Need Help with Frogspawn and Low Nutrient Levels in Euphyllia-Dominated Nano Tank

[RickvDam]

Hello everyone,

It's been a while since I posted because everything has been going great.

My Euphyllia-dominated nano tank is filling up nicely, with some corals splitting. However, my most expensive frogspawn closed up about a month ago. I tried various treatments like Cipro and dipping, but after two weeks, there's still no improvement. It opens slightly for a few minutes each day and then closes again. I have 9 other Euphyllias with 13 heads, all doing well. Any tips?

My parameters are stable, but my phosphates and nitrates are low (0.013 and 9.2). I have a 15G tank with 2 clowns and a yellow clown goby, and I feed flakes daily and Mysis every other day. I've tried raising my mag for a while, but didn't notice any changes so I brought it back to natural levels.

Should I consider raising my phosphate and nitrate levels? I have dosing bottles from my dino battle but am unsure if it will have any positive impact.

 

[Timfish]

Definitly raise PO4, you want it above .03 (here's a post with links if you want more info on this minimum threshold level). Many would consider your system is still maturing so I would suggest not doing anything major and just let things grow for awhile. You also should consider the possibility the conditions in your system may not be favorable for that one species/genotype. Price can be an indicator of how difficult a coral can be to keep and few aquarists are aware of the research showing significant differences in the immune systems at the genotype level and should not be surprised if two specimens of the same species react differently under the same conditions.

 

[RickvDam]

Definitly raise PO4, you want it above .03 (here's a post with links if you want more info on this minimum threshold level). Many would consider your system is still maturing so I would suggest not doing anything major and just let things grow for awhile. You also should consider the possibility the conditions in your system may not be favorable for that one species/genotype. Price can be an indicator of how difficult a coral can be to keep and few aquarists are aware of the research showing significant differences in the immune systems at the genotype level and should not be surprised if two specimens of the same species react differently under the same conditions.

Thanks. That's what I thought about the PO4, but I wasn't completely sure since mixed reefs exist.

The tank is about 1.5 years old. Is it still maturing? I have 2 other frogspawns that are doing fine. Most of my Euphyllia come from the same source, where they all share the same parameters. This one was expensive because it's a duo-color grafted. It was fine for a month before closing up. I try to limit adding more than 2 corals a month since corals are quite expensive in the Netherlands, but it's been a few months since I added anything new. I'll start dosing PO4 and monitor daily consumption. My calcium consumption is lower than expected, so I'm curious about the PO4 effect.

 

[Koty]

Do you dose carbon? If not, then you should (in my opinion).

 

[RickvDam]

Do you dose carbon? If not, then you should (in my opinion).

I do not. I have filter floss, a bag of activated carbon I change monthly, a skimmer and that's it. I only dose AB+.

 

[Koty]

Is it worth carbon dosing while also supplementing Nitrate and Phos?

My overall system is 340gal and pretty heavily stocked, however I consistently dose Brightwell's 5X Nitrate and Phosphate to keep those from bottoming out entirely. Is there an upside to notching up my Nitrate+Phosphate dosing slightly, and then dosing carbon at the same time? Are there...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[RickvDam]

Is it worth carbon dosing while also supplementing Nitrate and Phos?

My overall system is 340gal and pretty heavily stocked, however I consistently dose Brightwell's 5X Nitrate and Phosphate to keep those from bottoming out entirely. Is there an upside to notching up my Nitrate+Phosphate dosing slightly, and then dosing carbon at the same time? Are there...

www.reef2reef.com

I'll check it out. Oh I forgot in my last comment, I also run a UV. I actually never heard of carbon dosing. Is there a good explanation somewhere that describes exactly what it is, how to measure it and where to find the needed items?

 

[Timfish]

Thanks. That's what I thought about the PO4, but I wasn't completely sure since mixed reefs exist.

The tank is about 1.5 years old. Is it still maturing? I have 2 other frogspawns that are doing fine. Most of my Euphyllia come from the same source, where they all share the same parameters. This one was expensive because it's a duo-color grafted. It was fine for a month before closing up. I try to limit adding more than 2 corals a month since corals are quite expensive in the Netherlands, but it's been a few months since I added anything new. I'll start dosing PO4 and monitor daily consumption. My calcium consumption is lower than expected, so I'm curious about the PO4 effect.

Sorry, for some reason I thought it was younger than that, I would consider your's a mature system. Regarding PO4, keep in mind corals utilize particulate organic phosphorus and dissolved organic phosphorus in addition to inorganic phosphrus ,PO4, but we can only test for inorganic. Corals also keep reserves of phospholipids so in a phoshporus limited environment the negative effect may not be seen immediately. There are also species and genotype differences to be considered. There's also grwoth of the animals to be considered and increased need for nutrients.

