New Cycled Tank - Dead Fish...Help!

[WWIII]

So I just Google'd "uronema" and yes! that's exactly what it looked like when one of them was swimming around. Holy smokes, you nailed it. So what should I do? ;Blackeye

Well the good news is there's no fallow period for uronema (you don't have to let your tank sit empty for 76 days). The bad news is that's because uronema can't be starved out like ich and some other diseases that need a fish host. Uronema just keeps swimming around in the tank (far as I know).

Another good bit of news is that uronema generally doesn't affect many of the fish we keep in this hobby. Usually any healthy fish besides chromis won't show signs of uronema and die. I've only seen anthias and chromis die from uronema. Mainly just chromis.

I would make sure there's no ammonia spike. Then if you don't plan on quarantining fish, I would just look at getting some generally considered "easy to keep" fish that aren't prone to disease. I would make sure the LFS has had whatever fish you choose at least for a week or so (in store) and that they are eating well. Any fish that isn't eating, has poor color, has torn/ripped fins, isn't swimming well, etc... would be a fish to avoid.

While I always recommend to quarantine, I know everyone won't. So best you can do is look for healthy active fish, that are eating. Keep the water parameters perfect and stable. Also feed a variety diet of high quality foods.

Most likely if you get another chromis it will contract uronema and not survive. Only way to avoid this is bleach the tank and quarantine every fish. Or just avoid chromis.

 

[shawnriv]

Well the good news is there's no fallow period for uronema (you don't have to let your tank sit empty for 76 days). The bad news is that's because uronema can't be starved out like ich and some other diseases that need a fish host. Uronema just keeps swimming around in the tank (far as I know).

Another good bit of news is that uronema generally doesn't affect many of the fish we keep in this hobby. Usually any healthy fish besides chromis won't show signs of uronema and die. I've only seen anthias and chromis die from uronema. Mainly just chromis.

I would make sure there's no ammonia spike. Then if you don't plan on quarantining fish, I would just look at getting some generally considered "easy to keep" fish that aren't prone to disease. I would make sure the LFS has had whatever fish you choose at least for a week or so (in store) and that they are eating well. Any fish that isn't eating, has poor color, has torn/ripped fins, isn't swimming well, etc... would be a fish to avoid.

While I always recommend to quarantine, I know everyone won't. So best you can do is look for healthy active fish, that are eating. Keep the water parameters perfect and stable. Also feed a variety diet of high quality foods.

Most likely if you get another chromis it will contract uronema and not survive. Only way to avoid this is bleach the tank and quarantine every fish. Or just avoid chromis.

I would say that's terrible news. Lol. Knowing that there is no fallow period, makes it so the disease will never be out of my system unless I tear down and clean every inch of the tank. And to be honest, I always quarantine new arrivals but figured since these were the first fish, I would take a chance and not do it. Shame on me, came around and kick me in the butt big time. I would honestly feel much more comfortable knowing my tank is a sterilized environment for new fish and I'm not taking a chance on an expensive fish being effected because I did not rip down the tank months before. Sorry, I am beyond frustrated right now and ready to call it quits!

 

[WWIII]

#reefsquad
@Humblefish
@melypr1985
@Brew12
@4FordFamily

Just to confirm for you and maybe give you some more advice!

Sorry, it is frustrating I know.

 

[shawnriv]

#reefsquad
@Humblefish
@melypr1985
@Brew12
@4FordFamily

Just to confirm for you and maybe give you some more advice!

Sorry, it is frustrating I know.

Thank you for calling on the troops. Lol. I really do appreciate the help. As you know, the amount of work and thought put into a tank and then one mistake can ruin it all. Hopefully the squad will have a bit more insight.

 

[shawnriv]

BUMP

 

[UncleSalty]

BUMP

If Uronema was in the system, then it definitely has to be drained, disinfected, and redone.

 

[shawnriv]

If Uronema was in the system, then it definitely has to be drained, disinfected, and redone.

I agree. I’m going to have to purchase new sand and I guess bleach or vinegar all the equipment. Not too sure about the rock though. Should I just let it sit out in the sun and dry out or do I need to bleach it?

 

[KJAG]

My pH is 8.2. I used the Red Sea Salt (light blue bucket).

Me too/ switched from Reef Crystals. Good luck w your issues

 

[vetteguy53081]

As I generally advise always and many found out the hard way, Take a water sample to your LFS and do a comparison to assure uyour readings are accurate.
How did you acclimate new fish ?

I recommend to float bags in tank under dim lights as fish are already scared in bag or better yet, pour fish and water into bucket and every 15 mins over 45 mins add a cup or two tank water to bucket. Thereafter net fish and enter into tank or QT if you have one. Leave lights dim until next day

 

[shawnriv]

As I generally advise always and many found out the hard way, Take a water sample to your LFS and do a comparison to assure uyour readings are accurate.
How did you acclimate new fish ?

