The purpose of this thread is to explain my experience with reef kinetics, with the machine, and the type of results I received. For those who like to skip to the end and see the results, let me give you the cliff notes.
Do I think the Reef Kinetics team/Hady is trying his best? Yes, but unfortunately, it's not there yet.
Do I think this equipment warrants a $1300 price tag? no - after seeing it in action, I wouldn't pay more than $600-$800 for it when there are other options with a better success rate. My guess is that this machine costs around $300-$400 to make after seeing everything inside it.
Do I think it is ready to be considered "production" worthy equipment? no, this product should still be in beta and allowing the community of those willing to mess with it to improve the product.
Would I recommend it to anyone? If you like tinkering with things and spending a decent amount of time weekly getting it to work. It's right up your alley. If you want something to "work," especially with a $1300 price tag, I don't think this is for you, and you should look into other options.
But let's get into it.
October 5 2023 - I purchase my Reef bot. I replied to my order email asking when the product would ship out. The next day, Hady replied just saying, "Welcome to the family," and completely ignored my question. It's not a huge deal, but it's a bit annoying. A couple of hours later, I replied back again, asking if they had an idea of when it would ship. Hady Replied back, saying, "Hopefully, shipping will start by end of this month."
November 2 2023 - I sent another email asking, "Any timeline on when the Reefbot will ship out?" Hady replied back that day and said "Hi Jonathan, We hope all is well. Devices should start shipping this month, we will begin to send ETA soon. Have a great day,". I replied "Thanks! looking forward to playing and testing the device."
December 11 2023 - I sent another email asking "When will shipping start?". I received an email saying "Hi Jonathan, We hope all is well. Based on our current timeline, you can expect your device in the upcoming 7-10 days. We will send a tracking number once the device is shipped. Have a great week!". I replied "Thank you for the update."
December 22 2023 - I replied "Hossaily, at this point if the device isn’t going to ship out in the next coming days, I would like a refund to go with another product. First, I was told a month; and note this was prior to me even placing my order, then I place my order on 10/5 and was told end of the month, then the end of November. then the first week of December. then it was 7-10 days, it's been almost 3 months since I placed my order. I have way too many tanks to continue manual testing and need a solution sooner than later. At this point if it doesn’t ship next week, I would like to cancel my order so I can go with another product. Sorry, hopefully you understand". Then Hady replied "Good morning Jonathan, Apologies for all the delays. However, I was informed that your device was shipped earlier this week. I'll check the tracking number once the shipping company opens today. Have a great weekend,"
December 27th 2023 - Device Arrives - A couple of broken side pieces is the only thing I noticed immediately.
December 28th 2023 - I send an email saying "Hady,This machine is quite frustrating. No matter how many times I run a needle alignment, it does not get it correctly. Now I'm completely out of needles for a $1,200.00 product that can't perform a basic function out of the box. Secondly, no offense, but your documentation is absolutely and ridiculously a joke. There is nothing to find online for the Reefbot Lab, I had to find the previous version and look at that manual to see what the LED colors were. Secondly I thought your youtube would have some videos but its quite sad. Sorry for the blunt truth but this machine at best should still be in beta and not in production. The app is extremely confusing and you can't find a single thing online for it."
--- Yes I was a bit frustrated at this point after tinkering with the machine for 6 hours and trying to get it to work. Here is the picture I attached to the email.
Unfortunately, all that came in the box was a QR code that takes you to this video. . There is no manual. No instructions. No Guide on there website at the time I received it either. I was curious what the LED light colors meant and had to guess they meant the same thing as the original Reefbot since that was the only documentation I could find. In my opinion, the app is not easy to use out of the box, once you understand how it functions and works, you ultimately get the hang of it, but it took me a day or so to understand where to find everything and how it works finally. Each Vial has a number, and there are reagents that you assign to each numbered vial, but there are also tests that you can assign to a vial, and that's where it started to get confusing. - Just be ready to have questions about navigating the app. I wish they would have had a small manual that explained the app, or even a quick 5-minute video would have cleared so many questions up immediately.
December 28 2023- Hady replied "Good morning Jonathan, I hope all is well. I am very sorry to hear about this. I believe that the alignment has been changed due to shipping and that it is no longer corrected by the needle alignment test. I can modify this from my end if you can tell me where the needle is located; does it need to move a bit to the left or the right? Additionally, it might need to be aligned by just fixing a bolt that might have come loose during shipping. As for needles, I will send you 20 needles asap. If you are available today, ping me and we can open a call to fix this issue right away.
--- Let me give you a bit of background. I work in the IT sector. One thing I immediately noticed & questioned is How he could make a change to the Reefbot remotely, without me or my permission, by the sound of his reply. I know the device is Cloud-based, but does that mean they can see into my network? I was told the Reefbot basically runs off a Raspberry Pi and I've worked closely with these before. We actually used to use them as a "Tunneling" device into a customer network. We would plug one into each customer site, and then we would have 100% access to the network to help troubleshoot issues such as printers, laptops, etc. I should have gone deeper into this, but unfortunately, I didn't press the issue. It's just something that stood out.
Back to the story, I replied back saying "I'm available now. Sorry for the email. I'm just steaming hot red right now with thing after spending 6+ hours on it."
