New Haddoni Carpet Declining

[jbacker7]

Hello,

I recently purchased a Haddoni carpet anemone online. It was shipped to my house overnight and arrived in seemingly good condition.

I placed it in my display tank which is about 4 months old. I know that is a little on the young side, but I have been monitoring parameters closely and everything has seemed very stable.

My setup is as follows:

Standard 75 gallon display tank
Approximately 10 gallon sump
Approximately 15 gallon refugium

The total water volume is right around 90 gallons.

I use Instant Ocean Reef Crystals.

It is lit with two Kessil A360X Tuna Blues rotated in toward the middle and powered at 50% intensity with the new addition of this anemone.

The tank is home to 5 black saddleback clowns, approximately 1.5" - 2". There are also groups of nassarius and trochus snails along with 12 small frags of xenia.

The sand bed is probably around 3 - 3.5" deep.

I have a single MP40 on the left side opposite of the return that is installed on the right side. The MP40 is running at it's minimum power and just gently blows up the edges of the carpet when the clowns lift it.

Prior to the anemone's arrival I dropped the salinity from 1.025 to 1.022 over the course of 2 days as the vendor said that the anemone would arrive in water with a salinity of 1.018 - 1.019.

Here is a photo of the setup for reference:

The anemone arrived last Tuesday night 12/12. I floated it for 40 minutes, drip acclimated for 20 mins, and placed into a hole I had dug in the sand. The anemone clung to the bottom of the tank and I gently backfilled it. The second photo is of the anemone on Wednesday morning. The third is a photo on Wednesday during the day. The introduction of the anemone into the tank seemed to be a roaring success. It looked very healthy.

On Wednesday 12/13, the anemone expelled some brown / black gunk in some wisps / pellets. In my reading I believe this to have been some of it's zooxanthellae and should be expected when adjusting to new lighting.

On Thursday 12/14, the group of 5 saddlebacks began to host the anemone. Even though they are small They kept very busying "loving" the anemone. I think they have loved it more than it has appreciated.

On Saturday 12/16, the 4th day in the tank, the anemone was looking very good. I decided to raise the salinity from 1.022 to 1.023. I did so by removing 10 gallons of tank water and replacing with 10 gallons of new water at approximately 1.032. I also fed the anemone a piece of raw shrimp which I thawed in a cup tank water. The anemone took the shrimp easily and never regurgitated it.

On Sunday 12/17, I began to notice half the anemone's foot coming up from the sand bed. The other half remained stuck to the bottom. The mouth was opening and closing more frequently than it had been. I watched the female clown throw an empty shell into the anemone's mouth and push it down in deep. I continued to monitor and it really seemed to upset the anemone. I placed a clear plastic food container over the top of the anemone to keep the clowns away. The anemone pushed out a lot of it's insides and the shell along with it. Being careful not to touch the anemone's insides I used a tweezer's to pluck the shell out and removed the food container barrier. This was Sunday at 3:30 PM. The anemone seemed to be significantly stressed after that event. That night, the female clown would not let anyone else near the anemone. She babied it through the night and in the morning, while not back to it's full glory, it seemed to be doing better. The foot was still halfway out of the sand. At this point I knew I had to do something about the stress I had been observing and committed to beginning cipro treatment per the sticky in this forum at 0.125 mg/L every 12 hours.

Yesterday Monday 12/18, the anemone wasn't looking great again, mouth open and insides visible, sometimes expanding outward. I called my local vet as soon as they opened at 8:00 AM to see if I could get any cipro. He did not have any in stock. I immediately placed an order online. To my frustration, the order did not ship out yesterday as it seemed it was supposed to. I am expecting it to ship out today, Tuesday 12/19, and arrive tomorrow, Wednesday 12/20 in the afternoon. Through the day the clowns started being rough on the anemone again, but nothing too dramatic. It didn't look great, mouth still open, but not gaping. Toward the end of the day I did confirm by looking from underneath that the anemone had stuck 50% of it's foot back down to the bottom glass. Through the night however it seemed to be looking more stressed. I turned the MP40 off and just let the return run.