I recommend to float bags in tank under dim lights as fish are already scared in bag or better yet, pour fish and water into bucket and every 15 mins over 45 mins add a cup or two tank water to bucket. Thereafter net fish and enter into tank or QT if you have one. Leave lights dim until next day

Yes, I acclimated the fish(s) properly. I always temperature float and then drip acclimate right after. I stopped by my LFS and they tested my water; the tank was indeed cycled with no ammonia and no nitrite. I did just add an new chromis to my tank (one I've had in a holding tank from my previous tank) and so far so good. I'm going to observe for about a week to make sure my tank doesn't have a disease lurking in the water column.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

A week!?
It is not possible to install a nitrifying carrying capacity in one week! A nitrifying biofilm is a community of all kinds of bacteria which are not provided by supplements. These communities need a lot of time to gather all co-workers needed and for to work together. A new aquarium needs a lot of nutrients and building materials just to install primary live. In a new lighted aquarium most nutrients will be used for heterothropic growth until the organics are used up and the installation of the photo-autotrops, algae etc. . All this will need a lot of nitrogen and all other elements. The consumption of ammonia does not mean there is a sufficient nitrifying capacity installed! Additives needed to cycle an aquarium may be limited to the mix of food which one is going to use . To provide the building materials to develop a balanced mix of producers, consumers and reducers.
Nitrifiers do not like light. They are big and grow slowly. In a biofilm they are covered by an outer layer of other bacteria to protect them from the light. It takes several weeks before a nitrifying biofilm is installed. This does not mean there is no nitrifying and denitrifying activity possible because a lot of heterotops, which may be present in the water column, are able to perform both tasks aerobically, to some extend. These heterothrops ( o.a.Acinetobacter sp.) can be provide by bacterial supplements but there contribution to the carrying capacity, the ability of the system to reduce ammonia, by nitrification, is very limited.

There may be a thousand reasons why the fish died and the new tank syndrome may not be one of them. But a new tank is not ready to support live after one week!
It can be done by providing enough carbohydrates to maintain a high C:N ratio, this way eliminating the need for and the installation of a nitrifying carrying capacity. But making the tank dependable of daily supplements is not my choice to make.

 

[schooncw]

I have always been a fan of starting a tank with adding a few cheap fish such as damsels or chromis, and building the bacteria that way. As good as the products say they add everything you need, there’s just something about it where you will loose fish in the beginning anyway.

Starting a tank with a few "cheap fish" is unnecessary and cruel and I can never figure out why anyone would do this and if you ghost fed with frozen brine or shrimp and tested your water, you would be fine in due course. As far as losing fish in the beginning being "normal"; that is just plain wrong! Pay attention to what BA said above...

 

[shawnriv]

A week!?
It is not possible to install a nitrifying carrying capacity in one week! A nitrifying biofilm is a community of all kinds of bacteria which are not provided by supplements. These communities need a lot of time to gather all co-workers needed and for to work together. A new aquarium needs a lot of nutrients and building materials just to install primary live. In a new lighted aquarium most nutrients will be used for heterothropic growth until the organics are used up and the installation of the photo-autotrops, algae etc. . All this will need a lot of nitrogen and all other elements. The consumption of ammonia does not mean there is a sufficient nitrifying capacity installed! Additives needed to cycle an aquarium may be limited to the mix of food which one is going to use . To provide the building materials to develop a balanced mix of producers, consumers and reducers.
Nitrifiers do not like light. They are big and grow slowly. In a biofilm they are covered by an outer layer of other bacteria to protect them from the light. It takes several weeks before a nitrifying biofilm is installed. This does not mean there is no nitrifying and denitrifying activity possible because a lot of heterotops, which may be present in the water column, are able to perform both tasks aerobically, to some extend. These heterothrops ( o.a.Acinetobacter sp.) can be provide by bacterial supplements but there contribution to the carrying capacity, the ability of the system to reduce ammonia, by nitrification, is very limited.

There may be a thousand reasons why the fish died and the new tank syndrome may not be one of them. But a new tank is not ready to support live after one week!
It can be done by providing enough carbohydrates to maintain a high C:N ratio, this way eliminating the need for and the installation of a nitrifying carrying capacity. But making the tank dependable of daily supplements is not my choice to make.

A week? Yes. So if a tank is fish-less cycled (straight ammonia) with nitrifying bacteria and is monitored daily, then ammonia and nitrite are both zero...how is it not safe to add fish? Most nitrifying bacterias - Dr. Tim's One & Only, Bio Spira, etc actually recommend tossing a fish in immediately after the bacteria in a bottle is added. Instead, I went fish-less since it's not cruel. I'm sure anyone would agree that once a new tank has no ammonia and nitrite and can process 2ppm of ammonia to 0ppm in less than 24 hours, it is indeed cycled.

Starting a tank with a few "cheap fish" is unnecessary and cruel and I can never figure out why anyone would do this and if you ghost fed with frozen brine or shrimp and tested your water, you would be fine in due course. As far as losing fish in the beginning being "normal"; that is just plain wrong! Pay attention to what BA said above...