There's also the microbial stuff to consider. All the animals wee keep are promoting different types of microbes in the water (Aurabiomes) and some are atagonistic. Additionally some coral species are only found in association with sibling species of the same genus and are not found with species of other genus. Since there are wide differences in immune systems between species/genotypes tankmates are a consideration when keeping some specimens.

Short answer is we dealing with real complex ecosystems and most of what's going on we can't test for. So first thing to do is keep numbers in acceptable ranges. Do water changes to keep the stuff that can't be tested for and isn't removed by filters or skimmers from building up and causing issues. Expect not every specimen added will be happy.

Specifically for your frogspawn I would fisrt raise the PO4 then wait several weeks to see how it recovers. Then I would try to match PAR levels and if it's under lower PAR slowly raise it in your tank to an acceptable number.



I see adding labile Dissolved Organic Carbon, DOC aka carbon doisng, has been suggested. This I would strongly advise against. There has been a ton of research done with the effects of labile DOC on corals and all of it is bad as it causes excess microbial growth. This excess growth can cause pathogenic shifts in coral microbiomes, or cause anoxic conditions in coral surface boundary layers or as it's processed by sponges in a system can promote shifts to an algae dominate system (sponges especially some cryptic species, are essential recyclers on reefs and LOVE labile DOC removing it 1000X faster than the bacteria it's added to grow). This is a huge data bomb but it is a very complex topic, here's some links.

"Coral Reefs in the Microbial Seas " This video compliments Rohwer's book of the same title (Paper back is ~$20, Kindle is ~$10), both deal with the conflicting roles of the different types of DOC (carbon dosing) in reef ecosystems and how it can alter coral microbiomes. While there is overlap bewteen his book and the video both have information not covered by the other and together give a broader view of the complex relationships found in reef ecosystems and are an excellent starting point to understand the conflicting roles of Dissolved Organic Carbon (DOC, aka "carbon dosing") in reef ecosystems.

Changing Seas - Mysterious Microbes

Microbial view of Coral Decline

Nitrogen cycling in hte coral holobiont

BActeria and Sponges

Maintenance of Coral Reef Health (refferences at the end)

Optical Feedback Loop in Colorful Coral Bleaching

DNA Sequencing and the Reef Tank Microbiome

Richard Ross What's up with phosphate"

Indirect effects of algae on coral: algae‐mediated, microbe‐induced coral mortality

Error - Cookies Turned Off

onlinelibrary.wiley.com

Influence of coral and algal exudates on microbially mediated reef metabolism.
Coral DOC improves oxygen (autotrophy), algae DOC reduces oxygen (heterotrophy).

Influence of coral and algal exudates on microbially mediated reef metabolism

Benthic primary producers in tropical reef ecosystems can alter biogeochemical cycling and microbial processes in the surrounding seawater. In order to quantify these influences, we measured rates of photosynthesis, respiration, and dissolved organic carbon (DOC) exudate release by the dominant...

peerj.com

Role of elevated organic carbon levels and microbial activity in coral mortality

http://www.int-res.com/articles/meps2006/314/m314p119.pdf

Effects of Coral Reef Benthic Primary Producers on Dissolved Organic Carbon and Microbial Activity
Algae releases significantly more DOC into the water than coral.

Effects of Coral Reef Benthic Primary Producers on Dissolved Organic Carbon and Microbial Activity

Benthic primary producers in marine ecosystems may significantly alter biogeochemical cycling and microbial processes in their surrounding environment. To examine these interactions, we studied dissolved organic matter release by dominant benthic taxa and subsequent microbial remineralization in...

journals.plos.org

Pathologies and mortality rates caused by organic carbon and nutrient stressors in three Caribbean coral species.
DOC caused coral death but not high nitrates, phosphates or ammonium.

http://www.int-res.com/articles/meps2005/294/m294p173.pdf

Visualization of oxygen distribution patterns caused by coral and algae

Visualization of oxygen distribution patterns caused by coral and algae

Planar optodes were used to visualize oxygen distribution patterns associated with a coral reef associated green algae (Chaetomorpha sp.) and a hermatypic coral (Favia sp.) separately, as standalone organisms, and placed in close proximity mimicking coral-algal interactions. Oxygen patterns were...

peerj.com

Biological oxygen demand optode analysis of coral reef-associated microbial communities exposed to algal exudates
Exposure to exudates derived from turf algae stimulated higher oxygen drawdown by the coral-associated bacteria.

Biological oxygen demand optode analysis of coral reef-associated microbial communities exposed to algal exudates

Algae-derived dissolved organic matter has been hypothesized to induce mortality of reef building corals. One proposed killing mechanism is a zone of hypoxia created by rapidly growing microbes. To investigate this hypothesis, biological oxygen demand ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Microbial ecology: Algae feed a shift on coral reefs

Microbial ecology: Algae feed a shift on coral reefs - Nature Microbiology

Human pressures on coral reefs are giving macroalgae a competitive advantage over reef-building corals. These algae support larger, and potentially pathogenic, microbial populations that are metabolically primed for less-efficient, yet faster, carbohydrate remineralization, perpetuating a...

www.nature.com

Coral and macroalgal exudates vary in neutral sugar composition and differentially enrich reef bacterioplankton lineages.

Coral and macroalgal exudates vary in neutral sugar composition and differentially enrich reef bacterioplankton lineages - PubMed

Increasing algal cover on tropical reefs worldwide may be maintained through feedbacks whereby algae outcompete coral by altering microbial activity. We hypothesized that algae and coral release compositionally distinct exudates that differentially alter bacterioplankton growth and community...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Sugar enrichment provides evidence for a role of nitrogen fixation in coral bleaching

Error - Cookies Turned Off

onlinelibrary.wiley.com

Elevated ammonium delays the impairment of the coral-dinoflagellate symbiosis during labile carbon pollution
(here's an argument for maintaining heavy fish loads if you're carbon dosing)

Elevated ammonium delays the impairment of the coral-dinoflagellate symbiosis during labile carbon pollution

Labile dissolved organic carbon (DOC) is a major pollutant in coastal marine environments affected by anthropogenic impacts, and may significantly con…

www.sciencedirect.com

Excess labile carbon promotes the expression of virulence factors in coral reef bacterioplankton

Excess labile carbon promotes the expression of virulence factors in coral reef bacterioplankton - The ISME Journal

Coastal pollution and algal cover are increasing on many coral reefs, resulting in higher dissolved organic carbon (DOC) concentrations. High DOC concentrations strongly affect microbial activity in reef waters and select for copiotrophic, often potentially virulent microbial populations. High...

www.nature.com

Unseen players shape benthic competition on coral reefs.

Unseen players shape benthic competition on coral reefs - PubMed

Recent work has shown that hydrophilic and hydrophobic organic matter (OM) from algae disrupts the function of the coral holobiont and promotes the invasion of opportunistic pathogens, leading to coral morbidity and mortality. Here we refer to these dynamics as the (3)DAM [dissolved organic...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Allelochemicals Produced by Brown Macroalgae of the Lobophora Genus Are Active against Coral Larvae and Associated Bacteria, Supporting Pathogenic Shifts to Vibrio Dominance.

Allelochemicals Produced by Brown Macroalgae of the Lobophora Genus Are Active against Coral Larvae and Associated Bacteria, Supporting Pathogenic Shifts to Vibrio Dominance - PubMed

Diverse microbial communities associate with coral tissues and mucus, providing important protective and nutritional services, but once disturbed, the microbial equilibrium may shift from a beneficial state to one that is detrimental or pathogenic. Macroalgae (e.g., seaweeds) can physically and...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Macroalgae decrease growth and alter microbial community structure of the reef-building coral, Porites astreoides.

Macroalgae decrease growth and alter microbial community structure of the reef-building coral, Porites astreoides - PubMed

With the continued and unprecedented decline of coral reefs worldwide, evaluating the factors that contribute to coral demise is of critical importance. As coral cover declines, macroalgae are becoming more common on tropical reefs. Interactions between these macroalgae and corals may alter the...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Macroalgal extracts induce bacterial assemblage shifts and sublethal tissue stress in Caribbean corals.

Macroalgal extracts induce bacterial assemblage shifts and sublethal tissue stress in Caribbean corals - PubMed

Benthic macroalgae can be abundant on present-day coral reefs, especially where rates of herbivory are low and/or dissolved nutrients are high. This study investigated the impact of macroalgal extracts on both coral-associated bacterial assemblages and sublethal stress response of corals. Crude...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Biophysical and physiological processes causing oxygen loss from coral reefs.

https://elifesciences.org/articles/49114.pdf

Global microbialization of coral reefs
DDAM Proven

Global microbialization of coral reefs - Nature Microbiology

Analysis of 60 sites in three ocean basins suggests that overgrowth of fleshy algae on coral reefs supports higher microbial abundances dominated by copiotrophic, potentially pathogenic bacteria via the provision of dissolved inorganic carbon.

www.nature.com

Coral Reef Microorganisms in a Changing Climate, Fig 3

Coral Reef Microorganisms in a Changing Climate

Coral reefs are one of the most diverse and productive ecosystems on the planet, yet they have suffered tremendous losses due to anthropogenic disturbances and are predicted to be one of the most adversely affected habitats under future climate change ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Ecosystem Microbiology of Coral Reefs: Linking Genomic, Metabolomic, and Biogeochemical Dynamics from Animal Symbioses to Reefscape Processes

https://msystems.asm.org/content/msys/3/2/e00162-17.full.pdf

Because sponges are essential players in the carbon, nitrogen and phosphorus cycle(s) on reefs here's some links to research done with them.

Element cycling on tropical coral reefs.
This is Jasper de Geoij's ground breaking research on reef sponge finding some species process labile DOC 1000X faster than bacterioplankton. (The introduction is in Dutch but the content is in English.)

https://www.rug.nl/research/portal/files/14555035/13completethesis.pdf

Sponge symbionts and the marine P cycle

Sponge symbionts and the marine P cycle

Marine sponges are ubiquitous colonizers of shallow, clear-water environments in the oceans (1, 2). Sponges have emerged as significant mediators of biogeochemical fluxes in coastal zones by virtue of respiring organic matter and facilitating both the consumption and release of nutrients (3, 4)...

www.pnas.org

Phosphorus sequestration in the form of polyphosphate by microbial symbionts in marine sponges

Phosphorus sequestration in the form of polyphosphate by microbial symbionts in marine sponges

Coral reefs are highly productive ecosystems that raise a conundrum called “Darwin’s paradox”: How can high production flourish in low-nutrient conditions? We show here that in three abundant Caribbean sponges, the granules that have been commonly observed in sponge tissue for decades are...

www.pnas.org

Differential recycling of coral and algal dissolved organic matter via the sponge loop.
Sponges treat DOC from algae differently than DOC from corals

Error - Cookies Turned Off

besjournals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com

A Vicious Circle? Altered Carbon and Nutrient Cycling May Explain the Low Resilience of Caribbean Coral Reefs

A Vicious Circle? Altered Carbon and Nutrient Cycling May Explain the Low Resilience of Caribbean Coral Reefs

Coral reefs are economically important ecosystems that have suffered unprecedented losses of corals in the recent past. Why have Caribbean reefs in particu

academic.oup.com

Surviving in a Marine Desert The Sponge Loop Retains Resources Within Coral Reefs
Dissolved organic carbon and nitrogen are quickly processed by sponges and released back into the reef food web in hours as carbon and nitrogen rich detritus.

(PDF) 2013 deGoeij Science Sponge loop

PDF | On Jun 23, 2015, Jasper M de Goeij and others published 2013 deGoeij Science Sponge loop | Find, read and cite all the research you need on ResearchGate

www.researchgate.net

Natural Diet of Coral-Excavating Sponges Consists Mainly of Dissolved Organic Carbon (DOC)

Natural Diet of Coral-Excavating Sponges Consists Mainly of Dissolved Organic Carbon (DOC)

Coral-excavating sponges are the most important bioeroders on Caribbean reefs and increase in abundance throughout the region. This increase is commonly attributed to a concomitant increase in food availability due to eutrophication and pollution. We ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

The Role of Marine Sponges in Carbon and Nitrogen Cycles of COral Reefs and Nearshore Environments.

The role of marine sponges in carbon and nitrogen cycles of coral reef and nearshore environments - ProQuest

Explore millions of resources from scholarly journals, books, newspapers, videos and more, on the ProQuest Platform.

search.proquest.com

 

[RickvDam]

Sorry, for some reason I thought it was younger than that, I would consider your's a mature system. Regarding PO4, keep in mind corals utilize particulate organic phosphorus and dissolved organic phosphorus in addition to inorganic phosphrus ,PO4, but we can only test for inorganic. Corals also keep reserves of phospholipids so in a phoshporus limited environment the negative effect may not be seen immediately. There are also species and genotype differences to be considered. There's also grwoth of the animals to be considered and increased need for nutrients.

There's also the microbial stuff to consider. All the animals wee keep are promoting different types of microbes in the water (Aurabiomes) and some are atagonistic. Additionally some coral species are only found in association with sibling species of the same genus and are not found with species of other genus. Since there are wide differences in immune systems between species/genotypes tankmates are a consideration when keeping some specimens.

Short answer is we dealing with real complex ecosystems and most of what's going on we can't test for. So first thing to do is keep numbers in acceptable ranges. Do water changes to keep the stuff that can't be tested for and isn't removed by filters or skimmers from building up and causing issues. Expect not every specimen added will be happy.

Specifically for your frogspawn I would fisrt raise the PO4 then wait several weeks to see how it recovers. Then I would try to match PAR levels and if it's under lower PAR slowly raise it in your tank to an acceptable number.



