Need Help with Frogspawn and Low Nutrient Levels in Euphyllia-Dominated Nano Tank

RickvDam

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Hello everyone,

It's been a while since I posted because everything has been going great.

My Euphyllia-dominated nano tank is filling up nicely, with some corals splitting. However, my most expensive frogspawn closed up about a month ago. I tried various treatments like Cipro and dipping, but after two weeks, there's still no improvement. It opens slightly for a few minutes each day and then closes again. I have 9 other Euphyllias with 13 heads, all doing well. Any tips?

My parameters are stable, but my phosphates and nitrates are low (0.013 and 9.2). I have a 15G tank with 2 clowns and a yellow clown goby, and I feed flakes daily and Mysis every other day. I've tried raising my mag for a while, but didn't notice any changes so I brought it back to natural levels.

Should I consider raising my phosphate and nitrate levels? I have dosing bottles from my dino battle but am unsure if it will have any positive impact.

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Timfish

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Definitly raise PO4, you want it above .03 (here's a post with links if you want more info on this minimum threshold level). Many would consider your system is still maturing so I would suggest not doing anything major and just let things grow for awhile. You also should consider the possibility the conditions in your system may not be favorable for that one species/genotype. Price can be an indicator of how difficult a coral can be to keep and few aquarists are aware of the research showing significant differences in the immune systems at the genotype level and should not be surprised if two specimens of the same species react differently under the same conditions.
 
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RickvDam

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Definitly raise PO4, you want it above .03 (here's a post with links if you want more info on this minimum threshold level). Many would consider your system is still maturing so I would suggest not doing anything major and just let things grow for awhile. You also should consider the possibility the conditions in your system may not be favorable for that one species/genotype. Price can be an indicator of how difficult a coral can be to keep and few aquarists are aware of the research showing significant differences in the immune systems at the genotype level and should not be surprised if two specimens of the same species react differently under the same conditions.
Thanks. That's what I thought about the PO4, but I wasn't completely sure since mixed reefs exist.

The tank is about 1.5 years old. Is it still maturing? I have 2 other frogspawns that are doing fine. Most of my Euphyllia come from the same source, where they all share the same parameters. This one was expensive because it's a duo-color grafted. It was fine for a month before closing up. I try to limit adding more than 2 corals a month since corals are quite expensive in the Netherlands, but it's been a few months since I added anything new. I'll start dosing PO4 and monitor daily consumption. My calcium consumption is lower than expected, so I'm curious about the PO4 effect.
 

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RickvDam

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I'll check it out. Oh I forgot in my last comment, I also run a UV. I actually never heard of carbon dosing. Is there a good explanation somewhere that describes exactly what it is, how to measure it and where to find the needed items?
 

Timfish

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Thanks. That's what I thought about the PO4, but I wasn't completely sure since mixed reefs exist.

The tank is about 1.5 years old. Is it still maturing? I have 2 other frogspawns that are doing fine. Most of my Euphyllia come from the same source, where they all share the same parameters. This one was expensive because it's a duo-color grafted. It was fine for a month before closing up. I try to limit adding more than 2 corals a month since corals are quite expensive in the Netherlands, but it's been a few months since I added anything new. I'll start dosing PO4 and monitor daily consumption. My calcium consumption is lower than expected, so I'm curious about the PO4 effect.



Sorry, for some reason I thought it was younger than that, I would consider your's a mature system. Regarding PO4, keep in mind corals utilize particulate organic phosphorus and dissolved organic phosphorus in addition to inorganic phosphrus ,PO4, but we can only test for inorganic. Corals also keep reserves of phospholipids so in a phoshporus limited environment the negative effect may not be seen immediately. There are also species and genotype differences to be considered. There's also grwoth of the animals to be considered and increased need for nutrients.

There's also the microbial stuff to consider. All the animals wee keep are promoting different types of microbes in the water (Aurabiomes) and some are atagonistic. Additionally some coral species are only found in association with sibling species of the same genus and are not found with species of other genus. Since there are wide differences in immune systems between species/genotypes tankmates are a consideration when keeping some specimens.

Short answer is we dealing with real complex ecosystems and most of what's going on we can't test for. So first thing to do is keep numbers in acceptable ranges. Do water changes to keep the stuff that can't be tested for and isn't removed by filters or skimmers from building up and causing issues. Expect not every specimen added will be happy.