As I said above and in my original post, I did not use a "cheap fish" to cycle the new tank. I did a fish-less cycle because it is not "cruel." And as you pointed out, I did "ghost feed" with straight ammonia and test daily until I was able to process 2ppm ammonia in 24 hours.

 

[brandon429]

I have a counter claim

If uro is fallow proof then it's regularly transferred among substrate trading, even stuck to the slime matrix of fish likely, and trying to clean a tank of it is futile since no uro free sourcing exists

It sounds like quality-of-tank suppression is only way

 

[Belgian Anthias]

A week? Yes. So if a tank is fish-less cycled (straight ammonia) with nitrifying bacteria and is monitored daily, then ammonia and nitrite are both zero...how is it not safe to add fish? Most nitrifying bacterias - Dr. Tim's One & Only, Bio Spira, etc actually recommend tossing a fish in immediately after the bacteria in a bottle is added. Instead, I went fish-less since it's not cruel. I'm sure anyone would agree that once a new tank has no ammonia and nitrite and can process 2ppm of ammonia to 0ppm in less than 24 hours, it is indeed cycled.

.

Bacteria in a bottle!? http://www.cryerfamily.eclipse.co.uk/BacteriaBottleParable.htm (
A nitrifying biofilm can not be delivered in a bottle! Do these bottles contain autotropic bacteria? And Sulpur bacteria? What do these bottles contain? Probably they contain a lot of carbohydrates, phosphate and heterothrops!? Anyway, even when these bottles wood contain living strains of all bacteria needed it wood take weeks to install a suitable nitrifying capacity.
Of coarse ammonia is zero in a new aquarium as it is used for growth, certainly when carbohydrates are added and phosphate is available. Bacteria and photo-autothops use the ammonia to grow. The fact ammonia is not measurable does not mean the system has installed a carrying capacity which may support the bio-load of two fishes. What happens when growth slows down due to limited availability of organic carbon? Autothrops may start to install a nitrifying capacity if ammonia is available. This takes weeks! That is why in a new aquarium, without added "bacteria in a bottle" , some normal food is added to decay and or used by primary producers.
This discussion can only lead to something if it is known what exactly is added to the aquarium during the so called "cycling period" of one week. Theoretically a closed aquarium system can only support some bio-load within a week when a high C:N ratio is maintained. And also is maintained after that week as no nitrifying capacity is installed and will not be installed as long a high C:N ratio is maintained by regular additions of organic carbon.

 

[CanadianReefer]

I use these bacteria in a bottle products to seed my rocks and speed up the process, but I still cure my rocks for a few months before adding fish. It's not just about nitrifying bacteria... the rocks will give off phosphates etc., even if it's dry rock, and if it's boat rock, it could have all sorts of decaying matter that needs to settle out before it would be a good environment for fish. That aside, your fish could have died of disease as well. Stress of new environments make issues come to light quite quickly. Velvet comes to mind - it can hit rather quickly. Also, what is your nitrate level?

 

[UncleSalty]

Yes, I acclimated the fish(s) properly. I always temperature float and then drip acclimate right after. I stopped by my LFS and they tested my water; the tank was indeed cycled with no ammonia and no nitrite. I did just add an new chromis to my tank (one I've had in a holding tank from my previous tank) and so far so good. I'm going to observe for about a week to make sure my tank doesn't have a disease lurking in the water column.

You seriously just added another fish to a system with known Uronema? .........My mind in blown.

 

[shawnriv]

You seriously just added another fish to a system with known Uronema? .........My mind in blown.

With known uronema? Incorrect. The theory is the other fish may of had uronema...which means unknown. Is there a test that can be done to know if that is the case? I've asked around and clearly there is not. I went to my LFS owner and he recommended adding the other fish. It doesn't make sense to completely close down a tank; throw away all the brand new sand, toss the the brand new rock, pour 91 gallons down the drain, dissemble all the parts of the tank and soak them in bleach.

 

[CalebWBrink2000]

With known uronema? Incorrect. The theory is the other fish may of had uronema...which means unknown. Is there a test that can be done to know if that is the case? I've asked around and clearly there is not. I went to my LFS owner and he recommended adding the other fish. It doesn't make sense to completely close down a tank; throw away all the brand new sand, toss the the brand new rock, pour 91 gallons down the drain, dissemble all the parts of the tank and soak them in bleach.

I tend to agree with this. I've always thought it to be silly to try and run a sterile reef- reefs are, by nature, unsterile. That's part of why we love them.

If I were you, I would let the tank run for awhile, maybe a few weeks to a month. Let the bacterial colonies get established. Add some pods and maybe some macroalagaes- increase the tank's biodiversity. Then, get some healthy fish and feed them some good food (I like LRS); healthy fish will be able to fight off and resist any nasty disease in the system with no issue. The less stuff there is to stress the fish, the easier this will all be.

 

[zcedric]

air? is there a skimmer or something splashing around? Copper?

maybe you were just unlucky and got two sick ones from the beginning.

*edit* haha i only read the first page.. sorry