I see adding labile Dissolved Organic Carbon, DOC aka carbon doisng, has been suggested. This I would strongly advise against. There has been a ton of research done with the effects of labile DOC on corals and all of it is bad as it causes excess microbial growth. This excess growth can cause pathogenic shifts in coral microbiomes, or cause anoxic conditions in coral surface boundary layers or as it's processed by sponges in a system can promote shifts to an algae dominate system (sponges especially some cryptic species, are essential recyclers on reefs and LOVE labile DOC removing it 1000X faster than the bacteria it's added to grow). This is a huge data bomb but it is a very complex topic, here's some links.

"Coral Reefs in the Microbial Seas " This video compliments Rohwer's book of the same title (Paper back is ~$20, Kindle is ~$10), both deal with the conflicting roles of the different types of DOC (carbon dosing) in reef ecosystems and how it can alter coral microbiomes. While there is overlap bewteen his book and the video both have information not covered by the other and together give a broader view of the complex relationships found in reef ecosystems and are an excellent starting point to understand the conflicting roles of Dissolved Organic Carbon (DOC, aka "carbon dosing") in reef ecosystems.

Changing Seas - Mysterious Microbes

Microbial view of Coral Decline

Nitrogen cycling in hte coral holobiont

BActeria and Sponges

Maintenance of Coral Reef Health (refferences at the end)

Optical Feedback Loop in Colorful Coral Bleaching

DNA Sequencing and the Reef Tank Microbiome

Richard Ross What's up with phosphate"

Indirect effects of algae on coral: algae‐mediated, microbe‐induced coral mortality

Error - Cookies Turned Off

onlinelibrary.wiley.com

Influence of coral and algal exudates on microbially mediated reef metabolism.
Coral DOC improves oxygen (autotrophy), algae DOC reduces oxygen (heterotrophy).

Influence of coral and algal exudates on microbially mediated reef metabolism

Benthic primary producers in tropical reef ecosystems can alter biogeochemical cycling and microbial processes in the surrounding seawater. In order to quantify these influences, we measured rates of photosynthesis, respiration, and dissolved organic carbon (DOC) exudate release by the dominant...

peerj.com

Role of elevated organic carbon levels and microbial activity in coral mortality

http://www.int-res.com/articles/meps2006/314/m314p119.pdf

Effects of Coral Reef Benthic Primary Producers on Dissolved Organic Carbon and Microbial Activity
Algae releases significantly more DOC into the water than coral.

Effects of Coral Reef Benthic Primary Producers on Dissolved Organic Carbon and Microbial Activity

Benthic primary producers in marine ecosystems may significantly alter biogeochemical cycling and microbial processes in their surrounding environment. To examine these interactions, we studied dissolved organic matter release by dominant benthic taxa and subsequent microbial remineralization in...

journals.plos.org

Pathologies and mortality rates caused by organic carbon and nutrient stressors in three Caribbean coral species.
DOC caused coral death but not high nitrates, phosphates or ammonium.

http://www.int-res.com/articles/meps2005/294/m294p173.pdf

Visualization of oxygen distribution patterns caused by coral and algae

Visualization of oxygen distribution patterns caused by coral and algae

Planar optodes were used to visualize oxygen distribution patterns associated with a coral reef associated green algae (Chaetomorpha sp.) and a hermatypic coral (Favia sp.) separately, as standalone organisms, and placed in close proximity mimicking coral-algal interactions. Oxygen patterns were...

peerj.com

Biological oxygen demand optode analysis of coral reef-associated microbial communities exposed to algal exudates
Exposure to exudates derived from turf algae stimulated higher oxygen drawdown by the coral-associated bacteria.

Biological oxygen demand optode analysis of coral reef-associated microbial communities exposed to algal exudates

Algae-derived dissolved organic matter has been hypothesized to induce mortality of reef building corals. One proposed killing mechanism is a zone of hypoxia created by rapidly growing microbes. To investigate this hypothesis, biological oxygen demand ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Microbial ecology: Algae feed a shift on coral reefs

Microbial ecology: Algae feed a shift on coral reefs - Nature Microbiology

Human pressures on coral reefs are giving macroalgae a competitive advantage over reef-building corals. These algae support larger, and potentially pathogenic, microbial populations that are metabolically primed for less-efficient, yet faster, carbohydrate remineralization, perpetuating a...

www.nature.com

Coral and macroalgal exudates vary in neutral sugar composition and differentially enrich reef bacterioplankton lineages.