I woke up this morning, Tuesday 12/19, to find the anemone very shriveled and looking stressed, pretty much lifeless. I turned the MP40 back on. A clown shot under the anemone and the pump gently lifted it up and flipped it over. I had not seen this happen before, we are in new territory of dire straits today. I turned the MP40 off, put some egg crate in the tank to separate the clowns from the anemone and have been watching for any signs of movement today. I have only observed very minor expansion and contraction, no real tentacle extension, and no real tentacle movement. I did pick the anemone up with a latex glove, it did not feel sticky like it did when I placed it in the tank. I pulled it out of the tank for a second to give it a smell, no foul smell. I placed it back in the tank with a rock beneath it so it has something a little closer to the surface to try to grab on to. It appears we are on death's doorstep; I am not optimistic.

I tested my tank parameters today, they are as follows:

Salinity: 1.024
pH: Close to 8.0 in the mornings and closer to 8.1 in the evenings. Monitored with an Apex
Temperature: Moves between 79.5 and 80.0 through the day. Monitored with Apex
Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 5
KH: Approximately 9. Tested with Red Sea Pro Kit
Ca: Approximately 350. Tested with Red Sea Pro Kit
Mg: Approximately 1000. Tested with RedSea Pro Kit

I will administer cipro at 0.125 mg/L twice a day, maybe every 6 hours once I get it.

Do you guys have any other advice on what you might try or do here? Any thoughts on what could've happened other than a bacterial infection or that piece of shrimp stressing it out?

Thanks for your time,

Jacob

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Hello,

I recently purchased a Haddoni carpet anemone online. It was shipped to my house overnight and arrived in seemingly good condition.

I placed it in my display tank which is about 4 months old. I know that is a little on the young side, but I have been monitoring parameters closely and everything has seemed very stable.

My setup is as follows:

Standard 75 gallon display tank
Approximately 10 gallon sump
Approximately 15 gallon refugium

The total water volume is right around 90 gallons.

I use Instant Ocean Reef Crystals.

It is lit with two Kessil A360X Tuna Blues rotated in toward the middle and powered at 50% intensity with the new addition of this anemone.

The tank is home to 5 black saddleback clowns, approximately 1.5" - 2". There are also groups of nassarius and trochus snails along with 12 small frags of xenia.

The sand bed is probably around 3 - 3.5" deep.

I have a single MP40 on the left side opposite of the return that is installed on the right side. The MP40 is running at it's minimum power and just gently blows up the edges of the carpet when the clowns lift it.

Prior to the anemone's arrival I dropped the salinity from 1.025 to 1.022 over the course of 2 days as the vendor said that the anemone would arrive in water with a salinity of 1.018 - 1.019.

Here is a photo of the setup for reference:

The anemone arrived last Tuesday night 12/12. I floated it for 40 minutes, drip acclimated for 20 mins, and placed into a hole I had dug in the sand. The anemone clung to the bottom of the tank and I gently backfilled it. The second photo is of the anemone on Wednesday morning. The third is a photo on Wednesday during the day. The introduction of the anemone into the tank seemed to be a roaring success. It looked very healthy.

On Wednesday 12/13, the anemone expelled some brown / black gunk in some wisps / pellets. In my reading I believe this to have been some of it's zooxanthellae and should be expected when adjusting to new lighting.

On Thursday 12/14, the group of 5 saddlebacks began to host the anemone. Even though they are small They kept very busying "loving" the anemone. I think they have loved it more than it has appreciated.

On Saturday 12/16, the 4th day in the tank, the anemone was looking very good. I decided to raise the salinity from 1.022 to 1.023. I did so by removing 10 gallons of tank water and replacing with 10 gallons of new water at approximately 1.032. I also fed the anemone a piece of raw shrimp which I thawed in a cup tank water. The anemone took the shrimp easily and never regurgitated it.

