NEW Vodka and Vinegar Dosing Charts

[Miami Reef]

The reasons I'm updating the Vinegar and Vodka dosing charts are two-fold:

1. The ramp was unnecessarily slow. There was no perceived benefit to such a tedious ramp, and it led to reefers quitting because they thought carbon dosing didn't work.

2. The ramp did not scale up correctly at all. A 40x larger tank only received 2x the needed dose. (A 1,000-gallon tank only received twice the dose of a 25-gallon tank).


Carbon dosing is a fantastic way to lower nutrients, more specifically nitrate. The reason is three-fold:

1. Organisms, such as bacteria, contain much more nitrogen than phosphorous.

2. Denitrification is a process that happens in anaerobic conditions (little to no oxygen). These bacteria require an organic to oxidize the nitrate molecule (NO3-) into Nitrogen (N2). They use the oxygen that is attached to the nitrate molecule to respire. Thus, there will be NO phosphate consumed during this process.

Here is the equation by @Randy Holmes-Farley :

organic + 124 NO3– + 124 H+ → 122 CO2 + 70 N2 + 208 H2O

3.We have an immense reservoir of phosphate bound to calcium carbonate rocks and sand. To put to pespective, a 50% water change with nutrient-free water will successfully reduce your nitrate values by 50%. Phosphates will likely remain unchanged.


For these reasons, I do NOT recommend dosing carbon solely for controlling phosphates. It is likey to completely bottom-out nitrate before seeing phosphate decrease.

What are the benefits of carbon dosing?

Besides reducing nitrate, spurring bacteria is the main benefit. This bacteria can feed many organisms and filter feeders.

What about other carbon sources such as NP Bacto Balance, NOPOX, or Sugar?

You can carbon dose with NP Bacto Balance or NOPOX, but dosing straight vinegar or vodka is inexpensive and readily available in stores. You can fine tune the dose.


What kind of vinegar or vodka should I use?

Any food-grade white vinegar should be safe to use. White distilled vinegar is the most pure and cheapest.

For vodka, 80 proof vodka (40% ethanol) is safe to use.


Instructions and rules to follow when carbon dosing with my charts:

1. Dose during daylight hours. Carbon dosing will reduce pH and oxygen, so it's wise to dose while those parameters are naturally at their highest.

2. Skimming and good surface agitation is strongly encouraged. If you don't have a skimmer, stay on the lower end of the chart, and don't progress if there’s too much bacteria build-up.


3. You can dose vodka or vinegar in one shot, but higher doses of vinegar will be best spread out.

4. When using the charts, Vinegar and Vodka have the same pH-lowering effect. Vinegar is more upfront, while vodka is all later as it metabolized by bacteria. You cannot easily detect the pH drop from vodka, but they are equal when comparing the chart dosages for tank size.

5. You do not need to increase the dose after week 2 if nitrates are dropping.

6. Watch your tank and make observations. Once your nutrients are in line, find a small maintenance dose for your tank. You can choose the final dose based on your testing and tank inhabitants.

7. Keep track of nutrients and ensure they don't bottom out.

Here are the charts. If you have any questions, feel free to ask.

 

[Miami Reef]

A few photos of my clams in my tank. I keep acropora, maxima clams, LPS, and I have a small red ball sponge in my sump.

I dosed both vodka and vinegar separately, and both worked to reduce nitrates.

I also keep acanthophyllia.

Some of my Goniopora.

 

[Battlecorals]

The tank I set up at my kids middle school’s nutrients are off the charts right now. It’s a tough system to do water changes on. I going to give this a try.

 

[Miami Reef]

The tank I set up at my kids middle school’s nutrients are off the charts right now. It’s a tough system to do water changes on. I going to give this a try.

I suggest vinegar for that tank.

Let us know how it goes!

 

[Garf]

The tank I set up at my kids middle school’s nutrients are off the charts right now. It’s a tough system to do water changes on. I going to give this a try.

I’m assuming you know about nitrite interference, and that’s not the reason? Just checking

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

A few photos of my clams in my tank. I keep acropora, maxima clams, LPS, and I have a small red ball sponge in my sump.

I dosed both vodka and vinegar separately, and both worked to reduce nitrates.

I also keep acanthophyllia.

Some of my Goniopora.

Beautiful clams.

 

[Miami Reef]

Beautiful clams.

Thank you. Clams are my passion. I currently have 18 maxima clams in my tank.

This is my favorite photo I’ve taken of them.

Clams aside, I’ve read you say that in your opinion, the slow ramp in the other chart was unnecessary. Do you think this new ramp is an improvement or not? Do you have any criticisms? We are all here to learn and have the best outcome for our tanks.