Specifically for your frogspawn I would fisrt raise the PO4 then wait several weeks to see how it recovers. Then I would try to match PAR levels and if it's under lower PAR slowly raise it in your tank to an acceptable number.



I see adding labile Dissolved Organic Carbon, DOC aka carbon doisng, has been suggested. This I would strongly advise against. There has been a ton of research done with the effects of labile DOC on corals and all of it is bad as it causes excess microbial growth. This excess growth can cause pathogenic shifts in coral microbiomes, or cause anoxic conditions in coral surface boundary layers or as it's processed by sponges in a system can promote shifts to an algae dominate system (sponges especially some cryptic species, are essential recyclers on reefs and LOVE labile DOC removing it 1000X faster than the bacteria it's added to grow). This is a huge data bomb but it is a very complex topic, here's some links.

"Coral Reefs in the Microbial Seas " This video compliments Rohwer's book of the same title (Paper back is ~$20, Kindle is ~$10), both deal with the conflicting roles of the different types of DOC (carbon dosing) in reef ecosystems and how it can alter coral microbiomes. While there is overlap bewteen his book and the video both have information not covered by the other and together give a broader view of the complex relationships found in reef ecosystems and are an excellent starting point to understand the conflicting roles of Dissolved Organic Carbon (DOC, aka "carbon dosing") in reef ecosystems.


Changing Seas - Mysterious Microbes


Microbial view of Coral Decline


Nitrogen cycling in hte coral holobiont


BActeria and Sponges


Maintenance of Coral Reef Health (refferences at the end)


Optical Feedback Loop in Colorful Coral Bleaching


DNA Sequencing and the Reef Tank Microbiome


Richard Ross What's up with phosphate"


Indirect effects of algae on coral: algae‐mediated, microbe‐induced coral mortality

Influence of coral and algal exudates on microbially mediated reef metabolism.
Coral DOC improves oxygen (autotrophy), algae DOC reduces oxygen (heterotrophy).

Role of elevated organic carbon levels and microbial activity in coral mortality

Effects of Coral Reef Benthic Primary Producers on Dissolved Organic Carbon and Microbial Activity
Algae releases significantly more DOC into the water than coral.

Pathologies and mortality rates caused by organic carbon and nutrient stressors in three Caribbean coral species.
DOC caused coral death but not high nitrates, phosphates or ammonium.

Visualization of oxygen distribution patterns caused by coral and algae

Biological oxygen demand optode analysis of coral reef-associated microbial communities exposed to algal exudates
Exposure to exudates derived from turf algae stimulated higher oxygen drawdown by the coral-associated bacteria.

Microbial ecology: Algae feed a shift on coral reefs

Coral and macroalgal exudates vary in neutral sugar composition and differentially enrich reef bacterioplankton lineages.

Sugar enrichment provides evidence for a role of nitrogen fixation in coral bleaching

Elevated ammonium delays the impairment of the coral-dinoflagellate symbiosis during labile carbon pollution
(here's an argument for maintaining heavy fish loads if you're carbon dosing)

Excess labile carbon promotes the expression of virulence factors in coral reef bacterioplankton

Unseen players shape benthic competition on coral reefs.

Allelochemicals Produced by Brown Macroalgae of the Lobophora Genus Are Active against Coral Larvae and Associated Bacteria, Supporting Pathogenic Shifts to Vibrio Dominance.

Macroalgae decrease growth and alter microbial community structure of the reef-building coral, Porites astreoides.

Macroalgal extracts induce bacterial assemblage shifts and sublethal tissue stress in Caribbean corals.

Biophysical and physiological processes causing oxygen loss from coral reefs.

Global microbialization of coral reefs
DDAM Proven

Coral Reef Microorganisms in a Changing Climate, Fig 3

Ecosystem Microbiology of Coral Reefs: Linking Genomic, Metabolomic, and Biogeochemical Dynamics from Animal Symbioses to Reefscape Processes


Because sponges are essential players in the carbon, nitrogen and phosphorus cycle(s) on reefs here's some links to research done with them.

Element cycling on tropical coral reefs.
This is Jasper de Geoij's ground breaking research on reef sponge finding some species process labile DOC 1000X faster than bacterioplankton. (The introduction is in Dutch but the content is in English.)

Sponge symbionts and the marine P cycle

Phosphorus sequestration in the form of polyphosphate by microbial symbionts in marine sponges

Differential recycling of coral and algal dissolved organic matter via the sponge loop.
Sponges treat DOC from algae differently than DOC from corals

A Vicious Circle? Altered Carbon and Nutrient Cycling May Explain the Low Resilience of Caribbean Coral Reefs

Surviving in a Marine Desert The Sponge Loop Retains Resources Within Coral Reefs
Dissolved organic carbon and nitrogen are quickly processed by sponges and released back into the reef food web in hours as carbon and nitrogen rich detritus.

Natural Diet of Coral-Excavating Sponges Consists Mainly of Dissolved Organic Carbon (DOC)

The Role of Marine Sponges in Carbon and Nitrogen Cycles of COral Reefs and Nearshore Environments.
 
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RickvDam

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Sorry, for some reason I thought it was younger than that, I would consider your's a mature system. Regarding PO4, keep in mind corals utilize particulate organic phosphorus and dissolved organic phosphorus in addition to inorganic phosphrus ,PO4, but we can only test for inorganic. Corals also keep reserves of phospholipids so in a phoshporus limited environment the negative effect may not be seen immediately. There are also species and genotype differences to be considered. There's also grwoth of the animals to be considered and increased need for nutrients.

There's also the microbial stuff to consider. All the animals wee keep are promoting different types of microbes in the water (Aurabiomes) and some are atagonistic. Additionally some coral species are only found in association with sibling species of the same genus and are not found with species of other genus. Since there are wide differences in immune systems between species/genotypes tankmates are a consideration when keeping some specimens.

Short answer is we dealing with real complex ecosystems and most of what's going on we can't test for. So first thing to do is keep numbers in acceptable ranges. Do water changes to keep the stuff that can't be tested for and isn't removed by filters or skimmers from building up and causing issues. Expect not every specimen added will be happy.

Specifically for your frogspawn I would fisrt raise the PO4 then wait several weeks to see how it recovers. Then I would try to match PAR levels and if it's under lower PAR slowly raise it in your tank to an acceptable number.



I see adding labile Dissolved Organic Carbon, DOC aka carbon doisng, has been suggested. This I would strongly advise against. There has been a ton of research done with the effects of labile DOC on corals and all of it is bad as it causes excess microbial growth. This excess growth can cause pathogenic shifts in coral microbiomes, or cause anoxic conditions in coral surface boundary layers or as it's processed by sponges in a system can promote shifts to an algae dominate system (sponges especially some cryptic species, are essential recyclers on reefs and LOVE labile DOC removing it 1000X faster than the bacteria it's added to grow). This is a huge data bomb but it is a very complex topic, here's some links.

"Coral Reefs in the Microbial Seas " This video compliments Rohwer's book of the same title (Paper back is ~$20, Kindle is ~$10), both deal with the conflicting roles of the different types of DOC (carbon dosing) in reef ecosystems and how it can alter coral microbiomes. While there is overlap bewteen his book and the video both have information not covered by the other and together give a broader view of the complex relationships found in reef ecosystems and are an excellent starting point to understand the conflicting roles of Dissolved Organic Carbon (DOC, aka "carbon dosing") in reef ecosystems.


Changing Seas - Mysterious Microbes


Microbial view of Coral Decline


Nitrogen cycling in hte coral holobiont


BActeria and Sponges


Maintenance of Coral Reef Health (refferences at the end)


Optical Feedback Loop in Colorful Coral Bleaching


DNA Sequencing and the Reef Tank Microbiome


Richard Ross What's up with phosphate"


Indirect effects of algae on coral: algae‐mediated, microbe‐induced coral mortality

Influence of coral and algal exudates on microbially mediated reef metabolism.
Coral DOC improves oxygen (autotrophy), algae DOC reduces oxygen (heterotrophy).

Role of elevated organic carbon levels and microbial activity in coral mortality

Effects of Coral Reef Benthic Primary Producers on Dissolved Organic Carbon and Microbial Activity
Algae releases significantly more DOC into the water than coral.

Pathologies and mortality rates caused by organic carbon and nutrient stressors in three Caribbean coral species.
DOC caused coral death but not high nitrates, phosphates or ammonium.

Visualization of oxygen distribution patterns caused by coral and algae

Biological oxygen demand optode analysis of coral reef-associated microbial communities exposed to algal exudates
Exposure to exudates derived from turf algae stimulated higher oxygen drawdown by the coral-associated bacteria.

Microbial ecology: Algae feed a shift on coral reefs

Coral and macroalgal exudates vary in neutral sugar composition and differentially enrich reef bacterioplankton lineages.

Sugar enrichment provides evidence for a role of nitrogen fixation in coral bleaching

Elevated ammonium delays the impairment of the coral-dinoflagellate symbiosis during labile carbon pollution
(here's an argument for maintaining heavy fish loads if you're carbon dosing)

Excess labile carbon promotes the expression of virulence factors in coral reef bacterioplankton

Unseen players shape benthic competition on coral reefs.

Allelochemicals Produced by Brown Macroalgae of the Lobophora Genus Are Active against Coral Larvae and Associated Bacteria, Supporting Pathogenic Shifts to Vibrio Dominance.

Macroalgae decrease growth and alter microbial community structure of the reef-building coral, Porites astreoides.

Macroalgal extracts induce bacterial assemblage shifts and sublethal tissue stress in Caribbean corals.

Biophysical and physiological processes causing oxygen loss from coral reefs.

Global microbialization of coral reefs
DDAM Proven

Coral Reef Microorganisms in a Changing Climate, Fig 3

Ecosystem Microbiology of Coral Reefs: Linking Genomic, Metabolomic, and Biogeochemical Dynamics from Animal Symbioses to Reefscape Processes


Because sponges are essential players in the carbon, nitrogen and phosphorus cycle(s) on reefs here's some links to research done with them.

Element cycling on tropical coral reefs.
This is Jasper de Geoij's ground breaking research on reef sponge finding some species process labile DOC 1000X faster than bacterioplankton. (The introduction is in Dutch but the content is in English.)

Sponge symbionts and the marine P cycle

Phosphorus sequestration in the form of polyphosphate by microbial symbionts in marine sponges

Differential recycling of coral and algal dissolved organic matter via the sponge loop.
Sponges treat DOC from algae differently than DOC from corals

A Vicious Circle? Altered Carbon and Nutrient Cycling May Explain the Low Resilience of Caribbean Coral Reefs

Surviving in a Marine Desert The Sponge Loop Retains Resources Within Coral Reefs
Dissolved organic carbon and nitrogen are quickly processed by sponges and released back into the reef food web in hours as carbon and nitrogen rich detritus.

Natural Diet of Coral-Excavating Sponges Consists Mainly of Dissolved Organic Carbon (DOC)

The Role of Marine Sponges in Carbon and Nitrogen Cycles of COral Reefs and Nearshore Environments.

Oh wow that is quite the read. I'm currently at work but when I'm at home I'll take a look at all the sources you send! I really appreciate people like you, the time you spend in helping another. I never really heard about carbon dosing, and as almost everything is happy and growing (fast), I'll pass on the carbon dosing, at least for the time being. I will raise my PO4 to the desired level.

What would you recommend as a level to aim for? What would be the maximum daily increase? Rather not shock the whole tank. When I reach the desired level, test daily for a week and look at the average daily usage right? Then set that up with a doser and continu going back to weekly testing and see if anything improves?

I got one more question, I do a weekly 10% waterchange, how can I calculate that into dosing? Cause if I dose a specific amount daily, weekly waterchanges will still lower it.

(Edit: I have lowered my light slightly about 6 months ago, my par readings were 200-250 at the top, 150-200 in the middle and 60-100 at the bottom. I'm currently running this schedule at 70%, but my blues are higher compared to the rest, so it's a bit lower now but nothing extreme, but my zoa's, candycanes and acan are growing super fast and aren't reaching. I have one torch on the sand which is also happy, growing and not reaching.)
 

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A lot of this cited work is on coral reefs and our tanks are not. I carbon dose massively using Tropic Marin stuff and it is working very well for me:

 

Timfish

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What would you recommend as a level to aim for? What would be the maximum daily increase? Rather not shock the whole tank. When I reach the desired level, test daily for a week and look at the average daily usage right? Then set that up with a doser and continu going back to weekly testing and see if anything improves?