On Sunday 12/17, I began to notice half the anemone's foot coming up from the sand bed. The other half remained stuck to the bottom. The mouth was opening and closing more frequently than it had been. I watched the female clown throw an empty shell into the anemone's mouth and push it down in deep. I continued to monitor and it really seemed to upset the anemone. I placed a clear plastic food container over the top of the anemone to keep the clowns away. The anemone pushed out a lot of it's insides and the shell along with it. Being careful not to touch the anemone's insides I used a tweezer's to pluck the shell out and removed the food container barrier. This was Sunday at 3:30 PM. The anemone seemed to be significantly stressed after that event. That night, the female clown would not let anyone else near the anemone. She babied it through the night and in the morning, while not back to it's full glory, it seemed to be doing better. The foot was still halfway out of the sand. At this point I knew I had to do something about the stress I had been observing and committed to beginning cipro treatment per the sticky in this forum at 0.125 mg/L every 12 hours.

Yesterday Monday 12/18, the anemone wasn't looking great again, mouth open and insides visible, sometimes expanding outward. I called my local vet as soon as they opened at 8:00 AM to see if I could get any cipro. He did not have any in stock. I immediately placed an order online. To my frustration, the order did not ship out yesterday as it seemed it was supposed to. I am expecting it to ship out today, Tuesday 12/19, and arrive tomorrow, Wednesday 12/20 in the afternoon. Through the day the clowns started being rough on the anemone again, but nothing too dramatic. It didn't look great, mouth still open, but not gaping. Toward the end of the day I did confirm by looking from underneath that the anemone had stuck 50% of it's foot back down to the bottom glass. Through the night however it seemed to be looking more stressed. I turned the MP40 off and just let the return run.

I woke up this morning, Tuesday 12/19, to find the anemone very shriveled and looking stressed, pretty much lifeless. I turned the MP40 back on. A clown shot under the anemone and the pump gently lifted it up and flipped it over. I had not seen this happen before, we are in new territory of dire straits today. I turned the MP40 off, put some egg crate in the tank to separate the clowns from the anemone and have been watching for any signs of movement today. I have only observed very minor expansion and contraction, no real tentacle extension, and no real tentacle movement. I did pick the anemone up with a latex glove, it did not feel sticky like it did when I placed it in the tank. I pulled it out of the tank for a second to give it a smell, no foul smell. I placed it back in the tank with a rock beneath it so it has something a little closer to the surface to try to grab on to. It appears we are on death's doorstep; I am not optimistic.

I tested my tank parameters today, they are as follows:

Salinity: 1.024
pH: Close to 8.0 in the mornings and closer to 8.1 in the evenings. Monitored with an Apex
Temperature: Moves between 79.5 and 80.0 through the day. Monitored with Apex
Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 5
KH: Approximately 9. Tested with Red Sea Pro Kit
Ca: Approximately 350. Tested with Red Sea Pro Kit
Mg: Approximately 1000. Tested with RedSea Pro Kit

I will administer cipro at 0.125 mg/L twice a day, maybe every 6 hours once I get it.

Do you guys have any other advice on what you might try or do here? Any thoughts on what could've happened other than a bacterial infection or that piece of shrimp stressing it out?

Thanks for your time,

Jacob

Welcome to Reef2Reef!

Thank you for the detailed report.

While waiting on others to respond here, did the vendor offer any rationale for keeping the anemone at that low of a specific gravity? That just seems so counter to what I've always done with them in LFS situations.

That said, I don't think the low SG is wholly the issue, as the anemone seemed to thrive at first. A little inflating/deflating on a new carpet anemone is pretty common, but this seems extreme. Did you have any opportunity to inspect the animal's pedal disk for lacerations?

Jay

 

[polywise]

I had one a long time back, thinking you might need to feed it some more ?
maybe also some small ripped up scallop?

 

[Gill the 3rd]

Is it still sticky? Try feeding it a chunk of seafood and see if it eats.

 

[exnisstech]

I don't think keeping nems in low salinity is common practice like it seems to be for fish. I'm not sure offering food to a struggling nem is a good thing to do but my knowledge is limited. Maybe @OrionN can offer some input?

 

[jbacker7]

Welcome to Reef2Reef!

