Need help! Fish are dying but inverts are fine

[AKreuzer]

150g DP (first fish 9/5/22)
55g sump
theiling roller mat for filter
3- AI Hydra 32's
used a blend of white rock and "life" rock
Sand bed is about 1-1/2 inches thick
Neptune Apex (PH Temp ORP)
Dr Tims One and Only had been added occasionally, especially after adding new fish

Fish	Status	Date	Death	Quantity
ocellaris clownfish	Deceased	9/5/2022​	11/21/2022​	2
Foxface Rabbit Fish	Deceased	9/26/2022​	11/20/2022​	1
Emerald Crab	Adopted	10/12/2022​		1
Astrea Snails	Adopted	10/12/2022​		2
6-line Wrasse	Deceased	10/19/2022​	~10/27/2022	1	Killed by Emerald Crab (got rid of large EC and kept the small EC)
Melanarus Wrasse	Deceased	11/3/2022​	11/22/2022​	1
Naso Tang	Deceased	11/3/2022​	11/19/2022​	1
Blue Hippo Tang	Deceased	11/3/2022​	11/22/2022​	1
Brown banded (Dragon) Goby	Deceased	11/14/2022​	11/22/2022​	1
Cleaner Shrimp	Adopted	11/3/2022​		2

I was checking parameters weekly at my local LFS ammonia after the initial cycle was almost always non existant same as Nitrite, Nitrate was there but always in a healthy range...they didnt give me a specific value other than it was good.

On 11/5 there was a water test done and again everything was fine, a small blip in Nitrite but I added some Dr Tims and then by 11/7 it was all cleared up and back to 0 Ammonia and Nitrite

on 11/19 all my fish came out to eat their morning clip of Nori and then 10hrs later the Naso was a dark color and swimming funny within the next 3 hours he would lay on the sand bed breathing hard and then eventually died.... the rest of the fish listed as deceased all the same.....from the time they showed symptoms they were dead within 12 hours.

symptoms typically started with swimming with an upward angle. then laying on the sand bed struggling to breath and then death.

through out all of this and still, ALL INVERTS ARE THRIVING. Snails, EC, Shrimp all fine.

11/21 I administered the recommended dose of Prozipro because we believed it might have been Flukes.

I doubled down on gettin my own tests kits to get faster results and little more control. Purchase either Hanna or Salifert and now after being 1 week without fish and the Prazipro having run its full cycle my paramaters are as follows
Salinity 1.026
Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 1.8
Phosphate 0
ORP 312
PH 7.8
Tmp 77.5

So after everything sat with just inverts we decided we need a cannary to send in the coal mine, Purchased 2 clown fish and began acclimating them.
*Acclimating process (in a speciman container adding 1oz. of tank water ever 5min until salinity reaches 1.020+)(this usually takes 2-3 hours)
starting Salinity was ~1.012
as the salinity reached 1.018 and about 2 hours had gone by the fish were swimming at an upward angle and starting to lay on the ground of the container and struggling to breath
I scrambled to put a hospital tank together but to no avail they both died within 6 hours of getting them home and trying to acclimate them.

What I have ruled out
-parasite/disease- no way a parasite or disease would kill in 6 hours (while acclimating)
-base water paramters- like mentioned above paramters have not deviated far if at all from what is listed above....the LFS did mention my Nitrate was a bit low compared to where it had been but we figured thats because there havent been any fish in there in a week
-voltage leak- these 2 clowns were having symptoms still in the specimen container while acclimating.
-Oxygen- sump is entirely open top, the DP has egg crate and Lexan set on top loose (the lexan is curled a little bit because that was what i used before having the egg crate and it sagged a bit now its ontop of the egg crate just to reduce evaporation)

Please any suggestions/recomendations on things to try I am open to them.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Welcome to Reef2Reef!

The symptoms you report (rapid breathing and sudden death, but the invertebrates are all fine) indicates a gill parasite in the fish. The most common one is velvet, Amyloodinium.