Coral and macroalgal exudates vary in neutral sugar composition and differentially enrich reef bacterioplankton lineages - PubMed

Increasing algal cover on tropical reefs worldwide may be maintained through feedbacks whereby algae outcompete coral by altering microbial activity. We hypothesized that algae and coral release compositionally distinct exudates that differentially alter bacterioplankton growth and community...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Sugar enrichment provides evidence for a role of nitrogen fixation in coral bleaching

Error - Cookies Turned Off

onlinelibrary.wiley.com

Elevated ammonium delays the impairment of the coral-dinoflagellate symbiosis during labile carbon pollution
(here's an argument for maintaining heavy fish loads if you're carbon dosing)

Elevated ammonium delays the impairment of the coral-dinoflagellate symbiosis during labile carbon pollution

Labile dissolved organic carbon (DOC) is a major pollutant in coastal marine environments affected by anthropogenic impacts, and may significantly con…

www.sciencedirect.com

Excess labile carbon promotes the expression of virulence factors in coral reef bacterioplankton

Excess labile carbon promotes the expression of virulence factors in coral reef bacterioplankton - The ISME Journal

Coastal pollution and algal cover are increasing on many coral reefs, resulting in higher dissolved organic carbon (DOC) concentrations. High DOC concentrations strongly affect microbial activity in reef waters and select for copiotrophic, often potentially virulent microbial populations. High...

www.nature.com

Unseen players shape benthic competition on coral reefs.

Unseen players shape benthic competition on coral reefs - PubMed

Recent work has shown that hydrophilic and hydrophobic organic matter (OM) from algae disrupts the function of the coral holobiont and promotes the invasion of opportunistic pathogens, leading to coral morbidity and mortality. Here we refer to these dynamics as the (3)DAM [dissolved organic...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Allelochemicals Produced by Brown Macroalgae of the Lobophora Genus Are Active against Coral Larvae and Associated Bacteria, Supporting Pathogenic Shifts to Vibrio Dominance.

Allelochemicals Produced by Brown Macroalgae of the Lobophora Genus Are Active against Coral Larvae and Associated Bacteria, Supporting Pathogenic Shifts to Vibrio Dominance - PubMed

Diverse microbial communities associate with coral tissues and mucus, providing important protective and nutritional services, but once disturbed, the microbial equilibrium may shift from a beneficial state to one that is detrimental or pathogenic. Macroalgae (e.g., seaweeds) can physically and...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Macroalgae decrease growth and alter microbial community structure of the reef-building coral, Porites astreoides.

Macroalgae decrease growth and alter microbial community structure of the reef-building coral, Porites astreoides - PubMed

With the continued and unprecedented decline of coral reefs worldwide, evaluating the factors that contribute to coral demise is of critical importance. As coral cover declines, macroalgae are becoming more common on tropical reefs. Interactions between these macroalgae and corals may alter the...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Macroalgal extracts induce bacterial assemblage shifts and sublethal tissue stress in Caribbean corals.

Macroalgal extracts induce bacterial assemblage shifts and sublethal tissue stress in Caribbean corals - PubMed

Benthic macroalgae can be abundant on present-day coral reefs, especially where rates of herbivory are low and/or dissolved nutrients are high. This study investigated the impact of macroalgal extracts on both coral-associated bacterial assemblages and sublethal stress response of corals. Crude...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Biophysical and physiological processes causing oxygen loss from coral reefs.

https://elifesciences.org/articles/49114.pdf

Global microbialization of coral reefs
DDAM Proven

Global microbialization of coral reefs - Nature Microbiology

Analysis of 60 sites in three ocean basins suggests that overgrowth of fleshy algae on coral reefs supports higher microbial abundances dominated by copiotrophic, potentially pathogenic bacteria via the provision of dissolved inorganic carbon.

www.nature.com

Coral Reef Microorganisms in a Changing Climate, Fig 3

Coral Reef Microorganisms in a Changing Climate

Coral reefs are one of the most diverse and productive ecosystems on the planet, yet they have suffered tremendous losses due to anthropogenic disturbances and are predicted to be one of the most adversely affected habitats under future climate change ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Ecosystem Microbiology of Coral Reefs: Linking Genomic, Metabolomic, and Biogeochemical Dynamics from Animal Symbioses to Reefscape Processes

https://msystems.asm.org/content/msys/3/2/e00162-17.full.pdf

Because sponges are essential players in the carbon, nitrogen and phosphorus cycle(s) on reefs here's some links to research done with them.

Element cycling on tropical coral reefs.
This is Jasper de Geoij's ground breaking research on reef sponge finding some species process labile DOC 1000X faster than bacterioplankton. (The introduction is in Dutch but the content is in English.)

https://www.rug.nl/research/portal/files/14555035/13completethesis.pdf

Sponge symbionts and the marine P cycle

Sponge symbionts and the marine P cycle

Marine sponges are ubiquitous colonizers of shallow, clear-water environments in the oceans (1, 2). Sponges have emerged as significant mediators of biogeochemical fluxes in coastal zones by virtue of respiring organic matter and facilitating both the consumption and release of nutrients (3, 4)...

www.pnas.org

Phosphorus sequestration in the form of polyphosphate by microbial symbionts in marine sponges

Phosphorus sequestration in the form of polyphosphate by microbial symbionts in marine sponges

Coral reefs are highly productive ecosystems that raise a conundrum called “Darwin’s paradox”: How can high production flourish in low-nutrient conditions? We show here that in three abundant Caribbean sponges, the granules that have been commonly observed in sponge tissue for decades are...

www.pnas.org

Differential recycling of coral and algal dissolved organic matter via the sponge loop.
Sponges treat DOC from algae differently than DOC from corals

Error - Cookies Turned Off

besjournals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com

A Vicious Circle? Altered Carbon and Nutrient Cycling May Explain the Low Resilience of Caribbean Coral Reefs

A Vicious Circle? Altered Carbon and Nutrient Cycling May Explain the Low Resilience of Caribbean Coral Reefs

Coral reefs are economically important ecosystems that have suffered unprecedented losses of corals in the recent past. Why have Caribbean reefs in particu

academic.oup.com

Surviving in a Marine Desert The Sponge Loop Retains Resources Within Coral Reefs
Dissolved organic carbon and nitrogen are quickly processed by sponges and released back into the reef food web in hours as carbon and nitrogen rich detritus.

(PDF) 2013 deGoeij Science Sponge loop

PDF | On Jun 23, 2015, Jasper M de Goeij and others published 2013 deGoeij Science Sponge loop | Find, read and cite all the research you need on ResearchGate

www.researchgate.net

Natural Diet of Coral-Excavating Sponges Consists Mainly of Dissolved Organic Carbon (DOC)

Natural Diet of Coral-Excavating Sponges Consists Mainly of Dissolved Organic Carbon (DOC)

Coral-excavating sponges are the most important bioeroders on Caribbean reefs and increase in abundance throughout the region. This increase is commonly attributed to a concomitant increase in food availability due to eutrophication and pollution. We ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

The Role of Marine Sponges in Carbon and Nitrogen Cycles of COral Reefs and Nearshore Environments.

The role of marine sponges in carbon and nitrogen cycles of coral reef and nearshore environments - ProQuest

Explore millions of resources from scholarly journals, books, newspapers, videos and more, on the ProQuest Platform.

search.proquest.com

Oh wow that is quite the read. I'm currently at work but when I'm at home I'll take a look at all the sources you send! I really appreciate people like you, the time you spend in helping another. I never really heard about carbon dosing, and as almost everything is happy and growing (fast), I'll pass on the carbon dosing, at least for the time being. I will raise my PO4 to the desired level.

What would you recommend as a level to aim for? What would be the maximum daily increase? Rather not shock the whole tank. When I reach the desired level, test daily for a week and look at the average daily usage right? Then set that up with a doser and continu going back to weekly testing and see if anything improves?

I got one more question, I do a weekly 10% waterchange, how can I calculate that into dosing? Cause if I dose a specific amount daily, weekly waterchanges will still lower it.

(Edit: I have lowered my light slightly about 6 months ago, my par readings were 200-250 at the top, 150-200 in the middle and 60-100 at the bottom. I'm currently running this schedule at 70%, but my blues are higher compared to the rest, so it's a bit lower now but nothing extreme, but my zoa's, candycanes and acan are growing super fast and aren't reaching. I have one torch on the sand which is also happy, growing and not reaching.)

 

[Koty]

A lot of this cited work is on coral reefs and our tanks are not. I carbon dose massively using Tropic Marin stuff and it is working very well for me:

 

[Timfish]

What would you recommend as a level to aim for? What would be the maximum daily increase? Rather not shock the whole tank. When I reach the desired level, test daily for a week and look at the average daily usage right? Then set that up with a doser and continu going back to weekly testing and see if anything improves?

I got one more question, I do a weekly 10% waterchange, how can I calculate that into dosing? Cause if I dose a specific amount daily, weekly waterchanges will still lower it.

Thank you!

Easiest way to increase PO4 is just feed your fish more and test once daily about the same time. As far as acceptable range somewhere above .03 and below .3 mg/l. That's the minimum idenitified by Southampton and the max upwelling supplies to reefs. Since we can't measure particulate and dissolved organic forms and those are being used as well it seems prudent to me to have a bit of a buffer on either end of the range.

