Newbie Palytoxin Concerns

[greenmandarin]

So a little background info to start…we set up a 55 gallon tank with the intent of having a fish only tank. At the end of November we purchased 2 small ($10.00) coral frags. Unfortunately we did not do research and blindly purchased what turned out to be a Zoa and a Paly I believe.

Fast forward to last week and we decided to move everything to a 75 gallon tank. I kept all the rock from the old tank, 75% of the sand and roughly 35 gallons of the water from the old tank. During this time I stumbled upon a video in regards to Palytoxin and realized we potentially introduced this to our tank.

Now I’m terrified that we have Palytoxin in the tank which is in our living room with an open top.

During the tank transfer the plugs with the corals went out of the tank and we did not put them back into the 75 gallon tank.

My concern is that I moved all the rock and most of the sand from one tank to the other and at least 50% of the water that’s in the new tank is from the old.

During the time they were in the 55 gallon tank we were moving them trying to find a spot they liked and would regularly wake up to find the crabs or snails had knocked them off the rock and the plug would be in the sand.

The first poly we had closed up after a couple of weeks and never opened again so we removed it and I purchased another one.

How worried should we realistically be? I am at the point of just calling the local store and having them come take everything down and remove it.

I have attached pictures of the two plugs and corals when we removed them.

I could be overreacting but this has made me worry so much I’m just done with it and sure at some point it will cause an issue even with them out of the tank.

 

[mike550]

I wouldn’t worry about Palytoxin issues from two small frags in a 75G tank. Looking at your pictures the frags look like they have closed up. They tend to do this when changes occur (moving between tanks, picking them up, changes in water chemistry, light, flow, etc). I’d let everything just settle out for a few days at least and see how things look

 

[ISpeakForTheSeas]

Yeah, I wouldn’t be worried - from everything I’ve read, for palytoxin to be a problem you basically have to either: get it in your eyes (happens occasionally), swallow it (thankfully never heard of someone doing this), or breathe it in while its aerosolized (this is usually where people run into problems).

My two cents on palytoxin after doing some research on it myself a while ago:

ISpeakForTheSeas said:
My understanding of palytoxin is this: some zoanthids and some palythoas have it, some don’t. Of those that do, some have it in meaningful quantities, some don’t. Even within the same species/color morph, there might be different levels of the toxin. Again, some might have it in meaningful quantities, some might not. There is some speculation that we might be able to breed toxin free palythoas and zoanthids like we’ve bred toxin free pufferfish, but I don’t know if this is accurate or not. There is also some speculation that, generally, the more colorful the zoanthid/palythoa, the less toxic or less likely to be toxic it is - there might be some truth to that, there moght not be.

What I know is this: you should probably treat all palythoas and zoanthids as if they do contain lethal levels of the toxin, and you should be aware of the signs of palytoxin poisoning in case you experience it, but most likely it won’t be an issue for you or your corals.

Don’t drop rocks on paly colonies, don’t frag zoas barehanded then rub your eyes, don’t bake live rock with zoas or palys on them (yes, these are all stories I’ve seen on here), and don’t scrub the rocks with colonies on them spotless with a toothbrush in a poorly ventilated area and no personal protective equipment.

As long as you don’t do anything blatantly unsafe or that would obviously upset the zoanthids or palythoas, you and your corals will likely all be fine. (And again, there’s a decent chance that even if you do something unwise or something that aggravates them, they might just not be toxic enough to do anything either way.)

So, be smart, be safe, and enjoy your zoas and palys.

ISpeakForTheSeas said:
Yeah, treat all palys/zoas as though they have larges amounts of palytoxin, but as long as you don’t have a sensitivity to it or open wounds on your hands, you should be fine just reaching in and washing your hands after. (In case you do have a sensitivity to it or to something else in your tank, though, I recommend wearing personal protective equipment when dealing with the tank, and especially when dealing with things that may be highly toxic).