As far as your "canary" test fish - was that a typo, did they actually arrive in 1.012 SG water? If so, you should never raise fish out of that low of a SG unless doing it over multiple days. You raised them from 1.012 to 1.018, which is 6 points (4 points is the most I suggest at one time, 3 is better). If they ultimately went higher than that, it would be fatal. The store should have cautioned you about that I think.

Jay

 

[AKreuzer]

Welcome to Reef2Reef!

The symptoms you report (rapid breathing and sudden death, but the invertebrates are all fine)

As far as your "canary" test fish - was that a typo, did they actually arrive in 1.012 SG water? If so, you should never raise fish out of that low of a SG unless doing it over multiple days. You raised them from 1.012 to 1.018, which is 6 points (4 points is the most I suggest at one time, 3 is better). If they ultimately went higher than that, it would be fatal. The store should have cautioned you about that I think.

Jay

Yes, Typo, it is Canary

Between 1.012 and 1.014....they have all come in that low....what would be the symptoms of them acclimating too quickly?

"indicates a gill parasite in the fish. The most common one is velvet, Amyloodinium." How fast could that kill a fish?...the "Canary" fish had been at the LFS for months and shortly after they were acclimating with my tank water symptomology was showing and within 6hrs of entering my home they were dead.

* I guess one symptomology i should bring up is that their slime coat almost seems like it is peeling off? Im not sure if that makes sense but thats my novice description of my observation

I have been thinking of adding a carbon bag as something that could help but what could it be? what can I test for?

 

[homer1475]

* I guess one symptomology i should bring up is that their slime coat almost seems like it is peeling off? Im not sure if that makes sense but thats my novice description of my observation

This right here sounds to be brooklynella. And yes it can kill that fast.

It's actually a buildup of their slime coat, not that their slime coat is coming off.

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

This right here sounds to be brooklynella. And yes it can kill that fast.

It's actually a buildup of their slime coat, not that their slime coat is coming off.

*Unless it's a rabbitfish

 

[brandon429]

I guarantee if you had reported .5 ammonia this would be blamed on cycling. amazing luck stroke / very rare/ to have a zero report considering the bulk of reef tanks don't run at hard zero on nh4 kits

this is a very helpful thread to highlight the impact of acclimation in fish keeping


lastly: never rule out disease if you're skipping preps. it's just delayed/this isn't the last go considering that diverse list above...source/posts in the disease forum for dry rock starts using those same groups.

would you do quarantine if given the chance to start over, assess the fish before going into main display

 

[homer1475]

*Unless it's a rabbitfish

I know brook is usually a clown/damsel fish disease, but what does a rabbit fish have to do with anything?

Generally curious as I have never had to deal with brook before. I was just extrapolating by the description of the what "looks like their slime coat is coming off".

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

Yes, Typo, it is Canary

Between 1.012 and 1.014....they have all come in that low....what would be the symptoms of them acclimating too quickly?

"indicates a gill parasite in the fish. The most common one is velvet, Amyloodinium." How fast could that kill a fish?...the "Canary" fish had been at the LFS for months and shortly after they were acclimating with my tank water symptomology was showing and within 6hrs of entering my home they were dead.

* I guess one symptomology i should bring up is that their slime coat almost seems like it is peeling off? Im not sure if that makes sense but thats my novice description of my observation

I have been thinking of adding a carbon bag as something that could help but what could it be? what can I test for?

I think you need to find another LFS... While some (most?) stores keep their fish in lower salinity than what's recommend for reef tanks, 1.012 is rather extreme and as @Jay Hemdal said, makes acclimating fish difficult since the salinity can't be safely raised in a short period of time.

Stores often keep fish at somewhat hyposaline levels in part to reduce parasites, but in some cases this can just reduce symptoms of infection and when they are back at 1.025, the symptoms come back... (@Jay Hemdal , please correct me if I'm wrong...)