Thank you for the detailed report.

While waiting on others to respond here, did the vendor offer any rationale for keeping the anemone at that low of a specific gravity? That just seems so counter to what I've always done with them in LFS situations.

That said, I don't think the low SG is wholly the issue, as the anemone seemed to thrive at first. A little inflating/deflating on a new carpet anemone is pretty common, but this seems extreme. Did you have any opportunity to inspect the animal's pedal disk for lacerations?

Jay

Thanks Jay. The vendor's website simply says "Note on Salinity: Please keep in mind that we keep salinity of our fish system at 1.018-1.019, so if possible, please prepare for your fish by bumping salinity of your quarantine tank down to that level, and slowly bring it up as quarantine progresses. A sudden and big change in salinity can be stressful for the fish. Low salinity (aka hyposalinity), along with a small amount of copper throughout the system help kill unwanted passengers while the fish are quarantining in our facility after arrival and before shipping out to you. This is an industry standard, you should expect most reputable online fish stores to do the same." I just realized they do specify their "fish system" so maybe that low salinity wasn't the case for the anemone. However, I only brought mine down to 1.022, I didn't want to lower it further due to the existing livestock in this display tank. I was able to inspect the pedal disc up close on arrival and through the glass yesterday. I did not observe any lacerations or physical damage.

A update through yesterday, Tuesday 12/19. I separated the clowns with some egg crate and it kept them off for most of the day. The anemone remained similar to my final picture on the original post for a lot of the day. I turned the lights back down to 40% as I did some good reading about anemones expanding to expose more zooxanthellae and contracting to expose less. It looked like it was trying to "hide" from the light and perhaps did not need more energy for the day. It seemed to appreciate the dimming of the light and toward the end of the day did start to expand nicely. It then rolled onto it's side like it was trying to right itself. I dug it a hole down to the bottom glass and it became very active, seemingly trying to stick down. At point point it got itself perpendicular by bringing it's foot up through it's mouth and then pushing it back down through. It failed to stick to the glass. I cut a plastic cup in half and made a ring for it to hold it upright which it seems to appreciate. It's looking much better this morning. I tried to move the clowns off it to find that it is holding itself up on the cup using it's skirt, not be extending it's foot down to the sand. That little bit of agitation seemed to bother it a bit and it's shrinking up a bit now, but nothing unhealthy / hockey puck looking like yesterday.

It seems like it's still struggling to close it's mouth. I think that's one of the most stressful things that the clowns are doing to it, constantly swimming in and out of its mouth. I'm still planning on cipro at 0.125mg/L starting today hopefully around noon to help it regain some strength to get it's "foot stickiness" back and close it's mouth more firmly. Do you guys agree with that?

I've also noticed that when my lights come on (instantly to full brightness) it seems like it shocks the anemone a bit, but it may be getting used to it and not deflating drastically like it did initially. Are you guys using ramping timers to slowly bring your lights up to full power?


Thanks everyone, Jacob.

 

[D-Nak]

When clownfish "divebomb" into a carpet anemone's mouth, it's usually an indicator that something is wrong. It looks like the carpet trying to acclimate and may do fine in the DT, but a Cipro treatment won't hurt. Just make sure that you follow the protocol, which means QTing in a separate tank (and of course, keep the clownfish in the DT).

 

[jbacker7]

When clownfish "divebomb" into a carpet anemone's mouth, it's usually an indicator that something is wrong. It looks like the carpet trying to acclimate and may do fine in the DT, but a Cipro treatment won't hurt. Just make sure that you follow the protocol, which means QTing in a separate tank (and of course, keep the clownfish in the DT).

Thanks for the advice, D-Nak. Here is the protocol I am planning on following:

Protocol for the antibiotic treatment of S. haddoni carpet anemones

The protocol is as follows: dosing of ciprofloxacin solution to achieve a dosage of .125mg/L (roughly 5mg per 10 gallons) in the system being treated, administered every 12 hours for 5-14 days. I recommend following this protocol in a quarantine system for all new S. haddoni carpet anemones...

www.reef2reef.com

I know other posts recommend cipro at 250 mg / 10 gallons and water changes every day, but I don't have another tank available.