He then sent me Google Meet instructions and we immediately jumped on a support call, joined via my phone, put it on a tripod so he could see what I was doing close up, and joined the meeting on my computer to use as the mic. We quickly learned the device was broken. The middle shaft is 3D printed. The top, the supports going down, and the baseplate are metal; everything inside is practically 3D printed.
The first thing on the Google Meet Hady mentions is that I had my vials going sideways instead of long ways. The reason I had them this way is because they stick out past the machine, and you can't really put the panels back on. Picture below.
After running a test so he could see where the needle was landing, we found that every time, it was landing in a different spot. Originally he had me undo some bolts for the center shaft to see if it was unaligned and re-tighten them but then we found out that the center shaft was, in fact, broken. Hady asked if it was possible to glue it back together; I said sure, I think I can handle that. The Picture below after gluing it together.
After gluing it together, the needle would land into the vials properly. This was about an hour or two into the call. Unfortunately, the glue would only hold for a few days, if not hours. When looking at the 3D print, you can tell the wall was not very thick and had a good amount of spacing. I guess it's done that way to make the prints faster and save on material but it also makes a weak print. With a small hanging piece, I squeezed it to see how sturdy it was, and it wasn't very strong. I asked Hady why it's 3D printed and his answer was "to keep costs low.". During that same call I mentioned that I had a pretty large 3D printer and could reprint the entire shaft if they sent the files over. He said that could be done. Remember this because it will be important for later. It was now 4-5AM Eastern time and I was tired so called it a day while I left it running some tests.
December 29 2023 - The next morning he replies. "Hello Jonathan, I reviewed your result and everything looks good. The only issue is with the endpoint collected, I would recommend either shaking the vial of redsea alkalinity and trying again, also ensuring that it contains a stirrer magnet inside and inside the testing chamber, or running the redsea alkalinity high-resolution test instead of the normal one you ran; it is the same reagents, just choose the high-resolution option from the tests tab"
I'm not sure what he called good since I was receiving results that "couldn't be read" according to the reefbot and some had completely different colors than expected. I reset the config and reconfigured it even though I double checked everything and it was a match to what I put into the app.
I replied with the following email "Hady, Couple of questions.
His reply: Hello Jonathan, I hope you're doing well.
1. Yes, you can later calibrate the test and RO chambers to 10ml, ensuring the pumps are familiar with the new silicone tube lengths.
Check the video on how to calibrate: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jWtq9j9vKxg
2. The problem is that the entire batch has sold out, and pre-orders for the March batch have already begun. If any canceled orders become available, we can ship you a replacement or, if acceptable, a partial refund.
3. After reviewing your results, it appears there might be a setup issue. For instance:
- The API nitrate test should display shades of yellow-orange-red, but it's showing a shade of blue. This could be due to incorrect reagent assignments between the slots and the mobile app.
Example of correct results:
- The phosphate test is showing shades of greyish-brown instead of blue, indicating a potential reagent issue. Try shaking the reagents thoroughly before retrying the test. Also, ensure proper assignment of vials and stirrer magnets in the test chamber.
- Redsea alkalinity test seems to exhibit an endpoint directly (yellow color) instead of starting blue and ending yellow. Similar to the phosphate test, try shaking the reagent and ensure the presence of stirrer magnets in all vials and two small stirrer magnets in the testing chamber.
4. Yes, your approach should work, but note that it might be necessary to discard the reagents after a few days as it is unlikely that you will use the whole 60mls before this mixture becomes unstable. You may want to consider using API or Reef Factory Calcium tests instead of Redsea once the current test ends.
5. Regarding RedSea Iron, it isn't compatible with the ReefBot Lab. Did you mean RedSea iodine? If so, the RedSea iodine powder is solely for preparing the standard solution and isn't required during testing. For Iron, you can utilize JBL, which contains only one liquid reagent.
January 1 2024 - I replied
1. I understand, but what about the salt water thats in the line? eventually it will go back especially if the line is pretty long. So is there a way to tell the machine to basically discharge the first 100ml of salt water prior to taking a sample? That way its pulling a fresh sample of water every time?
2. So, I’m requesting either a partial refund or that I get added to the list for the next set of shipments. If the refund is inadequate or small, then I will just take the replacement device. I understand your already taking pre-orders for the next batch, but shouldn’t you worry about making sure the original buyers are taken care of first? Like I said before, I don’t mind figuring out how to disassemble the reefbot and replace just the broken part but If I’m spending any more time on making this $1,300 piece of equipment work, then I would like a significant refund. Otherwise, I just want what I originally ordered and paid for, a working machine.
Again, sorry to sound like a pest but I gave you a perfect example of this situation before. If you go buy a new Mercedes Benz brand at the dealership; and I compare the reefbot to a Mercedes because it’s advertised as the Benz of automation testing. If you go buy a brand-new Benz and a week later the engine blows up, you're going to go ask for a replacement car. Now sure, you might be a mechanic and be able to fix it yourself, but you wouldn’t pay retail for the car and fix it yourself for free, sorry but business just doesn’t work that way. You would probably tell the dealership to just give you a new one or cut you one heck of a deal on that car and you can do the work yourself. Now, If I was the dealership I would sell the car for what it costs me, possibly even less just to clean my hands of it, but that's just me.
3. Every Bottle is labeled and I labeled them as I put the reagent in. Here is how I have it setup. Picture Attached as well.