I really appreciate your feedback. Positive or not. I just want to help reefers in the best way possible.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I think the mL per day at weeks 3 and 4 of the vinegar may be high at 188 and 250 mL per day for 250 gallons. I settled out at about 110 ml per day for about 250 total water gallons. I went as high as 400 mL per day, but that was too much for my system. Maybe give weeks 1 and 2, and then suggest folks adjust upward or downward based on nitrate observations.

I don't really have any concerns about a fast start, as long as one isn't dosing more than a reasonable final level. The only possible issue, IMO, is overshooting the need and driving nutrients too low, which really doesn't seem to happen without gross overdosing.

The "need" to slowly build bacteria is a hypothesis whose time has come and gone, IMO.

Things do go wrong in carbon dosing, such as getting unappealing bacteria in the display or, more rarely, having coral issues, but I do not think the ramp rate has been shown to be causative of either of those effects. I think it has more to do with which species are already present to begin growing.

 

[Miami Reef]

I think the mL per day at weeks 3 and 4 of the vinegar may be high at 188 and 250 mL per day for 250 gallons. I settled out at about 110 ml per day for about 250 total water gallons. I went as high as 400 mL per day, but that was too much for my system. Maybe give weeks 1 and 2, and then suggest folks adjust upward or downward based on nitrate observations.

I don't really have any concerns about a fast start, as long as one isn't dosing more than a reasonable final level. The only possible issue, IMO, is overshooting the need and driving nutrients too low, which really doesn't seem to happen without gross overdosing.

The "need" to slowly build bacteria is a hypothesis whose time has come and gone, IMO.

Things do go wrong in carbon dosing, such as getting unappealing bacteria in the display or, more rarely, having coral issues, but I do not think the ramp rate has been shown to be causative of either of those effects. I think it has more to do with which species are already present to begin growing.

You got it. I will update the chart.

 

[Miami Reef]

I think the mL per day at weeks 3 and 4 of the vinegar may be high at 188 and 250 mL per day for 250 gallons. I settled out at about 110 ml per day for about 250 total water gallons. I went as high as 400 mL per day, but that was too much for my system. Maybe give weeks 1 and 2, and then suggest folks adjust upward or downward based on nitrate observations.

I don't really have any concerns about a fast start, as long as one isn't dosing more than a reasonable final level. The only possible issue, IMO, is overshooting the need and driving nutrients too low, which really doesn't seem to happen without gross overdosing.

The "need" to slowly build bacteria is a hypothesis whose time has come and gone, IMO.

Things do go wrong in carbon dosing, such as getting unappealing bacteria in the display or, more rarely, having coral issues, but I do not think the ramp rate has been shown to be causative of either of those effects. I think it has more to do with which species are already present to begin growing.

Thank you for the feedback. The revision is in the first post.

 

[Miami Reef]

@Dan_P @Battlecorals

Take a look at the latest revision.

 

[Miami Reef]

Update:

Added guidelines to chart.

 

[Miami Reef]

@Randy Holmes-Farley

Let me know your thoughts.

 

[Dan_P]

@Dan_P @Battlecorals

Take a look at the latest revision.

Rates look reasonable and the comments in the margin super helpful. @taricha, does this add rate look like what you have done?

 

[gbroadbridge]

The reason I'm updating the Vinegar and Vodka dosing charts is two-fold:

1. The ramp was unnecessarily slow. There was no perceived benefit to such a tedious ramp, and it led to reefers quitting because they thought carbon dosing didn't work.

2. The ramp did not scale up correctly at all. A 40x larger tank only received 2x the needed dose. (A 1,000-gallon tank only received twice the dose of a 25-gallon tank).

Why should I carbon dose?

We will refer to carbon dosing as adding any readily metabolized organic. Carbon dosing is NOT equal to dosing carbohydrates.

Reef tanks are notoriously carbon-limited. We have an excess of P and N, and the bacteria in our tank lack the carbon to continue consuming nitrogen and phosphorous.

Carbon dosing is a fantastic way to lower nutrients, more specifically nitrate. The reason is three-fold:

1. Organisms such as bacteria & plankton contain much more nitrogen than phosphorous. The red field ratio is 16:1, meaning there are 16 parts nitrogen to 1 part phosphorous.

2. Denitrification is a process that happens in anaerobic conditions (little to no oxygen). These bacteria require an organic to oxidize the nitrate molecule (NO3-) into Nitrogen (N2). They breathe the oxygen that is attached to the nitrate molecule. Thus, there will be NO phosphate consumed in this process.

Here is the equation by @Randy Holmes-Farley :

organic + 124 NO3– + 124 H+ → 122 CO2 + 70 N2 + 208 H2O

3.We have an immense reservoir of phosphate bound to calcium carbonate rocks and sand. To put to pespective, a 50% water change with nutrient-free water will successfully reduce your nutrient values by 1/2. More often than not, the phosphate value will climb right back up near the starting point after a day; PO4 tries to be in constant equilibrium with the bulk water column and calcium carbonate surfaces.