Generally you have to do something really unwise that aerosolizes the toxin for it be dangerous (like boiling the rock with the palys on it, or scrubbing the rock bare with a toothbrush in a small space with no to limited airflow).

The zoas and palys release the toxin as a defensive measure, so as long as they don’t feel threatened, they shouldn’t release enough toxin to cause any sort of issue.

Again, use PPE and don’t do anything unwise, and you should be fine.

 

[Lavey29]

You can get hit by lightning if you go outside too.

 

[AydenLincoln]

I’m going to say the same thing I tell everyone who is worried about it. Only a small amount of zoas have palytoxin and unless you do a molecular analysis on your zoas you will never know if you have the strain that does ….but there are a million other scenarios/things that can kill us daily just by getting in the car we take a risk. And coral is at the very bottom of the list of things that are likely to kill you. Just don’t go boiling or eating rocks/coral and if you ever frag them safety measures have to be taken! If you are truly worried you can go with a rock only fish tank or wear gloves and goggles while handling them. And I know your mind can spin sometimes and anxiety levels rise and get yourself worked up over something you shouldn’t be worried about or over think.

 

[vtecintegra]

I would say you have a better chance of getting hit by lighting, attacked by a shark, and run over by a bus before those frags would ever cause a problem. So yeah, you are over reacting. If they are causing that much paranoia, just throw them in the trash. Thousands of us have zoas and Palys in their tanks, including me.

 

[greenmandarin]

I should probably clarify. I did remove the two frags, I’m concerned with the possibility of any residual toxin that could be in the system.

 

[Scooter21]

You only need to worry about it if you are cutting them up to frag. Also, don't boil them or their rocks. It's not a problem having them in your tank. Just wash your hands after handling them and you'll be fine

 

[exnisstech]

I have green paly and paly grandis, lots of them. I pluck them off the rocks bare handed using my finger nails. Never been a problem.

 

[Tired]

If palys leaked tons of poison into the system on a regular basis, nobody would keep them, because they'd kill everything. You're fine.

Don't lick, eat, boil, vaporize, vigorously scrub, or blend your corals, and palytoxin won't hurt you. Also don't touch them with your bare hands, but that's a concern of bacteria as much as it is of any toxin. No bare hands in the tank, particularly not with open cuts.

 

[DanDman]

If you’re that concerned about it. You should think about investing in some gloves they have the ones that go up to your shoulder. I personally do not wear gloves and I have Zoe and palys in my tank. Keep in mind that there are other infections you can get if you have cuts on your hands.

 

[mike550]

@greenmandarin I hope that you’re more comfortable with the risk from Palytoxins now that a number of folks have responded. There is a lot of experience in this forum which I’ve come to rely on and I still view myself as a newbie after three years. Quick Q for you — how did you get the impression that Palytoxin was so lethal that you were ready to shut down your tank?

 

[Dom]

It is my understanding that left undisturbed in the tank, Palys are not an issue. I've had them for years in my tank without an issue.

But you do need to exercise caution.

I once posted a link to an article where a reefer who had Palys attached to a rock cut them off. Later, he boiled his live rock (I'm not sure why). The steam from the pot had Paly toxins.

He put himself, his wife, his 2 kids and the family dog in the hospital with "respiratory distress".

Don't disturb them and you will be fine.

 

[greenmandarin]

@greenmandarin I hope that you’re more comfortable with the risk from Palytoxins now that a number of folks have responded. There is a lot of experience in this forum which I’ve come to rely on and I still view myself as a newbie after three years. Quick Q for you — how did you get the impression that Palytoxin was so lethal that you were ready to shut down your tank?

Reading some of the forum posts in regards to it and how easily it affected different members. Several YouTube videos, especially the livestream Melevsreef did were he discussed Julian Sprung and how he was poisoned just by moving a rock that had polys on it.
Also reviewing news articles of entire families effected.

 

[greenmandarin]

It is my understanding that left undisturbed in the tank, Palys are not an issue. I've had them for years in my tank without an issue.

But you do need to exercise caution.