5. Yes, My Apologies. I do have the red sea Iodine Tests in slots 11-12 but accidentally said Iron. The Red Sea Iodine tests come with a powder, What am I supposed to do with that? I couldn’t find any documentation online.
--- This is the entire reason I asked for a partial refund. Reprinting the parts, tearing this machine apart and then re-assembling it together would easily take at least 6 hours. at least, that's if you don't run into printing issues and everything else. That's why I asked for a partial refund, or a new working machine.
January 2 2024 - Hady replied "Hello Jonathan, Happy New Year! I hope this year brings joy and prosperity to you and your family.
1. No worries, the device is designed to automatically discharge all the water in the tubes and flush them before initiating each test. It's part of the standard functionality in every test cycle.
2. No apologies necessary. We completely understand your concerns. We do not prefer sending individual devices due to the potential risks during transit. After discussing with our management team, we propose a partial refund of $300, which is our standard resolution in similar cases. This amount is equivalent to what we'd typically incur in expenses to send an individual device via shipping, minus the potential risk. We value your feedback on this proposal.
Regarding the preorders for the next batch, we've decided to merge the upcoming batch with the current one due to the high volume of orders. This will ensure a continuous production cycle. Please rest assured, that your device comes with a full one-year warranty, so there's no need for concern in that regard.
3. Regarding the Redsea Iodine powder solution, it's worth noting that it's solely used for manually creating a standard solution and isn't required for testing purposes with the device.
Feel free to reach out if you have further questions or need assistance.
--- Here is when I started to get a bit annoyed. They basically offered me a refund worth their shipping costs. I was already 30+ hours into this machine and all they would offer is their shipping costs? I also own a business, and if it was me, I would have offered it at a cost to at least try to make the customer happy, not what it costs in shipping to ensure we still make a profit from selling the machine. Again, after looking at the machine, I guess that it can't cost more than $300-$400 to make. There's just no way. I would even go as far as saying that if you had a good overseas source, which I guess that they do since it ships from Lebanon, it would cost around the $200 mark when buying quantity.
January 6 2024 - I replied "Hady, I will respond to this email tomorrow but right now I have another question. Why is it that when the machine fills my clear vial with RO water, it overflows? I tried the RO chamber calibration, but it asks for a measurement at the end and but there is no way to measure that vial. it simply just continues to overflow about 5-6 ml of water onto the magnet stirrer. how is the RO calibration supposed to work?"
--- at this point, when running tests, I noticed a small leak. I actually ran a test, stood there with a syringe, and pulled back 9ml of water. So, my thought was to run a calibration and somehow tell the machine to use 9ml less. Unfortunately, when you run a calibration, your value can't exceed 12. My value was 21 but I couldn't enter it into the system. Anything over 12, and it doesn't let you save. Even when I put 12ml into the calibration, nothing changed. It still leaked. Pictures below.
A couple minutes after cleaning the water, I noticed another leak. Originally I didn't notice it because I had towel right under it and it never caught my attention. The inlet filter would leak. So I then send the following email back a couple of minutes later. "This thing also drips every so often, i tried to tighten it as much as possible but still leaks" - picture below.
January 8 2024 - I sent an email saying "It actually overflows exactly 9 ml. I sat there with a syringe sucking out water as it filled so it wouldn't overflow. My syringe had exactly 9ml. So if I can dial it back from inserting an extra 9ml. it should stop my leakage problem." and Hady replied with "Hello Jonathan, I hope all is well. Regarding the RO overflow, when you calibrate the chamber, put 11ml in case of overflow, no need to measure. But it is strange why this is happening, did you elongate the RO tube by a lot? As for the leakage, it might not be the filter, there might be a tear in the tube, did you check this? Alternatively, you can use any other filter in case it is broken or leaking or remove it if your salinity is not too high. Let me know how it goes. Best regards,"
--- The only tubes I extended were my RO & waste lines. I extended my waste line by approximately 10 feet so that it would pour into my sink. Then I stuck a 1/4 line into my RO vat and ran it 15 to the Reefbot. The reef bot comes with silicone lines so I kept their original length and did the following:
January 12 2024 - I sent an email saying the following: "Hady,
The capabilities of This machine are nowhere near what is actually advertised. All the tests that did run are completely off. During the time I had the machine, I sent out 2 ICP tests and did a manual test NIGHTLY to compare. There's a big difference, and it was always off. I'm talking 10%, if not more.
Nitrate continues to read 0 when my manual ATI tests continue to show 20-40; when I sent out an ICP test, it came back at 29 with a 2-point window. I haven't had a test on the reef lab that gave me similar results.
Alkalinity continues to come back at the 9-9.5 mark on the reef lab when it's truly around the 8-8.2 range.
Phosphate continues to read either 0 or 0.02 for every test when my phosphates are really .09-.12 ppm. Again, I am not sure what measurement you are using because there is no labeling or measurement that can be found.
Iodine continued to read 0.03 (in what? ppm, mg/l, ug/l? - I'm unsure because the reef lab does not specify) when it's truly around 15 ug/l. Even if you were measuring in mg/l, that's 0.015, which is still totally off. 0.03 should be around 30ug/l, but it's not even close.
I've kept the magnesium at 1300, but the tests vary between 1400 and 1440 every single time. ATI & Hannah testers come within that 1% window of each other but the reef lab is completely out of that window.
