use.

My only other question is the type of media to use. I had pretty much settled on ceramic rings but maybe this isn't the best option. I also know of the bio-pellets and I think they provide a source of food but they eventually break down and have to be replaced. I was hoping to avoid this by using the ceramic rings.

At this point I haven't purchased anything until I sort out the path I need to take.

Thanks in advance for any advice provided.

 

[susan ingram]

I'm not sure and will be setting up one in my reef soon.... let's bump this

 

[Karen00]

I'm not sure and will be setting up one in my reef soon.... let's bump this

Thanks for the speedy reply. I had assumed the denitrifying bacteria got whatever food it needed from the water running through the reactor which is why I was so surprised to see the reference to feeding them. I will be glad to hear about your experience.

I was thinking of proceeding with my setup to see what happens. From the sounds of it you quickly know if things aren't working properly with a denitrator because of the sulfur smell.

 

[susan ingram]

Thanks for the speedy reply. I had assumed the denitrifying bacteria got whatever food it needed from the water running through the reactor which is why I was so surprised to see the reference to feeding them. I will be glad to hear about your experience.

I was thinking of proceeding with my setup to see what happens. From the sounds of it you quickly know if things aren't working properly with a denitrator because of the sulfur smell.

That's my understanding as well. I have done FW before getting into SW just recently. I think it has something to do with the differences in the water parameters between the two, you may not need to feed the reactor, or at least not as often. Totally unsure but following this with interest, lots of folks here have experience with both so I am sure an answer will come soon

 

[1ByLand2BySea]

Anaerobic Denigrators have been around for a very period of time and have been used for FW and SW. And you do need to feed (Carbon dose) the bacteria in the reactor. You can splice the line feeding the reactor and add a RO valve and RO tubing to be able to inject the food with a syringe. And Vodka might be easier and better choice than sugar.

Please avoid using a highly porous media like ceramic cause it get over populated with bacteria colony and clogged up. Old school bio balls are the best.

There is also sulfur based media and Bio balls that have the carbon source integrated in the material. That could eliminate the feeding all together. I would recommend reading up on the process and pros and cons of different material.

This link is related to Deltec Nitrate Filters which is dedicated toward SW aquarium. But look up the manual for them and it is one best material out there that explains how they work and how to use them. Concept and principal is the same for FW and SW.

 

[1ByLand2BySea]

Anaerobic Denigrators have been around for a very period of time and have been used for FW and SW. And you do need to feed (Carbon dose) the bacteria in the reactor. You can splice the line feeding the reactor and add a RO valve and RO tubing to be able to inject the food with a syringe. And Vodka might be easier and better choice than sugar.

Please avoid using a highly porous media like ceramic cause it get over populated with bacteria colony and clogged up. Old school bio balls are the best.

There is also sulfur based media and Bio balls that have the carbon source integrated in the material. That could eliminate the feeding all together. I would recommend reading up on the process and pros and cons of different material.

This link is related to Deltec Nitrate Filters which is dedicated toward SW aquarium. But look up the manual for them and it is one best material out there that explains how they work and how to use them. Concept and principal is the same for FW and SW.

Nitrate Filters | D-D The Aquarium Solution

www.theaquariumsolution.com

 

[1ByLand2BySea]

NFP616 | D-D The Aquarium Solution

www.theaquariumsolution.com

 

[Karen00]

Nitrate Filters | D-D The Aquarium Solution

www.theaquariumsolution.com

Thank you for this and the link. I will read that immediately. Thanks also for the suggestion on how to modify a reactor to add a feeding tube!

I have done a lot of research into the different media types and thought the ceramic rings made the most sense but after reading what you wrote I will rethink that choice. I might just go with the bioballs. I think the bio-pellets are probably the optimal choice because they do provide the necessary food from what I read (which means I wouldn't have to modify a standard reactor) but it sounds like they break down fairly quickly which means replacing them often and they aren't cheap.

Thanks again for this! I have a bit more reading to do.

 

[nbooks]

My father runs an aquaripure system on his 50 gallon that he has had for ~25 years. He pretty much swears by it at this point and claims to only do water changes about every 3 months, feeds with vodka as far as i know.

 

[Karen00]

My father runs an aquaripure system on his 50 gallon that he has had for ~25 years. He pretty much swears by it at this point and claims to only do water changes about every 3 months, feeds with vodka as far as i know.