For these reasons, I do NOT recommend dosing carbon solely for controlling phosphates. It is likey to deplete nitrate before seeing phopshates significantly reduce.

What are the benefits of carbon dosing?

Besides reducing nitrate, spurring bacteria is the main benefit. This bacteria can feed many organisms and filter feeds (such as desirable sponges) in a tank. Coals and sponges can directly metabolize acetate. Acetate is one of the highest turnover organic in the ocean. Thus, opting for vinegar can be very natural.

What about other carbon sources such as NP Bacto Balance, NOPOX, or Sugar?

You can carbon dose with NP Bacto Balance or NOPOX, but dosing straight vinegar or vodka is cheaper and readily available in stores.

One caveat is dosing sugar. While it was popular to dose sugar to a tank several decades ago, it has largely fallen out of favor. It tends to "brown out" certain corals. I wouldn't consider dosing sugar.

Vodka is eight times more concentrated, so the vodka chart has the same ramp as the vinegar chart.

What kind of vinegar or vodka should I use?

Plain Distilled vinegar (5% acidity) from the grocery store is best. NOT filtered vinegar.

Unflavored 80 proof vodka (40% ethanol) is adequete.


Instructions and rules to follow when carbon dosing with my charts:

1. Only dose during daylight hours. Carbon dosing will reduce pH and oxygen, so it's wise to dose while those parameters are naturally at their highest.

2. Skimming and good surface agitation is encouraged. If you don't have a skimmer, stay on the lower end of the chart, and don't progress unless it's clear the tank is fine.

3. You can dose vodka in one shot (bolus dosing), but vinegar is best spread-out with a dosing pump throughout the daylight hours.

4. Vinegar and Vodka have the same pH-lowering effect, but vinegar is more upfront, while vodka is all later as it becomes consumed by bacteria. You cannot easily detect the pH drop from vodka, but they are equal when comparing the chart dosages for tank size.

5. You do not need to increase the dose after week 2 if nitrates are reducing earlier.

6. Watch your tank and make observations. Once your nutrients are in line, find a small maintenance dose for your tank. You choose the final dose based on your testing and tank inhabitants.

7. Keep track of nutrients and ensure they don't bottom out. Nitrates won't bottom overnight; you won't wake up on the second day and see 100 ppm turn to 0.00 ppm. It's much more gradual than that.

8. More people notice cyano issues with vodka than with vinegar. If that is the case, switching to vinegar is a wise choice.

Here are the charts. If you have any questions, feel free to ask.

Nice post.

Perhaps you may like to note that distilled vinegar (which is common in the US) is not the same as fermented vinegar.

Fermented vinegar is very common in some countries and may have some unwanted side effects if used.

 

[Reefering1]

Thank you for the feedback. Here's the new revision. I also updated the first post.

Excuse me if I missed it(skim read), but what is the difference between vinegar and vodka? I understand both are organic carbon but is there a difference in results? I currently dose vodka and all is well, am I missing out on anything by not using vinegar? Is there anything to gain? Why do some people mix vodka/vinegar/sugar?

 

[Miami Reef]

Excuse me if I missed it(skim read), but what is the difference between vinegar and vodka? I understand both are organic carbon but is there a difference in results? I currently dose vodka and all is well, am I missing out on anything by not using vinegar? Is there anything to gain? Why do some people mix vodka/vinegar/sugar?

Good question.

The premise of mixing vodka and vinegar is to avoid a “monoculture” of bacteria. Carbon dosing, especially vinegar, can spur a wide variety of organisms. I have also seen great tanks with vodka dosing.

I believe that fear is not warranted, but you can mix them both if you want to.

 

[MnFish1]

The reason I'm updating the Vinegar and Vodka dosing charts is two-fold:

1. The ramp was unnecessarily slow. There was no perceived benefit to such a tedious ramp, and it led to reefers quitting because they thought carbon dosing didn't work.

2. The ramp did not scale up correctly at all. A 40x larger tank only received 2x the needed dose. (A 1,000-gallon tank only received twice the dose of a 25-gallon tank).

Why should I carbon dose?

We will refer to carbon dosing as adding any readily metabolized organic. Carbon dosing is NOT equal to dosing carbohydrates.

Reef tanks are notoriously carbon-limited. We have an excess of P and N, and the bacteria in our tank lack the carbon to continue consuming nitrogen and phosphorous.