Basically, this machine is just shooting random, useless numbers. Now, that's the testing aspect of it.
Let's get to the hardware of it.
The machine arrived broken; the middle shaft was completely dislocated and snapped from the upper piece. Two of the panels came with a crack. The Machine leaks RO when doing a test, about 9ml of water every time, and according to your team, there is no true fix. I input the numbers you said but it makes no difference at all. When trying to put on the acrylic side panels, they bend out because the 60ml bottles are too big and poke out of the chassis about 1/8-1/4".
I'm sorry it didn't work out. I wish Reef Kinetics the best of luck with their development of this product but at this point, I don't believe it warrants a $1300 price tag when the data is practically useless. Maybe in the future, I would consider rebuying once you further the product's development, but at this point, I would just like a refund.
Please send a shipping label so that I can ship the machine back to your facilities at your earliest convenience."
--- I was somewhat disappointed in the product at this point and by this point I was 40+ hours into this machine and was not happy that after paying $1300, I couldn't get it to work properly.
January 12 2024 - Hady Replies "Hello Jonathan, I hope everything is going well.
I'm sorry to hear about the issues you've experienced with our device. While I understand that the broken part may have left a negative impression, the other issues you mentioned have been resolved and cleared with all users who faced similar incidents in the past.
I'll send you a full report on the device's functionality so you can gain a better understanding of it. Please note that the device's accuracy is based on the accuracy of the test kit used. Therefore, it's not possible to compare the results of different test kits with the results of the device.
Concerning the alkalinity test, I checked your values and found that the results are consistent with the color charts. This means that the test is being carried out correctly, and any inaccurate results may be due to an issue with the water intake. Are you comparing the Redsea KH test used on the Reefbot with another test? (solution mentioned below)
Regarding phosphate, there may be a mutual cause between it and alkalinity. Both redsea alkalinity and redsea phosphate tests use a 10ml water sample, and if the dosing syringe is defective or filled with air instead of water, the results may be inaccurate.
With respect to iodine, I'll forward your concern to our team for investigation. I wasn't aware that the results were not displayed in ppm. I checked your last result and it gave a result of 0.1 ppm. Is this the correct value?
As for nitrate, I understand the frustration you're experiencing. We're constantly updating this test, and we recommend the Tropic Marin Nitrate instead. Additionally, we suggest scheduling the automatic API Nitrate stirring test twice a day to keep the thick reagent in the nitrate vial mixed and stirred to prevent the powder from sticking to the bottom of the vial, which prevents it from going into the syringe and hence results in the 0 value shown.
I strongly recommend that you check and calibrate your testing chamber to 10ml and try again, in addition to checking just for the first 5 mins of the test if the bigger syringe is filling with air bubbles instead of taking the correct amount of sample water required. I'm confident that you'll have a much better experience once this is done, and you'll receive the expected outcome.
Finally, could you please provide more information on the RO leakage issue? Please note that no issue is unsolvable, and we'll do our best to fix it, even if it's remotely.
Looking forward to your reply.
-- My alkalinity test might have been consistent, but they were nowhere near what the manual Red Sea test would give, what my Hannah checker gives, and especially what an ICP test gave me. I also checked my tests against my Trident and it was about 1Dkh off everytime. I never received one test that actually matched any of my other 4 sources or was anywhere near. I had just told him what my Iodine levels were from my recent ICP tests but yet he asked me again what they were.
There are the Here are my ICP results that were sampled January 1 at 11PM. - and yes, I know you can't really compare manual tests to an ICP test but the entire time my hannah checker and RedSea manual tests were right on the money within a decimal or two.
Phosphate ReefBot:
Phosohate Actual: - Hannah Checker & RedSea would also give me results within .01 of these tests.
Reef Bot Nitrate: My Nitrate tests would ALWAYS come back to 0
NItrate Actual Results:
Magnesium Reef Bot:
Magnesium Actual Results:
Iodine Reef Bot: - And unfortunately I can't tell you what measurement because it doesnt say if its ppm, mg/l, or ug/l and there is no documention so I have no idea.
Iodine Actual Results:
Anyway - I won't bore you with each test but you get the idea.
January 18 2024 - I replied to his email saying: "Hady,
0.01 PPM is no where near correct of the actual figure.
In regard to Nitrate, I did try 2 different set of bottles. I had bought three kits in total. Same results.
In regard to calibration, I couldn't put a # higher than 12, so I tried 10-12 but no difference.
In regard to your $300 refund offer. I don't think that's enough, That's why I originally requested a replacement instead. Unfortunately I think I'm past that replacement phase. I'm not going to continue to super glue this machine together to make it work & wait 2-3 more months. The machine is down right now because its completely useless. It cost $1300. I can take those $1300 and invest them into a much better product. Unless your prepared to offer a 50% refund, I just want to return the machine and get my money back."
January 19 2024 - Hady replied to my email but completely ignored the refund part. This is what he sent "Hello, No worries, API Nitrate is a global issue that we address and talk about a lot, this is why we recommend using Tropic Marin nitrate instead. As for the 0.01 ppm value you mentioned, I didn't find what you meant, if you mean the 0.1 ppm RedSea iodine result, the result was white, which in case the reagent is sufficient for the needle to carry, is the proper result for this color, this does not indicate an issue with the device functionality. I understand your frustration and how difficult it must be to feel disappointed after waiting for a long time but we are dedicated to assisting you address them all and getting the best outcome from your device. What I would recommend is using Tropic Marin Nitrate on the device, in addition, in case RedSea Iodine is not aligning with your values, this is a new test that we added, we can investigate if the issue is from our side if you provide us with more information about the issue. As for Calibration, please enter the value of 11 in the mobile app when it puts more than 10ml and it will take it."
January 24 2024 - I replied saying the following: "Hady, You continue to avoid my question entirely. Are you taking the unit back or providing a 50% refund?"
January 26 2024 - I replied "Still waiting for an answer."
January 27 2024 - At this point I hadn't received any communication back, I was already annoyed and felt like the refund talks were being avoided so I called my bank and filled for a charge back. Unfortunately he replied later that day and said "Hello Jonathan, I hope all is well. I am sorry to hear this. Of course, we are open for a 50% discount based on the difficulty you faced fixing the device. Best regards"
I then replied to him saying "Hady, At this point, I'm not interested. For a $1200 product, I shouldn't have to bond broken parts together with glue, I shouldn't have to try and fix the machine so that it works properly. It should just work. It's been nearly a week since my last email. I called the bank this morning to file a chargeback, so please send a return shipping label. I'm sure they will be contacting you as well. I've asked for this multiple times already, so let's put it behind us and just move past it. Send me the label at your earliest convenience so I can return the device. "
He then replied "No worries. Will send you the return label early next week."
Summary - So, in summary, I think at first Hady was super helpful, would answer questions I had, and even decided to jump on a Google Meet with me to help me, BUT that doesn't take away that I had 50+ hours into this product at this point and really couldn't get anything worthwhile from it. I personally don't think that the product is ready to be sold as a "production" unit quite yet. Do I think they could grow this product into something much better with the community? Yes, but they must allow people to get it at a much smaller price point with the upfront knowledge that you'll be tinkering & testing with it in order to improve the product. Unfortunately, I feel like they are 75-80% of the way there but need to bring in revenue to stay afloat and released a partially finished product. Unfortunately, I don't have time to tinker with it, nor do I want to for something that costs $1300. I just want it to work. That is why I think this product should still be in a beta testing phase instead of being marketed as a truly functional machine. I also think that they could release another option for the machine with much better quality parts for those who are willing to pay for it, but again, these are just my opinions and thoughts.
I wanted to be as open as possible and not seem biased or one-sided; that's why I posted the dates for an accurate timeline; at the end of the day, I gave it a chance, but it just wasn't for me. I wrote this post for people to make up their own minds and tried to be as open as possible so people can decide for themselves if this is something they want. I have nothing bad to say about Reef Kinetics besides the facts. Hady was very helpful, but we disagreed on a couple of points. Personally, I think the customer is always right; if you send a customer a broken product, why not fix it for them? Why continue to sell the product to others instead of helping those who already paid for it and didn't get what they ordered? Personally, That doesn't make sense to me.
Anyway, that's my story.
Do I think the Reef Kinetics team/Hady is trying his best? Yes, but unfortunately, it's not there yet.
Do I think this equipment warrants a $1300 price tag? no - after seeing it in action, I wouldn't pay more than $600-$800 for it when there are other options with a better success rate. My guess is that this machine costs around $300-$400 to make after seeing everything inside it.
Do I think it is ready to be considered "production" worthy equipment? no, this product should still be in beta and allowing the community of those willing to mess with it to improve the product.
Would I recommend it to anyone? If you like tinkering with things and spending a decent amount of time weekly getting it to work. It's right up your alley. If you want something to "work," especially with a $1300 price tag, I don't think this is for you, and you should look into other options.
But let's get into it.
October 5 2023 - I purchase my Reef bot. I replied to my order email asking when the product would ship out. The next day, Hady replied just saying, "Welcome to the family," and completely ignored my question. It's not a huge deal, but it's a bit annoying. A couple of hours later, I replied back again, asking if they had an idea of when it would ship. Hady Replied back, saying, "Hopefully, shipping will start by end of this month."
November 2 2023 - I sent another email asking, "Any timeline on when the Reefbot will ship out?" Hady replied back that day and said "Hi Jonathan, We hope all is well. Devices should start shipping this month, we will begin to send ETA soon. Have a great day,". I replied "Thanks! looking forward to playing and testing the device."
December 11 2023 - I sent another email asking "When will shipping start?". I received an email saying "Hi Jonathan, We hope all is well. Based on our current timeline, you can expect your device in the upcoming 7-10 days. We will send a tracking number once the device is shipped. Have a great week!". I replied "Thank you for the update."
December 22 2023 - I replied "Hossaily, at this point if the device isn’t going to ship out in the next coming days, I would like a refund to go with another product. First, I was told a month; and note this was prior to me even placing my order, then I place my order on 10/5 and was told end of the month, then the end of November. then the first week of December. then it was 7-10 days, it's been almost 3 months since I placed my order. I have way too many tanks to continue manual testing and need a solution sooner than later. At this point if it doesn’t ship next week, I would like to cancel my order so I can go with another product. Sorry, hopefully you understand". Then Hady replied "Good morning Jonathan, Apologies for all the delays. However, I was informed that your device was shipped earlier this week. I'll check the tracking number once the shipping company opens today. Have a great weekend,"
December 27th 2023 - Device Arrives - A couple of broken side pieces is the only thing I noticed immediately.