I once posted a link to an article where a reefer who had Palys attached to a rock cut them off. Later, he boiled his live rock (I'm not sure why). The steam from the pot had Paly toxins.

He put himself, his wife, his 2 kids and the family dog in the hospital with "respiratory distress".

Don't disturb them and you will be fine.

I completely removed the frags during the tank switch and did not add them back to the 75. They had not moved off the plugs yet , my concern now is the question mark in regards to if we have palytoxin in the tank now.

 

[mike550]

Reading some of the forum posts in regards to it and how easily it affected different members. Several YouTube videos, especially the livestream Melevsreef did were he discussed Julian Sprung and how he was poisoned just by moving a rock that had polys on it.
Also reviewing news articles of entire families effected.

Wow. That’s crazy. Harder to find but the owner of coral gardens does a video on Zoas / Palys and talks about the toxin risk. Very informative from a guy that raises and sells corals for a living. Also a good source for info and corals. I hope you find your personal comfort level around this.

 

[Pntbll687]

I should probably clarify. I did remove the two frags, I’m concerned with the possibility of any residual toxin that could be in the system.

Run some carbon and change it every couple of days for a week if you're that concerned about it.

 

[ISpeakForTheSeas]

Reading some of the forum posts in regards to it and how easily it affected different members. Several YouTube videos, especially the livestream Melevsreef did were he discussed Julian Sprung and how he was poisoned just by moving a rock that had polys on it.
Also reviewing news articles of entire families effected.

Again, palytoxin is dangerous and should be treated as such, but if you're wearing gloves while working in the tank (which you should probably wear gloves regardless because of bacteria in the tank) and you don't do anything egregiously unwise with the zoas/palys, you'll be fine.

In this specific case - knowing that you've already thrown out the zoas/palys that could have been toxic - you can run some carbon, do some water changes, and your tank should be as harmless as they come. If you're really concerned about it, you can clear out the tank, clean the glass and equipment, get new dry rock and sand, and refill the tank after - but this really isn't necessary.

Also, I missed it the first time, but - welcome to Reef2Reef!

 

[Pntbll687]

Reading some of the forum posts in regards to it and how easily it affected different members. Several YouTube videos, especially the livestream Melevsreef did were he discussed Julian Sprung and how he was poisoned just by moving a rock that had polys on it.
Also reviewing news articles of entire families effected.

I am willing to bet that in most of these cases, the people moved a rock or irritated the paly, then did not wash their hands and arms after being in the tank. They then rubbed their eye or something and that's how the toxin gets in the bloodstream.

I remember the case where the whole family was affected. Someone literally BOILED the rock in a large pot on the stove and the toxin became airborn. DONT DO THAT

If it's bothering you this much, toss the frags and don't buy anymore zoas or palys. Run carbon to remove anything in the water.

 

[ISpeakForTheSeas]

my concern now is the question mark in regards to if we have palytoxin in the tank now.

There's a non-zero probability that it's in your tank even if you don't have zoanthids, but there's also a non-zero probability that it's not in your tank even if you do have zoanthids. So, you might have it in the tank, or you might not.

To my knowledge it’s unconfirmed at this point, but it is suspected that the palytoxin is actually produced by bacteria rather than the zoanthids themselves (which could explain at least in part why palytoxin is found in other organisms like sponges and such). If it is produced by bacteria, then the quantities of the palytoxin producing bacteria in the vicinity of a paly/zoa may determine how toxic it is - this would explain a good deal about the variation in toxicity between specimens of the same species.

If your risk/reward equation excludes ANY exposure to palytoxin, it can be found in other animals besides just zoas/palys so you should probably find another hobby.

My source about it possibly being produced by bacteria (the last paragraph before the section two header):

Palytoxin and Analogs: Biological and Ecological Effects

Palytoxin (PTX) is a potent marine toxin that was originally found in soft corals from tropical areas of the Pacific Ocean. Soon after, its occurrence was observed in numerous other marine organisms from the same ecological region. More recently, several ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov