My Results: Carbon Dosing with Brightwell Bio Fuel vs TM Reef Actif vs and Vinegar

[spicymikey]

I have a trace element dosing method in place now that works. Its based on trial and error and confirmation with 8 months of monthly ICP testing. With that solved I started reducing water change from 20% to 5% weekly. As I suspected, NO3 started rising. Reached 40ppm in a few weeks. I had to increase water changes again to hold it at that level while I tried to solve this nutrient uptake issue.

No question carbon dosing seems to be the answer to controlling high NO3 problems. There was no need to try to reinvent that wheel. Also, looked like white vinegar (5% Acetic acid) seemed to be the most popular solution. But with a PH of 2.4ish, and me struggling to keep my PH in the 8.3 range, I wanted to try some other things first.

I've seen other products advertised to control nutrients. I've also seen them talked about by reefers. So, I decided to try a couple out to get my 40ppm NO3 down. Here's my personal experience after a few months. Hope its helpful.

Brightwell Bio Fuel -
For my 400gal system it recommends dosing 40ml per day. I bought a gal and used it for a month. Ramped up to the 40ml dose in a week and stayed there for 3 weeks. It helped move the needle a bit but NO3 was surprisingly still hovering between 35-40ppm. I raised it to 80ml/day and added it to a slow drip doser for another month. Used up the rest of the gallon quickly even though the instructions said adding more wouldn't help. Well, it did help a bit but still not enough to balance my nutrients. Still above 30ppm I suppose I could have added even more, but at $100/gal it seemed foolish. Conclusion on Bio-Fuel: whatever is in the "proprietary solution" it is not enough carbon for the money.

Tropic Marin Reef Actif -
This is a dried powder that you hydrate in a flask and then dump into the tank daily. Its easy enough to use, but it doesn't seem to fully dissolve so not sure if this is a candidate for premixing and adding to a doser. I didn't try. Regardless, it didn't seem to have much of an effect on the Nitrates. Maybe I needed to use it for longer. I tried using a bit more than recommended and I went through the small container in about 3 weeks. Conclusion on Reef Actif: maybe it helps feed bacteria and helps coral health, but it did not do enough to solve my nutrient issue. It certainly was not cost justified.

White Vinegar (5% Acetic Acid) -
For 400gal system I decided to start with 20ml daily. I'm inpatient so I ramped up much faster than recommended on the web but watched for issues. Had bacteria blooms first two days soon after morning dosing but that stopped. I ramped up to 200ml in two weeks and continued for another two weeks at 200ml per day. PH took a hit for a couple hours after dosing but it was manageable. PH dropped from 8.1 in the am to around 7.9-8.0 but recovered in a couple hours. Good news is the NO3 was completely under control within 2 weeks (and even Phosphates seemed to be effected). Conclusion on Vinegar: It worked cost effectively.

Needless to say the testing showed a clear solution going forward. At $3/gal it cost me around 15 cents a day to dose with Vinegar and, more importantly, it worked well and quickly. A bit of a PH effect to mange but not a problem since my PC is not normally too low. I put it on a doser now to make that less of an issue. Used carefully the vinegar did not stress my corals and it was the most effective in solving the problem . The other two products might be gentler and safer to use (so they say) but they didn't work as well and certainly didn't prove to be worth the money.

Hope my experience is useful to others and can aid as a starting point for your own experiments.

 

[Reef_Curiosity]

Well you used Reef Actif wrong then. It's not a fair comparison. It's not designed to lower nutrients, in fact it can be dosed REGARDLESS of nutrient levels. It's not advertised as a nutrient reducer, it's a microbial and coral holobiont food.

To lower your NO3 with Tropic Marin you dose either Elimi-NP, NP-Bacto-Balance or Plus-NP depending on your PO4 level, so you don't bottom it out.

 

[spicymikey]

Well you used Reef Actif wrong then. It's not a fair comparison. It's not designed to lower nutrients, in fact it can be dosed REGARDLESS of nutrient levels. It's not advertised as a nutrient reducer, it's a microbial and coral holobiont food.

To lower your NO3 with Tropic Marin you dose either Elimi-NP, NP-Bacto-Balance or Plus-NP depending on your PO4 level, so you don't bottom it out.

Actually it IS advertised that way. That's why I tried it. But I can tell everyone it did not reduce nutrients effectively. Here are several of the key benefits they list on the product page:

• serves in double function as an absorber and valuable bacterial food in the aquarium
• binds nutrients and leads them to utilization by bacteria and other living beings
• promotes the reduction of water pollution by binding water-polluting substances
• slow degradation of excess nutrients without oxygen consumption in the aquarium

Reef-Actif | Produktinformationen

www.tropic-marin-smartinfo.com

But like you said, its not a fair comparison. From my experience its not really a method to boost the growth of organoheterotrophic bacteria, and help improve the C:N: P ratio. It might work for something, but not that.

As far as their other products; Elimi-NP and NP-Bacto-Balance, it sounded too much like smoke and mirrors. Have you used it? Maybe I'll test it next..

 

[Spare time]

I wonder if reef actif is more mild in some way because I believe tropic marin has stated that it can be used without a skimmer (unlike their other carbon dosing products).

 

[spicymikey]

I wonder if reef actif is more mild in some way because I believe tropic marin has stated that it can be used without a skimmer (unlike their other carbon dosing products).

Not sure. Of course, like so many companies, they use all these impressive words but really tell us very little about what the product actually is. Thats why its useful for us to share results of our own experiences. Some stuff is great, some is overhyped, and some is pure snake oil and a waste of money.

 

[JGT]

just add some kalkwasser to your vinegar to the point of supersaturation and the ph issues are gone.

 

[spicymikey]

just add some kalkwasser to your vinegar to the point of supersaturation and the ph issues are gone.

That's a good suggestion for some. Might actually work. Won't work for me. First of all you can't control the calcium level that way. Because your dosing based on maintaining the pH of the solution rather than the needs of the aquarium. But also, I have a large 10000 ml dosing tank which contains Calcium Chloride as well as Tropic Marin k+ Trace element mix. And that's all dosed through an apex based on the calcium readings from the trident. If I were to do both I would drive my dkh through the roof

 

[GARRIGA]

NoPox is a combination of vinegar and vodka which doesn't affect PH. At least not in my experience. There's a recipe on YouTube to create your own. Since you have half the equation then adding vodka in place of Kalk might be an option.

 

[JGT]

My understanding is the KW just neutralizes the vinegar, so no real uptick in dKh. And the amount required to suprsaturate the vinegar has no real impact on Ca. @Randy Holmes-Farley can chime in as he has personally done it.

 

[Reef_Curiosity]

Actually it IS advertised that way. That's why I tried it. But I can tell everyone it did not reduce nutrients effectively. Here are several of the key benefits they list on the product page:

• serves in double function as an absorber and valuable bacterial food in the aquarium
• binds nutrients and leads them to utilization by bacteria and other living beings
• promotes the reduction of water pollution by binding water-polluting substances
• slow degradation of excess nutrients without oxygen consumption in the aquarium

Reef-Actif | Produktinformationen

www.tropic-marin-smartinfo.com

But like you said, its not a fair comparison. From my experience its not really a method to boost the growth of organoheterotrophic bacteria, and help improve the C:N: P ratio. It might work for something, but not that.

As far as their other products; Elimi-NP and NP-Bacto-Balance, it sounded too much like smoke and mirrors. Have you used it? Maybe I'll test it next..

I'd say those key points advertise it as a microbial food that cleans the aquarium. It's even listed under their "bacteria" category, and not "nutrient control" category.

Yes, I use all of the TM carbon dosing products. I think it's wonderful to be able to control nutrients that effectively, and not risk hitting 0.00 PO4, which can be a nightmare. I'll never use anything else.
I really think you should try it properly.
kind regards

 

[Reef_Curiosity]

I wonder if reef actif is more mild in some way because I believe tropic marin has stated that it can be used without a skimmer (unlike their other carbon dosing products).

Reef Actif is very mild yes, it's designed to grow a healthy microbial environment, not to remove NO3 and PO4. It can be dosed regardless of their values. It's a cool product, and I always see healthier corals the days after dosing Reef Actif.

All of the products can be used without a skimmer, but for actual elevated nutrient reduction, a skimmer is recommended to remove the bacteria, which will cause the quickest and most reliable carbon based reduction of N and P.

 

[spicymikey]

I'd say those key points advertise it as a microbial food that cleans the aquarium. It's even listed under their "bacteria" category, and not "nutrient control" category.

Yes, I use all of the TM carbon dosing products. I think it's wonderful to be able to control nutrients that effectively, and not risk hitting 0.00 PO4, which can be a nightmare. I'll never use anything else.
I really think you should

I'd say those key points advertise it as a microbial food that cleans the aquarium. It's even listed under their "bacteria" category, and not "nutrient control" category.

Yes, I use all of the TM carbon dosing products. I think it's wonderful to be able to control nutrients that effectively, and not risk hitting 0.00 PO4, which can be a nightmare. I'll never use anything else.
I really think you should try it properly.
kind regards

I used the reef actif as described on the label with a skimmer. What do you mean by "try it properly"? Do you have some other methods of using it?

From my testing nothing worked nearly as well, or inexpensively, as good old white vinegar. That's just what I found and was trying to share it.

I agree with you this is not a product that you want use for nutrient reduction. But they're is no question they are hyping this product as being a nutrient reducer. I doubt anyone reading those bullet points would not come away with the same conclusion.

But we're getting off track. I'm not here to put down Tropic Marin. I use a lot of their product including their salt, Trace elements,balling method, etc. They make quality products.

 

[Reef_Curiosity]

I used the reef actif as described on the label with a skimmer. What do you mean by "try it properly"? Do you have some other methods of using it?

From my testing nothing worked nearly as well, or inexpensively, as good old white vinegar. That's just what I found and was trying to share it.

I agree with you this is not a product that you want use for nutrient reduction. But they're is no question they are hyping this product as being a nutrient reducer. I doubt anyone reading those bullet points would not come away with the same conclusion.

But we're getting off track. I'm not here to put down Tropic Marin. I use a lot of their product including their salt, Trace elements,balling method, etc. They make quality products.

What I mean with try properly, is the actual TM carbon dosing, for nutrient control, regime.
If PO4 is:
<0.03 use Plus NP
0.03-0.1 use NP Bacto Balance
0.1< use Elimi NP

Target PO4: 0.03-0.1

I just wanted to clarify this, since your original post compares using Reef Actif to vinegar dosing or using an agressive carbon dosing product like Reef BioFuel. The comparable TM product is Elimi NP.

 

[spicymikey]

What I mean with try properly, is the actual TM carbon dosing, for nutrient control, regime.
If PO4 is:
<0.03 use Plus NP
0.03-0.1 use NP Bacto Balance
0.1< use Elimi NP

Target PO4: 0.03-0.1

I just wanted to clarify this, since your original post compares using Reef Actif to vinegar dosing or using an agressive carbon dosing product like Reef BioFuel. The comparable TM product is Elimi NP.

Okay, I understand now. Yes I am definitely going to do some experiments with their bacto-balance now that I have my nutrients under control using the vinegar. I'd like to see if I can do the same thing in a relatively cost-effective way. I'm sure I could have accomplished that with the Brightwell biofuel as well, but it would just have been ridiculously expensive. Thanks for the suggestion

 

[spicymikey]

What I mean with try properly, is the actual TM carbon dosing, for nutrient control, regime.
If PO4 is:
<0.03 use Plus NP
0.03-0.1 use NP Bacto Balance
0.1< use Elimi NP

Target PO4: 0.03-0.1

I just wanted to clarify this, since your original post compares using Reef Actif to vinegar dosing or using an agressive carbon dosing product like Reef BioFuel. The comparable TM product is Elimi NP.

Looks like Elimi-NP ingredient is "Polyalchol". That basically means sugar, which we know indeed is a good source of carbon and table sugar is often used as another method of carbon dosing. I'm sure it will work. But the problem with sucrose (table sugar) is it gets talked about on the web as more prone to cause issues for reef aquariums than Acetic acid (White Vinegar) or Ethanol (straight Vodka).

If we use the recommended dose of Elimi-NP I calculate that the cost, for me, of using this product would be about $15/mth vs about $5/month for grocery store white vinegar). Thats assuming they aren't lowballing the needed dosing like Brightwell was doing for their BioFuel. That ended up costing about $50/mth and it still didn't fully solve the nitrate problems like $5/mth of vinegar did.

So before I buy some Elimi-NP to experiment replacing the vinegar dosing, I'd be interested in knowing the PH of Elimi-NP when hydrated to the correct concentration? Since you use this product, would you mind testing and sharing that?. If its going to cost 3 times as much (at least) to manage my nutrients, it would need to have a more neutral PH to solve the other main issue of using Acetic Acid. Thanks

 

[Hans-Werner]

Looks like Elimi-NP ingredient is "Polyalchol". That basically means sugar, which we know indeed is a good source of carbon and table sugar is often used as another method of carbon dosing.

This is not totally correct. Sugars are no polyalcohols as you can find out easily by following the links.

But the problem with sucrose (table sugar) is it gets talked about on the web as more prone to cause issues for reef aquariums than Acetic acid (White Vinegar) or Ethanol (straight Vodka).

Yes, I agree, this is one of the main reasons we have chosen a polyalcohol and not sugar. If sugar would have worked better in our tests maybe we would have chosen sugar but it didn't.

So before I buy some Elimi-NP to experiment replacing the vinegar dosing, I'd be interested in knowing the PH of Elimi-NP when hydrated to the correct concentration?

I have taken a look into the chemical literature. A 17 % solution of Elimi-NP would have a pH of 5, a 5 % solution of acetic acid has a pH of 2.5. At the recommended dosage of 0.1 to 0.5 ml per 100 l (= 1 to 5 ppm) of course you will not see any pH change.

 

[spicymikey]

This is not totally correct. Sugars are no polyalcohols as you can find out easily by following the links.

Yes, I agree, this is one of the main reasons we have chosen a polyalcohol and not sugar. If sugar would have worked better in our tests maybe we would have chosen sugar but it didn't.

I have taken a look into the chemical literature. A 17 % solution of Elimi-NP would have a pH of 5, a 5 % solution of acetic acid has a pH of 2.5. At the recommended dosage of 0.1 to 0.5 ml per 100 l (= 1 to 5 ppm) of course you will not see any pH change.

Thanks for sharing some info Hans. I went to the TM website but its too vague to draw conclusions. I admit I was making some assumptions. I'm also not a chemist like some on here (@Randy Holmes-Farley) but it seemed Polyalcohol's were also known as sugar alcohols, and I was assuming that must be the secret sauce in your Elimi-NP and was being liberal with the word sugar. Not expecting confirmation or denial, but I appreciate sharing the PH of a solution of Elimi-NP. Based on the posts from @Reef_Curiosity , I am definitely going to experiment with these TM products next. Having a much higher PH than Acetic Acid, is a big advantage, especially if the carbon density is greater than Vinegar (5% acetic acid). Its another one of its negatives even though it so far is still the most cost effective. I'll share what I find here when I get some results

 

[Hans-Werner]

but it seemed Polyalcohol's were also known as sugar alcohols

Well noticed! I guess they are called sugar alcohols because of their sweet taste. I personally hadn't any knowledge of the naming "Zuckeralkohole" before using one.

Sugar alcohols do not contribute to tooth decay which shows they have quite a different effect to bacteria compared to sugar.

 

[spicymikey]

Well noticed! I guess they are called sugar alcohols because of their sweet taste. I personally hadn't any knowledge of the naming "Zuckeralkohole" before using one.

Sugar alcohols do not contribute to tooth decay which shows they have quite a different effect to bacteria compared to sugar.

I admit I am above my pay grade here when it comes to the chemistry. I have a degree in Computer Science & Mathematics and haven't read a chemistry book since H.S. So the best thing i can do is perform experiments and note the results. I have Elimi-NP on order from BRS. Its not an easy product to find by the way. I want to see how effective it is at controlling nutrients AND at what cost.

I also ordered 75% Acetic Acid off Amazon. Not sure what the PH of 75% Acetic acid will be. It might be getting into more corrosive levels. So I will be careful handling it before diluting it. That would solve the issue of the large volumes of Vinegar needed (200ml per day) because its 95% H2O

I'll post results .

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I admit I am above my pay grade here when it comes to the chemistry. I have a degree in Computer Science & Mathematics and haven't read a chemistry book since H.S. So the best thing i can do is perform experiments and note the results. I have Elimi-NP on order from BRS. Its not an easy product to find by the way. I want to see how effective it is at controlling nutrients AND at what cost.

I also ordered 75% Acetic Acid off Amazon. Not sure what the PH of 75% Acetic acid will be. It might be getting into more corrosive levels. So I will be careful handling it before diluting it. That would solve the issue of the large volumes of Vinegar needed (200ml per day) because its 95% H2O

I'll post results .

That may be more expensive than grocery store vinegar where a gallon bottle will last you 19 days. I dosed right from the bottle.