I got one more question, I do a weekly 10% waterchange, how can I calculate that into dosing? Cause if I dose a specific amount daily, weekly waterchanges will still lower it.

Thank you! :D

Easiest way to increase PO4 is just feed your fish more and test once daily about the same time. As far as acceptable range somewhere above .03 and below .3 mg/l. That's the minimum idenitified by Southampton and the max upwelling supplies to reefs. Since we can't measure particulate and dissolved organic forms and those are being used as well it seems prudent to me to have a bit of a buffer on either end of the range.

(And if you want a mind bender, depending on the food webs in your system, your corals could be the source of PO4. Fig. 4 from this paper on phosphorus cycling in corals:

DIP DOP POP.jpg )
 

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I would first try feeding a bit more, a LITTLE bit more. Some Reef Roids added occasionally should boost nutrient levels, just don't use the recommended amounts on the package, IMO less is more. Your coral biomass isn't that great, so tiny pinches and monitor nitrate and phosphate.
 
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RickvDam

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Thank you! :D

Easiest way to increase PO4 is just feed your fish more and test once daily about the same time. As far as acceptable range somewhere above .03 and below .3 mg/l. That's the minimum idenitified by Southampton and the max upwelling supplies to reefs. Since we can't measure particulate and dissolved organic forms and those are being used as well it seems prudent to me to have a bit of a buffer on either end of the range.

(And if you want a mind bender, depending on the food webs in your system, your corals could be the source of PO4. Fig. 4 from this paper on phosphorus cycling in corals:

DIP DOP POP.jpg )
I do feed a lot though…. Like way more then I should but it still gets used up. Just as a quick test I raised my PO4 to 0,06. About 24 hours later I tested it and it’s back down to 0,023. Could my corals really use this much? I know I don’t have dino’s or anything like that.

I would first try feeding a bit more, a LITTLE bit more. Some Reef Roids added occasionally should boost nutrient levels, just don't use the recommended amounts on the package, IMO less is more. Your coral biomass isn't that great, so tiny pinches and monitor nitrate and phosphate.
I was thinking about adding reef roids as a PO4 booster. I already feed quite a lot so even more would feel very wrong. When is it considered a high mass? I got about 20 corals and 8 types of zoa’s. The only thing I don’t like about reef roids is the ability to dose exact amounts of PO4. My parameters are low but very stable, dosing PO4 can keep it just as stable. But adding reef roids will be a guess…
 

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I do feed a lot though…. Like way more then I should but it still gets used up. Just as a quick test I raised my PO4 to 0,06. About 24 hours later I tested it and it’s back down to 0,023. Could my corals really use this much? I know I don’t have dino’s or anything like that.


I was thinking about adding reef roids as a PO4 booster. I already feed quite a lot so even more would feel very wrong. When is it considered a high mass? I got about 20 corals and 8 types of zoa’s. The only thing I don’t like about reef roids is the ability to dose exact amounts of PO4. My parameters are low but very stable, dosing PO4 can keep it just as stable. But adding reef roids will be a guess…
Your tank isn't over run with coral, for comparison in my 29 gallon I likely have 100 heads of hammers along with areas overrun with zoas and other softies.

When my tank dropped down to undetectable N and P from very high numbers, I started to feed one cube of formula one daily for several weeks, numbers didn't budge until I tried Reef Roids... although phos didn't spike for me like everyone says. I figured my rock may have been absorbing the extra phos.
 

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I do feed a lot though…. Like way more then I should but it still gets used up. Just as a quick test I raised my PO4 to 0,06. About 24 hours later I tested it and it’s back down to 0,023. Could my corals really use this much? I know I don’t have dino’s or anything like that.

Everything living in your system is using phosphorus. The biofilms (which alter sorbtion properties of the substrates they grow on) and cryptic sponges for example have the potential to sequester huge amounts of phosphorus in various forms.

FWIW, feeding corals directly can be problematic so be patient and methodical. You might first try to find out as much as possible about the frogspawn you're having the most issues with, including fish and other corals it was raised with. The adavantage of feeding fish more is fish excrete ammonia and poop urea both are preffered forms of nitrogen by corals over nitrates and has a lot of carbonate crystals which are an important component to the carbonate cycle in reef ecosystems and there are important micronutrients. Here's some links if you want to go down the rabbit hole






 
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