(And if you want a mind bender, depending on the food webs in your system, your corals could be the source of PO4. Fig. 4 from this paper on phosphorus cycling in corals:

)

 

[fish farmer]

I would first try feeding a bit more, a LITTLE bit more. Some Reef Roids added occasionally should boost nutrient levels, just don't use the recommended amounts on the package, IMO less is more. Your coral biomass isn't that great, so tiny pinches and monitor nitrate and phosphate.

 

[RickvDam]

Thank you!

Easiest way to increase PO4 is just feed your fish more and test once daily about the same time. As far as acceptable range somewhere above .03 and below .3 mg/l. That's the minimum idenitified by Southampton and the max upwelling supplies to reefs. Since we can't measure particulate and dissolved organic forms and those are being used as well it seems prudent to me to have a bit of a buffer on either end of the range.

(And if you want a mind bender, depending on the food webs in your system, your corals could be the source of PO4. Fig. 4 from this paper on phosphorus cycling in corals:

)

I do feed a lot though…. Like way more then I should but it still gets used up. Just as a quick test I raised my PO4 to 0,06. About 24 hours later I tested it and it’s back down to 0,023. Could my corals really use this much? I know I don’t have dino’s or anything like that.

I would first try feeding a bit more, a LITTLE bit more. Some Reef Roids added occasionally should boost nutrient levels, just don't use the recommended amounts on the package, IMO less is more. Your coral biomass isn't that great, so tiny pinches and monitor nitrate and phosphate.

I was thinking about adding reef roids as a PO4 booster. I already feed quite a lot so even more would feel very wrong. When is it considered a high mass? I got about 20 corals and 8 types of zoa’s. The only thing I don’t like about reef roids is the ability to dose exact amounts of PO4. My parameters are low but very stable, dosing PO4 can keep it just as stable. But adding reef roids will be a guess…

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Dosing food grade sodium phosphate is cheaper and easier than feeding more, and may be a better option when there is already plenty of N, such as nitrate, available..

 

[fish farmer]

I do feed a lot though…. Like way more then I should but it still gets used up. Just as a quick test I raised my PO4 to 0,06. About 24 hours later I tested it and it’s back down to 0,023. Could my corals really use this much? I know I don’t have dino’s or anything like that.


I was thinking about adding reef roids as a PO4 booster. I already feed quite a lot so even more would feel very wrong. When is it considered a high mass? I got about 20 corals and 8 types of zoa’s. The only thing I don’t like about reef roids is the ability to dose exact amounts of PO4. My parameters are low but very stable, dosing PO4 can keep it just as stable. But adding reef roids will be a guess…

Your tank isn't over run with coral, for comparison in my 29 gallon I likely have 100 heads of hammers along with areas overrun with zoas and other softies.

When my tank dropped down to undetectable N and P from very high numbers, I started to feed one cube of formula one daily for several weeks, numbers didn't budge until I tried Reef Roids... although phos didn't spike for me like everyone says. I figured my rock may have been absorbing the extra phos.

 

[Timfish]

I do feed a lot though…. Like way more then I should but it still gets used up. Just as a quick test I raised my PO4 to 0,06. About 24 hours later I tested it and it’s back down to 0,023. Could my corals really use this much? I know I don’t have dino’s or anything like that.

Everything living in your system is using phosphorus. The biofilms (which alter sorbtion properties of the substrates they grow on) and cryptic sponges for example have the potential to sequester huge amounts of phosphorus in various forms.

FWIW, feeding corals directly can be problematic so be patient and methodical. You might first try to find out as much as possible about the frogspawn you're having the most issues with, including fish and other corals it was raised with. The adavantage of feeding fish more is fish excrete ammonia and poop urea both are preffered forms of nitrogen by corals over nitrates and has a lot of carbonate crystals which are an important component to the carbonate cycle in reef ecosystems and there are important micronutrients. Here's some links if you want to go down the rabbit hole

(PDF) Coral farming: Effects of light, water motion and artificial foods

PDF | Improved coral cultivation will facilitate the reduction of wild harvesting, reef restoration, preservation of biodiversity, and the use of corals... | Find, read and cite all the research you need on ResearchGate

www.researchgate.net

Comparing the capacity of five different dietary treatments to optimise growth and nutritional composition in two scleractinian corals

Developing an optimal heterotrophic feeding regime has the potential to improve captive coral growth and health. This study evaluated the efficacy of three exogenous diets: Artemia nauplii (ART), a commercially available coral diet (Reef Roids) (RR), and a novel, micro-bound diet (ATF), against...

journals.plos.org

Elucidating an optimal diet for captive Acropora corals

Developing an optimal heterotrophic feeding regime has the potential to improve the growth and overall health of captive corals. This study evaluated …

www.sciencedirect.com

https://archimer.ifremer.fr/doc/00842/95393/103168.pdf

https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1015895108

https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.1157972