December 28th 2023 - I send an email saying "Hady,This machine is quite frustrating. No matter how many times I run a needle alignment, it does not get it correctly. Now I'm completely out of needles for a $1,200.00 product that can't perform a basic function out of the box. Secondly, no offense, but your documentation is absolutely and ridiculously a joke. There is nothing to find online for the Reefbot Lab, I had to find the previous version and look at that manual to see what the LED colors were. Secondly I thought your youtube would have some videos but its quite sad. Sorry for the blunt truth but this machine at best should still be in beta and not in production. The app is extremely confusing and you can't find a single thing online for it."
--- Yes I was a bit frustrated at this point after tinkering with the machine for 6 hours and trying to get it to work. Here is the picture I attached to the email.
Unfortunately, all that came in the box was a QR code that takes you to this video. . There is no manual. No instructions. No Guide on there website at the time I received it either. I was curious what the LED light colors meant and had to guess they meant the same thing as the original Reefbot since that was the only documentation I could find. In my opinion, the app is not easy to use out of the box, once you understand how it functions and works, you ultimately get the hang of it, but it took me a day or so to understand where to find everything and how it works finally. Each Vial has a number, and there are reagents that you assign to each numbered vial, but there are also tests that you can assign to a vial, and that's where it started to get confusing. - Just be ready to have questions about navigating the app. I wish they would have had a small manual that explained the app, or even a quick 5-minute video would have cleared so many questions up immediately.
December 28 2023- Hady replied "Good morning Jonathan, I hope all is well. I am very sorry to hear about this. I believe that the alignment has been changed due to shipping and that it is no longer corrected by the needle alignment test. I can modify this from my end if you can tell me where the needle is located; does it need to move a bit to the left or the right? Additionally, it might need to be aligned by just fixing a bolt that might have come loose during shipping. As for needles, I will send you 20 needles asap. If you are available today, ping me and we can open a call to fix this issue right away.
--- Let me give you a bit of background. I work in the IT sector. One thing I immediately noticed & questioned is How he could make a change to the Reefbot remotely, without me or my permission, by the sound of his reply. I know the device is Cloud-based, but does that mean they can see into my network? I was told the Reefbot basically runs off a Raspberry Pi and I've worked closely with these before. We actually used to use them as a "Tunneling" device into a customer network. We would plug one into each customer site, and then we would have 100% access to the network to help troubleshoot issues such as printers, laptops, etc. I should have gone deeper into this, but unfortunately, I didn't press the issue. It's just something that stood out.
Back to the story, I replied back saying "I'm available now. Sorry for the email. I'm just steaming hot red right now with thing after spending 6+ hours on it."
He then sent me Google Meet instructions and we immediately jumped on a support call, joined via my phone, put it on a tripod so he could see what I was doing close up, and joined the meeting on my computer to use as the mic. We quickly learned the device was broken. The middle shaft is 3D printed. The top, the supports going down, and the baseplate are metal; everything inside is practically 3D printed.
The first thing on the Google Meet Hady mentions is that I had my vials going sideways instead of long ways. The reason I had them this way is because they stick out past the machine, and you can't really put the panels back on. Picture below.
After running a test so he could see where the needle was landing, we found that every time, it was landing in a different spot. Originally he had me undo some bolts for the center shaft to see if it was unaligned and re-tighten them but then we found out that the center shaft was, in fact, broken. Hady asked if it was possible to glue it back together; I said sure, I think I can handle that. The Picture below after gluing it together.
After gluing it together, the needle would land into the vials properly. This was about an hour or two into the call. Unfortunately, the glue would only hold for a few days, if not hours. When looking at the 3D print, you can tell the wall was not very thick and had a good amount of spacing. I guess it's done that way to make the prints faster and save on material but it also makes a weak print. With a small hanging piece, I squeezed it to see how sturdy it was, and it wasn't very strong. I asked Hady why it's 3D printed and his answer was "to keep costs low.". During that same call I mentioned that I had a pretty large 3D printer and could reprint the entire shaft if they sent the files over. He said that could be done. Remember this because it will be important for later. It was now 4-5AM Eastern time and I was tired so called it a day while I left it running some tests.
December 29 2023 - The next morning he replies. "Hello Jonathan, I reviewed your result and everything looks good. The only issue is with the endpoint collected, I would recommend either shaking the vial of redsea alkalinity and trying again, also ensuring that it contains a stirrer magnet inside and inside the testing chamber, or running the redsea alkalinity high-resolution test instead of the normal one you ran; it is the same reagents, just choose the high-resolution option from the tests tab"
I'm not sure what he called good since I was receiving results that "couldn't be read" according to the reefbot and some had completely different colors than expected. I reset the config and reconfigured it even though I double checked everything and it was a match to what I put into the app.
I replied with the following email "Hady, Couple of questions.
- Do the Waste/TankWater/RODI lines have to be that length or can I extend them? I want to put the device somewhere that's semi far from the tank so I'll have to use a 10ft line for Tank water, a 20ft line for RODI and about 5ft for the water line. is that okay?
- Can you send me an email so I have it in writing that you'll be sending me a different unit once we get into January? Do you need pictures of the Damage so you can file that DHL claim on your end? I forgot to mention it yesterday but one of the side covers does have a large crack in it. My guess is they weren't nice with the box.
- I've been running tests on PO4 and Nitrate but they continue to come up as 0 when I know my values aren't 0. Any ideas?
- For the Calcium Beta I found online where you use 5 scoops of powder with 20ml of testing fluid (B+C), shake and then add another 5 scoops. Since I'm using 60ml bottles I just tripled the amount of scoops. Do you see any problem with that?
- I coulnd't find any documentation for the RedSea Iron test. It also has a powder reagent but no instructions anywhere on how to use it. Can you help me out with that?"
His reply: Hello Jonathan, I hope you're doing well.
1. Yes, you can later calibrate the test and RO chambers to 10ml, ensuring the pumps are familiar with the new silicone tube lengths.
Check the video on how to calibrate: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jWtq9j9vKxg
2. The problem is that the entire batch has sold out, and pre-orders for the March batch have already begun. If any canceled orders become available, we can ship you a replacement or, if acceptable, a partial refund.
3. After reviewing your results, it appears there might be a setup issue. For instance:
- The API nitrate test should display shades of yellow-orange-red, but it's showing a shade of blue. This could be due to incorrect reagent assignments between the slots and the mobile app.
Example of correct results:
4. Yes, your approach should work, but note that it might be necessary to discard the reagents after a few days as it is unlikely that you will use the whole 60mls before this mixture becomes unstable. You may want to consider using API or Reef Factory Calcium tests instead of Redsea once the current test ends.
5. Regarding RedSea Iron, it isn't compatible with the ReefBot Lab. Did you mean RedSea iodine? If so, the RedSea iodine powder is solely for preparing the standard solution and isn't required during testing. For Iron, you can utilize JBL, which contains only one liquid reagent.
January 1 2024 - I replied
1. I understand, but what about the salt water thats in the line? eventually it will go back especially if the line is pretty long. So is there a way to tell the machine to basically discharge the first 100ml of salt water prior to taking a sample? That way its pulling a fresh sample of water every time?
2. So, I’m requesting either a partial refund or that I get added to the list for the next set of shipments. If the refund is inadequate or small, then I will just take the replacement device. I understand your already taking pre-orders for the next batch, but shouldn’t you worry about making sure the original buyers are taken care of first? Like I said before, I don’t mind figuring out how to disassemble the reefbot and replace just the broken part but If I’m spending any more time on making this $1,300 piece of equipment work, then I would like a significant refund. Otherwise, I just want what I originally ordered and paid for, a working machine.
Again, sorry to sound like a pest but I gave you a perfect example of this situation before. If you go buy a new Mercedes Benz brand at the dealership; and I compare the reefbot to a Mercedes because it’s advertised as the Benz of automation testing. If you go buy a brand-new Benz and a week later the engine blows up, you're going to go ask for a replacement car. Now sure, you might be a mechanic and be able to fix it yourself, but you wouldn’t pay retail for the car and fix it yourself for free, sorry but business just doesn’t work that way. You would probably tell the dealership to just give you a new one or cut you one heck of a deal on that car and you can do the work yourself. Now, If I was the dealership I would sell the car for what it costs me, possibly even less just to clean my hands of it, but that's just me.
3. Every Bottle is labeled and I labeled them as I put the reagent in. Here is how I have it setup. Picture Attached as well.
- Red Sea Alkalinity
- Red Sea Calcium A
- Red Sea Calcium B+C
- Red Sea Magnesium A
- Red Sea Magnesium B
- Red Sea Magnesium C
- Red Sea PO4 A
- Red Sea PO4 B
- API NO3 Bottle 1
- API NO3 Bottle 2
- Red Sea Iodine A
- Red Sea Iodine B
5. Yes, My Apologies. I do have the red sea Iodine Tests in slots 11-12 but accidentally said Iron. The Red Sea Iodine tests come with a powder, What am I supposed to do with that? I couldn’t find any documentation online.
--- This is the entire reason I asked for a partial refund. Reprinting the parts, tearing this machine apart and then re-assembling it together would easily take at least 6 hours. at least, that's if you don't run into printing issues and everything else. That's why I asked for a partial refund, or a new working machine.
January 2 2024 - Hady replied "Hello Jonathan, Happy New Year! I hope this year brings joy and prosperity to you and your family.
1. No worries, the device is designed to automatically discharge all the water in the tubes and flush them before initiating each test. It's part of the standard functionality in every test cycle.
2. No apologies necessary. We completely understand your concerns. We do not prefer sending individual devices due to the potential risks during transit. After discussing with our management team, we propose a partial refund of $300, which is our standard resolution in similar cases. This amount is equivalent to what we'd typically incur in expenses to send an individual device via shipping, minus the potential risk. We value your feedback on this proposal.
Regarding the preorders for the next batch, we've decided to merge the upcoming batch with the current one due to the high volume of orders. This will ensure a continuous production cycle. Please rest assured, that your device comes with a full one-year warranty, so there's no need for concern in that regard.
3. Regarding the Redsea Iodine powder solution, it's worth noting that it's solely used for manually creating a standard solution and isn't required for testing purposes with the device.
Feel free to reach out if you have further questions or need assistance.