Thank you so much for this!! I keep going back to this manufacturer. I looked at the Deltec mentioned in this post by another member but their smallest unit is too big for my setup. The sales guy said I would have a hard time controlling it. The aquaripure has a good range that pretty much covers every tank size.
Can you get a bit more info for me from your father? I would like to know:
- Is he running it on a saltwater or freshwater? I think the process is the same for both but it's good to know what environment he has
- Which model does he have?
- What type of media does he use in it and how much?
- Can you confirm if he doses with vodka and if so how much and how often? I know this is often based on how high your nitrates are but I need a reference point.
- What size pump does he have on it. I don't think they come with pumps.
- Does he have to clean the reactor? If so how often? Some posts said to clean them monthly because the biofilm buildup can stop the water from flowing and the reactor can crash but other posts don't mention this.
- If he has any other advice such as how he started it up (water flow, feeding, etc) and if his maintenance of it changed over time (water flow, feeding, etc) as nitrates dropped that would be helpful. For example in one post I read that you start it off with just a slow drip to get the bacteria started but once the colony starts to develop you have to increase the water flow but other posts don't mention having to increase the water flow

I really had no idea how fine a dance it was getting one of these started and keeping it operational. Getting this info from someone who has had one going successfully for so long with be so appreciated!! At this point I'm so confused about how to get one of these going that I might stick to water changes. LOL

 

[1ByLand2BySea]

Thank you for this and the link. I will read that immediately. Thanks also for the suggestion on how to modify a reactor to add a feeding tube!

I have done a lot of research into the different media types and thought the ceramic rings made the most sense but after reading what you wrote I will rethink that choice. I might just go with the bioballs. I think the bio-pellets are probably the optimal choice because they do provide the necessary food from what I read (which means I wouldn't have to modify a standard reactor) but it sounds like they break down fairly quickly which means replacing them often and they aren't cheap.

Thanks again for this! I have a bit more reading to do.

I personally don't have any knowledge of how bio-pellets work in a FW environment or ever used them. But Aqua-Medic which they are no longer active in US market have a bioball with the carbon source embedded in it called Deniball. It lasted long and worked well in fresh and salt.
You may be able to order it on overseas online stores.
But after all, vodka dosing is a lot simpler and you have a far better control over the outcome. You cn even invest in a dose to do the feeding for you automatically.

 

[Karen00]

I personally don't have any knowledge of how bio-pellets work in a FW environment or ever used them. But Aqua-Medic which they are no longer active in US market have a bioball with the carbon source embedded in it called Deniball. It lasted long and worked well in fresh and salt.
You may be able to order it on overseas online stores.
But after all, vodka dosing is a lot simpler and you have a far better control over the outcome. You cn even invest in a dose to do the feeding for you automatically.

I'm leaning toward vodka dosing and am looking to add a dosing pump with the setup. Question: If I dose with vodka then would I look for bioballs that don't have the carbon source added or would I only start dosing the vodka once the carbon source has been depleted? I think I read most bioballs are made of porous plastic (or something like that) so I'm assuming the bioballs would still be usable even after the carbon source has been used up.

Thanks for the info you're providing. It's very helpful! I'm even more amazed at how mother nature seems to so effortlessly manage everything. One becomes acutely aware at the difficulty trying to replicate mother nature in a closed system. I'm humbled!

 

[1ByLand2BySea]

I'm leaning toward vodka dosing and am looking to add a dosing pump with the setup. Question: If I dose with vodka then would I look for bioballs that don't have the carbon source added or would I only start dosing the vodka once the carbon source has been depleted? I think I read most bioballs are made of porous plastic (or something like that) so I'm assuming the bioballs would still be usable even after the carbon source has been used up.

Thanks for the info you're providing. It's very helpful! I'm even more amazed at how mother nature seems to so effortlessly manage everything. One becomes acutely aware at the difficulty trying to replicate mother nature in a closed system. I'm humbled!

This is the great thing about this hobby to learn about Mother Earth and nature and endlessly be amazed every step of the way as you learn more about it.
As far as I know most bio-balls are not that porous but have a great surface area for the bacteria to grow on it.
And Yes, you won't be using carbon sources embedded bio-balls and Vodka. Good thing is that with the amount of dosed vodka and the flow thru the reactor you can control the NO3 to the level you desire.
This type of reactor is very easy and effective for FW use and as long as you understand the principal and elements involved. If you ever want to get precise and fancy about it, you can use a continuous dosing/metering pump in conjunction with a redox controller. I am pretty sure that is explained in the Deltec user manual or at least it used to be in the past.
What are you keeping in this tank? Is it a planted tank?