Anyone see concerns with treating in the display tank at 0.125 mg / L as described in the thread above?

 

[billysprout]

please don’t feed it solid food until it’s fully recovered. dose aminos or let it be.

it looks like it’s recovering, maybe just got some internal damage from the shell that it needs to heal. cipro will help prevent a secondary bacterial infection so definitely start that.

ramping your light is ideal, but nems having an instant reaction to the light switching on/off is normal. as long as it’s not shrinking away from the light.

my clowns divebomb their gig every couple days, i think they’re trying to induce it to poop. hopefully it’s not a sign of something sinister

 

[jbacker7]

Through the day yesterday, Wednesday 12/20, the anemone did well. With the decreased lighting, it stayed opened up nicely for most of the day. The tentacles were extended and moving quite a bit. It looked very "luscious" compared to the few days before. It extended it's foot again, seemingly trying to do something with it to get down into the sand, but no luck. I was able to get a good look at the pedal disc and it looks to be free of any physical damage.

Last night, I placed it in the cup again overnight to hold it upright. I don't remember it really touching my forearm while handling it, but my forearm certainly stung after moving it. I think that's a good sign. It seemed like once the lights turned off it tried to contract for the night, but since its foot couldn't go down through the sand it was kind of coming up through its mouth. It didn't look very comfortable. The cup seems to allow the skirt to hang over the edges and the foot to extend downward. I'm assuming that's a more comfortable position for it. It looks like it anyway.

I administered the first dose of cipro, 0.125 mg/L, yesterday at 3:45 PM, again at 9:45 PM, and a third at 6:15 AM this morning. I will give another dose around 12:00 PM today, but then I'm unable to give it another until 12:00 PM tomorrow, Friday. It will have to be what it will be. At that point I will shift to dosing every 12 hours; just trying to make sure it gets a good dose before missing one.

When I came downstairs this morning before the lights came on, the anemone was puffed up about as nicely as I have seen it in 5 days or so. The mouth was still wide open. When I turned on the lights it shrank up a bit, but did not deflate dramatically. Even at it's smaller size right now it's still "puffy", the tentacles are extended and moving. I do see that it is expelling just a little small white film-y stuff now so I think that's good. Hopefully it can get anything old / damaged moved out of its system. I haven't fed the tank in two days just trying to keep pellets out of it's mouth, but I'll have to feed today.

Here's a picture from this morning after lights on.

 

[D-Nak]

Thanks for the advice, D-Nak. Here is the protocol I am planning on following:

Protocol for the antibiotic treatment of S. haddoni carpet anemones

The protocol is as follows: dosing of ciprofloxacin solution to achieve a dosage of .125mg/L (roughly 5mg per 10 gallons) in the system being treated, administered every 12 hours for 5-14 days. I recommend following this protocol in a quarantine system for all new S. haddoni carpet anemones...

www.reef2reef.com

I know other posts recommend cipro at 250 mg / 10 gallons and water changes every day, but I don't have another tank available.

Anyone see concerns with treating in the display tank at 0.125 mg / L as described in the thread above?

I personally think it's easier just to buy a 10 gallon tank from Petco, along with a pump and heater. You'll use less Cipro since dosage is dependent on tank volume.

I have mixed feelings about dosing Cipro in a DT, but apparently it's worked for others.

 

[Spare time]

When clownfish "divebomb" into a carpet anemone's mouth, it's usually an indicator that something is wrong. It looks like the carpet trying to acclimate and may do fine in the DT, but a Cipro treatment won't hurt. Just make sure that you follow the protocol, which means QTing in a separate tank (and of course, keep the clownfish in the DT).

I disagree and a cipro treatment won't hurt. It will actively hurt the anemones microbiome.

 

[Spare time]

Did I miss a phosphate level?


Also that seems like very little light into.

 

[billysprout]

but my forearm certainly stung after moving it. I think that's a good sign.