Carbon dosing is a fantastic way to lower nutrients, more specifically nitrate. The reason is three-fold:

1. Organisms such as bacteria & plankton contain much more nitrogen than phosphorous. The red field ratio is 16:1, meaning there are 16 parts nitrogen to 1 part phosphorous.

2. Denitrification is a process that happens in anaerobic conditions (little to no oxygen). These bacteria require an organic to oxidize the nitrate molecule (NO3-) into Nitrogen (N2). They breathe the oxygen that is attached to the nitrate molecule. Thus, there will be NO phosphate consumed in this process.

Here is the equation by @Randy Holmes-Farley :

organic + 124 NO3– + 124 H+ → 122 CO2 + 70 N2 + 208 H2O

3.We have an immense reservoir of phosphate bound to calcium carbonate rocks and sand. To put to pespective, a 50% water change with nutrient-free water will successfully reduce your nutrient values by 1/2. More often than not, the phosphate value will climb right back up near the starting point after a day; PO4 tries to be in constant equilibrium with the bulk water column and calcium carbonate surfaces.


For these reasons, I do NOT recommend dosing carbon solely for controlling phosphates. It is likey to deplete nitrate before seeing phopshates significantly reduce.

What are the benefits of carbon dosing?

Besides reducing nitrate, spurring bacteria is the main benefit. This bacteria can feed many organisms and filter feeds (such as desirable sponges) in a tank. Coals and sponges can directly metabolize acetate. Acetate is one of the highest turnover organic in the ocean. Thus, opting for vinegar can be very natural.

What about other carbon sources such as NP Bacto Balance, NOPOX, or Sugar?

You can carbon dose with NP Bacto Balance or NOPOX, but dosing straight vinegar or vodka is cheaper and readily available in stores.

One caveat is dosing sugar. While it was popular to dose sugar to a tank several decades ago, it has largely fallen out of favor. It tends to "brown out" certain corals. I wouldn't consider dosing sugar.

Vodka is eight times more concentrated, so the vodka chart has the same ramp as the vinegar chart.

What kind of vinegar or vodka should I use?

Plain Distilled vinegar (5% acidity) from the grocery store is best. NOT filtered vinegar.

Unflavored 80 proof vodka (40% ethanol) is adequete.


Instructions and rules to follow when carbon dosing with my charts:

1. Only dose during daylight hours. Carbon dosing will reduce pH and oxygen, so it's wise to dose while those parameters are naturally at their highest.

2. Skimming and good surface agitation is encouraged. If you don't have a skimmer, stay on the lower end of the chart, and don't progress unless it's clear the tank is fine.

3. You can dose vodka in one shot (bolus dosing), but vinegar is best spread-out with a dosing pump throughout the daylight hours.

4. Vinegar and Vodka have the same pH-lowering effect, but vinegar is more upfront, while vodka is all later as it becomes consumed by bacteria. You cannot easily detect the pH drop from vodka, but they are equal when comparing the chart dosages for tank size.

5. You do not need to increase the dose after week 2 if nitrates are reducing earlier.

6. Watch your tank and make observations. Once your nutrients are in line, find a small maintenance dose for your tank. You choose the final dose based on your testing and tank inhabitants.

7. Keep track of nutrients and ensure they don't bottom out. Nitrates won't bottom overnight; you won't wake up on the second day and see 100 ppm turn to 0.00 ppm. It's much more gradual than that.

8. More people notice cyano issues with vodka than with vinegar. If that is the case, switching to vinegar is a wise choice.

Here are the charts. If you have any questions, feel free to ask.

This should have been an article.

 

[Reefering1]

Good question.

The premise of mixing vodka and vinegar is to avoid a “monoculture” of bacteria. Carbon dosing, especially vinegar, can spur a wide variety of organisms. I have also seen great tanks with vodka dosing.

I believe that fear is not warranted, but you can mix them both if you want to. I will consider making a new graph for those who want to use both.

Corals, sponges, and filter feeders can directly consume the acetate in vinegar for energy. They can use acetate as a building block to make fatty acids, too.

Vinegar is one of the most highly processed organic in the ocean; dosing vinegar can be very natural to the organisms in our tank.

A few potential downsides to vinegar:

1) May increase zooxanthella (darker corals)

2) May increase pest organisms like aiptasia, vermitids, and dinoflagellates, especially with higher doses.

3) Lower pH spikes when not using a doser.


The downsides 1 & 2 won’t happen in every tank. It’s only theoretical. If you aren’t getting cyano with vodka, there’s no reason to switch it. I like vodka as a carbon source. Both work equally well for NO3 when using the charts I made.

What downsides are possible with vodka? Any difference on their effect on p04? I'm content with the results of vodka, but always wondered if I'm missing out on anything.. sound like "leave good enough alone"(?)

 

[MnFish1]

@Miami Reef. Dude -you can not do that with bacteria