 

[Karen00]

This is the great thing about this hobby to learn about Mother Earth and nature and endlessly be amazed every step of the way as you learn more about it.
As far as I know most bio-balls are not that porous but have a great surface area for the bacteria to grow on it.
And Yes, you won't be using carbon sources embedded bio-balls and Vodka. Good thing is that with the amount of dosed vodka and the flow thru the reactor you can control the NO3 to the level you desire.
This type of reactor is very easy and effective for FW use and as long as you understand the principal and elements involved. If you ever want to get precise and fancy about it, you can use a continuous dosing/metering pump in conjunction with a redox controller. I am pretty sure that is explained in the Deltec user manual or at least it used to be in the past.
What are you keeping in this tank? Is it a planted tank?

Thanks for this! Yes, it is a planted tank but it seems the plants aren't doing as good a job on nitrates as I hoped they would or maybe my expectations are too high. My setup is a coldwater, low tech (hardly any lights and no co2), high flow (riverine) type of environment. The plants which are primarily cryps are doing really well but are small and slow growing which is not surprising given my conditions. To supplement this I added a bunch of emergent pothos plants and those things love the setup. They're growing like crazy.

About six months ago I had a similar situation where my fish spawned and suddenly my tank was running over stocked. I mistakenly thought all of these plants were taking care of the nitrates so I didn't pay attention to my parameters until I had a couple of my long time adults suddenly die. That's when I pulled out the test kit and found ammonia and nitrites were 0 but my nitrates were through the roof. Suddenly it was a scramble to get that under control through massive water changes. I managed to stabilize the tank and I learned my lesson to check parameters when there are changes to the tank and to not assume my plants are handling the nitrates.

I'm kind of surprised the plants didn't do a better job so either I still don't have enough plants in the tank or they're not the right type of plants or because it's low tech their growth isn't enough for them to draw upon the nitrates. I read that floating plants do a better job of nitrate absorption but every floater I tried died. I think because the flow is too much for them.

When my fish spawned this time I was quick to keep on top of testing and started the water changes the minute I saw the nitrates starting to rise. Water changes have been working but now I'm in search of a better method which has brought me to a nitrate reactor as a possible solution but it seems there is a fair bit to get one of these working properly. I feel like a lot of what I have read has only given me part of the story which led me to doing this post. I downloaded the Deltec manual and have just started to read it. Unfortunately their smallest reactor is still too big for the size of tanks I have so I won't be getting one of theirs but hopefully I can still use the ideas from their manual. I came across an aquaripure (or maybe it's aquariapure) reactor that is similar to the Deltec but they have a broader range of models for all sizes of tanks. Or maybe I will try to DIY one.

 

[1ByLand2BySea]

Thanks for this! Yes, it is a planted tank but it seems the plants aren't doing as good a job on nitrates as I hoped they would or maybe my expectations are too high. My setup is a coldwater, low tech (hardly any lights and no co2), high flow (riverine) type of environment. The plants which are primarily cryps are doing really well but are small and slow growing which is not surprising given my conditions. To supplement this I added a bunch of emergent pothos plants and those things love the setup. They're growing like crazy.

About six months ago I had a similar situation where my fish spawned and suddenly my tank was running over stocked. I mistakenly thought all of these plants were taking care of the nitrates so I didn't pay attention to my parameters until I had a couple of my long time adults suddenly die. That's when I pulled out the test kit and found ammonia and nitrites were 0 but my nitrates were through the roof. Suddenly it was a scramble to get that under control through massive water changes. I managed to stabilize the tank and I learned my lesson to check parameters when there are changes to the tank and to not assume my plants are handling the nitrates.

I'm kind of surprised the plants didn't do a better job so either I still don't have enough plants in the tank or they're not the right type of plants or because it's low tech their growth isn't enough for them to draw upon the nitrates. I read that floating plants do a better job of nitrate absorption but every floater I tried died. I think because the flow is too much for them.

When my fish spawned this time I was quick to keep on top of testing and started the water changes the minute I saw the nitrates starting to rise. Water changes have been working but now I'm in search of a better method which has brought me to a nitrate reactor as a possible solution but it seems there is a fair bit to get one of these working properly. I feel like a lot of what I have read has only given me part of the story which led me to doing this post. I downloaded the Deltec manual and have just started to read it. Unfortunately their smallest reactor is still too big for the size of tanks I have so I won't be getting one of theirs but hopefully I can still use the ideas from their manual. I came across an aquaripure (or maybe it's aquariapure) reactor that is similar to the Deltec but they have a broader range of models for all sizes of tanks. Or maybe I will try to DIY one.