That's a good sign indeed, it can't sting our hands as easily because the skin is tougher. but our forearms and other bits are fair game if the nem has a strong sting response.

I haven't fed the tank in two days just trying to keep pellets out of it's mouth, but I'll have to feed today.

Here's a picture from this morning after lights on.

your normal cadence of pellets should be fine as long as you puff off any that fall on the oral disc.

I disagree and a cipro treatment won't hurt. It will actively hurt the anemones microbiome.

it's about harm reduction; more important to remove any pathogenic bacteria from the water column while the nem is in this vulnerable state. malicious bacteria will do more damage to a weakened nem than a low dose of cipro ever could.

 

[dieselkeeper]

it's about harm reduction; more important to remove any pathogenic bacteria from the water column while the nem is in this vulnerable state. malicious bacteria will do more damage to a weakened nem than a low dose of cipro ever could.

I agree with @billysprout I successfully treated 2 carpets. Both are a few years old. I never feed them. I just give them clean water, light and flow.

 

[Hot2na]

Try adding amoxicillin with the cipro..potent combo I've used alot lately

 

[jbacker7]

As of today, Saturday 12/23, the anemone is slowing looking better. The mouth is closing further, but still reopens. It often looks nice and inflated, varying sizes throughout the day. Tentacles are fully extended and moving. It was standing up in the cup pretty well so I removed the cup and placed it on the tank bottom. The foot took hold on the glass so I backfilled it with sand. That was this morning. I no longer see the foot attached to the bottom glass while looking up from below. I don't get it.

The anemones "skin" is also looking a little more pink than white. I think it might be an increase in the zooxanthellae population due to low lighting? What would make you guys think it could be time to increase the lighting? I wonder if that's why it won't stick it's foot down either. Maybe it doesn't want to be in that spot because it's not bright enough?

I am dosing 0.125 mg/L cipro now at 12 hour intervals.

 

[dieselkeeper]

You're wasting your time. Treatment is done in sterile tank with no rock or sand. 100 % water change every day. Dose cipro after water change at lights out.

This anemone may go to the point of no return. Deflate and and never recover.

Best of luck

 

[jbacker7]

I should probably add… the reason I am currently attempting to treat in the display tank is because the nearest pet store is 2.5 hours away. It’s a holiday and I have family here from out of town. I don’t know anyone else up here from whom I can borrow a tank.

However, I do have some storage totes that I could probably use for a makeshift QT tank if I need to take more serious action sooner than later.

Any thoughts on that?

Anything needed in there other than a heater and airstone? I guess I don’t really have a great light for the job, but for just a week I have a Fluval Plant 3.0 freshwater light that would be better than nothing.

 

[billysprout]

As of today, Saturday 12/23, the anemone is slowing looking better. The mouth is closing further, but still reopens. It often looks nice and inflated, varying sizes throughout the day. Tentacles are fully extended and moving. It was standing up in the cup pretty well so I removed the cup and placed it on the tank bottom. The foot took hold on the glass so I backfilled it with sand. That was this morning. I no longer see the foot attached to the bottom glass while looking up from below. I don't get it.

The anemones "skin" is also looking a little more pink than white. I think it might be an increase in the zooxanthellae population due to low lighting? What would make you guys think it could be time to increase the lighting? I wonder if that's why it won't stick it's foot down either. Maybe it doesn't want to be in that spot because it's not bright enough?

I am dosing 0.125 mg/L cipro now at 12 hour intervals.

You gotta stop detaching and reattaching the foot, it takes them a lot of energy to A) react to the foot stimuli and B) reanchor itself.

You can move it to the hospital tank now if you want, since it's already detached, but I think staying the course is safer until you're done with the holidays. You can skip the daytime cipro dose as cipro breaks down quickly in light. Just make sure it's not at risk of being flipped over and getting its mouth bits scraped up against the sand.

Hospital tank/bucket will need a PROTECTED heater (haddonis love hugging heaters) and a PROTECTED form of water circulation (so nem doesn't get blended, i prefer sponge filter over airstone as ive had better results) and a light.