You said you have good oxygenation because of the open sump, but what water movement/surface agitation is in the tank?

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

I know brook is usually a clown/damsel fish disease, but what does a rabbit fish have to do with anything?

Generally curious as I have never had to deal with brook before. I was just extrapolating by the description of the what "looks like their slime coat is coming off".

Rabbitfish routinely shed their slime coat. I wasn't commenting about brook specifically.
I should have been more clear in my original reply.

 

[brandon429]

this thread will be the #1 read in our cycle study thread for a while, even though it's not about cycling. this trend right here is the #1 thing all cycling aquarists need to be ready for, based on new trending of the day from post collections in the disease forum and also found by taking any new tank posted to the site and tracking out update trends for eight months.

disease losses from whatever agents are mounting in an impressive manner, we'll need to head it off somehow. Brook and parasites, two fast-acting killers are implicated here, systemic infection can't be ruled out it seems. I'm interested to know how this tank will be recommended to prepare for new fish stocking.

AKreuzer​

thank you for posting the thread with such good details, measurements etc this can be used to really help thousands of cycling tanks coming up '23 and onward.

 

[AKreuzer]

I guarantee if you had reported .5 ammonia this would be blamed on cycling. amazing luck stroke / very rare/ to have a zero report considering the bulk of reef tanks don't run at hard zero on nh4 kits

this is a very helpful thread to highlight the impact of acclimation in fish keeping


lastly: never rule out disease if you're skipping preps. it's just delayed/this isn't the last go considering that diverse list above...source/posts in the disease forum for dry rock starts using those same groups.

would you do quarantine if given the chance to start over, assess the fish before going into main display

"amazing luck stroke / very rare/ to have a zero" since the initial cycle the majority of the time with the LFS API test kit it was a 0 or barely detectable.

"would you do quarantine if given the chance to start over, assess the fish before going into main display"

I had worked out that the LFS monitor them for 1-2 weeks before I take them....I was trying to delay the cost of a QT tank but have since aquired a 40g breeder, light, heater etc. so to answer you questions, would I, Yes, Getting there

"skipping preps" does preps =QT ? if not what is Preps?

 

[AKreuzer]

This right here sounds to be brooklynella. And yes it can kill that fast.

It's actually a buildup of their slime coat, not that their slime coat is coming off.

If Brooklynella. whats my path forward? What's the do it right, most risk reduced, path forward. Sending "canary's" in makes me feel gross especially when it doesnt fair well.

 

[homer1475]

You would have to ask someone much more versed then I am. I have never had to deal with it. Not sure if just a fallow period will cure it?

I'm sure @Jay Hemdal has a stickie in the disease section.

 

[AKreuzer]

I think you need to find another LFS... While some (most?) stores keep their fish in lower salinity than what's recommend for reef tanks, 1.012 is rather extreme and as @Jay Hemdal said, makes acclimating fish difficult since the salinity can't be safely raised in a short period of time.

Stores often keep fish at somewhat hyposaline levels in part to reduce parasites, but in some cases this can just reduce symptoms of infection and when they are back at 1.025, the symptoms come back... (@Jay Hemdal , please correct me if I'm wrong...)

You said you have good oxygenation because of the open sump, but what water movement/surface agitation is in the tank?

I have the return pump "y'd" into 2 lock lines shooting accross the surface....."strong ripples" for the first 1/2 and then the second half has movement ripples ....not sure if that makes sense.

 

[brandon429]

that was reasonable prep to ask a LFS to do that, nice going. I think the main differences are the pet stores have so much aerosolized transfer among tanks and other septic pathways it's just not something they can do well unless they have a very very unique setup.


we have to do it at home, or buy from places like Dr. Reef's pre quarantined fish / a few places sell the correct preps/

buying prepped/quarantined fish only helps if you have handled all the additions to your new reef in such a way as to lessen or prevent disease transfer not attached to fish. anything wet you add is a risk


you starting with dry rock didn't have fish disease..but when you add corals, inverts, frags, things wet the disease components vector in, gotta read a day or two's info in the stickies in Jays forum and some pathogens can't be removed with fallow preps anyway... they have to be observed in quarantine and dealt with before the main tank is ever exposed.

you want to study fallow, quarantine, tank transfer methodology and pre-treating certain species in quarantine vs observational quarantine from Jay's disease forum here on the site. Study long fallow periods vs short fallow periods with higher temps, many nuances the pet store wasn't likely to implement.

if you had planned two clowns and goby this detail wouldnt be as impactful, but that spread of fish you have requires it.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Yes, Typo, it is Canary

Between 1.012 and 1.014....they have all come in that low....what would be the symptoms of them acclimating too quickly?

"indicates a gill parasite in the fish. The most common one is velvet, Amyloodinium." How fast could that kill a fish?...the "Canary" fish had been at the LFS for months and shortly after they were acclimating with my tank water symptomology was showing and within 6hrs of entering my home they were dead.

* I guess one symptomology i should bring up is that their slime coat almost seems like it is peeling off? Im not sure if that makes sense but thats my novice description of my observation

I have been thinking of adding a carbon bag as something that could help but what could it be? what can I test for?

Ha, no I meant was the 1.012 a typo. I was incredulous! No store should be selling fish in hyposalinity like that unless they ensure the receiving tank is also. You cannot acclimate fish up to full salinity like that in a few hours - I take four days in 8 rises to go from 1.012 to 1.025.
Whether fish die from this level of osmotic shock varies; smaller fish are more sensitive, fish with kidney issues have more problems, it varies by species as well as how long the fish was held in the hyposalinity.
Jay

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Yes, Typo, it is Canary

Between 1.012 and 1.014....they have all come in that low....what would be the symptoms of them acclimating too quickly?

"indicates a gill parasite in the fish. The most common one is velvet, Amyloodinium." How fast could that kill a fish?...the "Canary" fish had been at the LFS for months and shortly after they were acclimating with my tank water symptomology was showing and within 6hrs of entering my home they were dead.

* I guess one symptomology i should bring up is that their slime coat almost seems like it is peeling off? Im not sure if that makes sense but thats my novice description of my observation

I have been thinking of adding a carbon bag as something that could help but what could it be? what can I test for?

Sorry - just to clarify, the earlier fish deaths were likely due to gill disease, but the two clowns dying within hours of arrival was most certainly osmotic shock.
Jay

 

[AKreuzer]

Ha, no I meant was the 1.012 a typo. I was incredulous! No store should be selling fish in hyposalinity like that unless they ensure the receiving tank is also. You cannot acclimate fish up to full salinity like that in a few hours - I take four days in 8 rises to go from 1.012 to 1.025.
Whether fish die from this level of osmotic shock varies; smaller fish are more sensitive, fish with kidney issues have more problems, it varies by species as well as how long the fish was held in the hyposalinity.
Jay

For my own edification, do you keep the salinity of your QT at the lower salinity and then increase through water changes?

I guess for what I know theres a QT process and an acclimation process? are you doing those seperate? or is there a way to do them together?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

For my own edification, do you keep the salinity of your QT at the lower salinity and then increase through water changes?

I guess for what I know theres a QT process and an acclimation process? are you doing those seperate? or is there a way to do them together?

Yes, quarantine is separate from acclimation, but the latter term has different definitions - we are talking about acclimating to different water conditions, you also can need to acclimate fish to new foods, new tankmates, etc.
Jay

 

[AKreuzer]

An update to precede the update....I think my plan is.
1) ICP water analysis...for the full 44pt report it'll cost me $13....at this point what's $13?!
2) depending on those results I'll do 125% water change (I only have the ability to do ~50g at a time....I figure change 50g every 6 days should dilute/refresh all things
3) add a power head...increase circulation and maybe draw out any gasses that might be trapped in the substrate, reduce dead spots and improve gas exchange

Thoughts suggestions on that plan?