Plants do not absorb nitrate as much as most think and fish can produce it much faster than they can use up. Also in very high nitrates, plants don't function well and even slow down the uptake even further.
I was not suggesting you should buy Deltec but use their manual as a source of information. I am not even certain if those are sold on US market at this point. But overall its a very simple concept and you can't go wrong with what brand you use as long as it is well built.

 

[Karen00]

Plants do not absorb nitrate as much as most think and fish can produce it much faster than they can use up. Also in very high nitrates, plants don't function well and even slow down the uptake even further.
I was not suggesting you should buy Deltec but use their manual as a source of information. I am not even certain if those are sold on US market at this point. But overall its a very simple concept and you can't go wrong with what brand you use as long as it is well built.

Sorry... I know you weren't suggesting to buy the Deltec. I was more trying to convey my disappointment that I couldn't buy one simply because my tanks are too small. Haha So far I haven't found too many units that have the feeding tube built in. I can only assume it's because the others are designed to use media that already have the carbon source available so you don't have to feed.

As for plants and nitrates... Thanks for your input. I think my expectations of plants controlling nitrates were set way too high so the near crash of my tank was entirely my fault and I still kick myself for that.

I hope to have something up and running in the next few weeks and I know it's still going to be awhile after that before it's actually functioning to reduce the nitrates.

 

[1ByLand2BySea]

Sorry... I know you weren't suggesting to buy the Deltec. I was more trying to convey my disappointment that I couldn't buy one simply because my tanks are too small. Haha So far I haven't found too many units that have the feeding tube built in. I can only assume it's because the others are designed to use media that already have the carbon source available so you don't have to feed.

As for plants and nitrates... Thanks for your input. I think my expectations of plants controlling nitrates were set way too high so the near crash of my tank was entirely my fault and I still kick myself for that.

I hope to have something up and running in the next few weeks and I know it's still going to be awhile after that before it's actually functioning to reduce the nitrates.

How big is your tank?
There is not a problem if you use a larger unit as the amount of nitrate being removed is simply controlled by the flow rate of the water going in the reactor and amount of carbon source being dosed. Here is one by AquaMaxx. It say sulfur but you can simply put a few bio balls in it and add a feeding tube on the intake. I also know Bubble Magus makes one too.

Sulfur Reactor - Bulk Reef Supply

Shop Sulfur Reactor at Bulk Reef Supply and get rewarded on every purchase with our Preferred Reefer program.

www.marinedepot.com

 

[Karen00]

How big is your tank?
There is not a problem if you use a larger unit as the amount of nitrate being removed is simply controlled by the flow rate of the water going in the reactor and amount of carbon source being dosed. Here is one by AquaMaxx. It say sulfur but you can simply put a few bio balls in it and add a feeding tube on the intake. I also know Bubble Magus makes one too.

Sulfur Reactor - Bulk Reef Supply

Shop Sulfur Reactor at Bulk Reef Supply and get rewarded on every purchase with our Preferred Reefer program.

www.marinedepot.com

One tank is 15g and the other is a 30g. I don't have an issue with the 30g but I thought I would be prepared and get equipment sourced for that size. My priority is the 15g. I emailed the folks at the website link you provided (theaquariumsolution) to ask about the nitrate reactor documentation and asked them about their smallest unit which is for 50g to about 75g. The guy said he thought it would be too big for my sized tanks and that I would have a hard time getting it tuned and kept optimized. Maybe he's wrong? Obviously it's possible he's not that knowledgeable about the operation of a nitrate reactor. Thanks so much for providing that link. I will look into that unit.

 

[1ByLand2BySea]

One tank is 15g and the other is a 30g. I don't have an issue with the 30g but I thought I would be prepared and get equipment sourced for that size. My priority is the 15g. I emailed the folks at the website link you provided (theaquariumsolution) to ask about the nitrate reactor documentation and asked them about their smallest unit which is for 50g to about 75g. The guy said he thought it would be too big for my sized tanks and that I would have a hard time getting it tuned and kept optimized. Maybe he's wrong? Obviously it's possible he's not that knowledgeable about the operation of a nitrate reactor. Thanks so much for providing that link. I will look into that unit.

15 gallon tank is a very small tank for these type of unit and very hard to tune/manage without rapid fluctuations. Natural denitrification might be the way to go with slow water movement over sufficient amount of porous ceramic media or sintered glass like Siporax.