--- Here is when I started to get a bit annoyed. They basically offered me a refund worth their shipping costs. I was already 30+ hours into this machine and all they would offer is their shipping costs? I also own a business, and if it was me, I would have offered it at a cost to at least try to make the customer happy, not what it costs in shipping to ensure we still make a profit from selling the machine. Again, after looking at the machine, I guess that it can't cost more than $300-$400 to make. There's just no way. I would even go as far as saying that if you had a good overseas source, which I guess that they do since it ships from Lebanon, it would cost around the $200 mark when buying quantity.
January 6 2024 - I replied "Hady, I will respond to this email tomorrow but right now I have another question. Why is it that when the machine fills my clear vial with RO water, it overflows? I tried the RO chamber calibration, but it asks for a measurement at the end and but there is no way to measure that vial. it simply just continues to overflow about 5-6 ml of water onto the magnet stirrer. how is the RO calibration supposed to work?"
--- at this point, when running tests, I noticed a small leak. I actually ran a test, stood there with a syringe, and pulled back 9ml of water. So, my thought was to run a calibration and somehow tell the machine to use 9ml less. Unfortunately, when you run a calibration, your value can't exceed 12. My value was 21 but I couldn't enter it into the system. Anything over 12, and it doesn't let you save. Even when I put 12ml into the calibration, nothing changed. It still leaked. Pictures below.
A couple minutes after cleaning the water, I noticed another leak. Originally I didn't notice it because I had towel right under it and it never caught my attention. The inlet filter would leak. So I then send the following email back a couple of minutes later. "This thing also drips every so often, i tried to tighten it as much as possible but still leaks" - picture below.
January 8 2024 - I sent an email saying "It actually overflows exactly 9 ml. I sat there with a syringe sucking out water as it filled so it wouldn't overflow. My syringe had exactly 9ml. So if I can dial it back from inserting an extra 9ml. it should stop my leakage problem." and Hady replied with "Hello Jonathan, I hope all is well. Regarding the RO overflow, when you calibrate the chamber, put 11ml in case of overflow, no need to measure. But it is strange why this is happening, did you elongate the RO tube by a lot? As for the leakage, it might not be the filter, there might be a tear in the tube, did you check this? Alternatively, you can use any other filter in case it is broken or leaking or remove it if your salinity is not too high. Let me know how it goes. Best regards,"
--- The only tubes I extended were my RO & waste lines. I extended my waste line by approximately 10 feet so that it would pour into my sink. Then I stuck a 1/4 line into my RO vat and ran it 15 to the Reefbot. The reef bot comes with silicone lines so I kept their original length and did the following:
January 12 2024 - I sent an email saying the following: "Hady,
The capabilities of This machine are nowhere near what is actually advertised. All the tests that did run are completely off. During the time I had the machine, I sent out 2 ICP tests and did a manual test NIGHTLY to compare. There's a big difference, and it was always off. I'm talking 10%, if not more.
Nitrate continues to read 0 when my manual ATI tests continue to show 20-40; when I sent out an ICP test, it came back at 29 with a 2-point window. I haven't had a test on the reef lab that gave me similar results.
Alkalinity continues to come back at the 9-9.5 mark on the reef lab when it's truly around the 8-8.2 range.
Phosphate continues to read either 0 or 0.02 for every test when my phosphates are really .09-.12 ppm. Again, I am not sure what measurement you are using because there is no labeling or measurement that can be found.
Iodine continued to read 0.03 (in what? ppm, mg/l, ug/l? - I'm unsure because the reef lab does not specify) when it's truly around 15 ug/l. Even if you were measuring in mg/l, that's 0.015, which is still totally off. 0.03 should be around 30ug/l, but it's not even close.
I've kept the magnesium at 1300, but the tests vary between 1400 and 1440 every single time. ATI & Hannah testers come within that 1% window of each other but the reef lab is completely out of that window.
Basically, this machine is just shooting random, useless numbers. Now, that's the testing aspect of it.
Let's get to the hardware of it.
The machine arrived broken; the middle shaft was completely dislocated and snapped from the upper piece. Two of the panels came with a crack. The Machine leaks RO when doing a test, about 9ml of water every time, and according to your team, there is no true fix. I input the numbers you said but it makes no difference at all. When trying to put on the acrylic side panels, they bend out because the 60ml bottles are too big and poke out of the chassis about 1/8-1/4".
I'm sorry it didn't work out. I wish Reef Kinetics the best of luck with their development of this product but at this point, I don't believe it warrants a $1300 price tag when the data is practically useless. Maybe in the future, I would consider rebuying once you further the product's development, but at this point, I would just like a refund.
Please send a shipping label so that I can ship the machine back to your facilities at your earliest convenience."
--- I was somewhat disappointed in the product at this point and by this point I was 40+ hours into this machine and was not happy that after paying $1300, I couldn't get it to work properly.
January 12 2024 - Hady Replies "Hello Jonathan, I hope everything is going well.
I'm sorry to hear about the issues you've experienced with our device. While I understand that the broken part may have left a negative impression, the other issues you mentioned have been resolved and cleared with all users who faced similar incidents in the past.
I'll send you a full report on the device's functionality so you can gain a better understanding of it. Please note that the device's accuracy is based on the accuracy of the test kit used. Therefore, it's not possible to compare the results of different test kits with the results of the device.
Concerning the alkalinity test, I checked your values and found that the results are consistent with the color charts. This means that the test is being carried out correctly, and any inaccurate results may be due to an issue with the water intake. Are you comparing the Redsea KH test used on the Reefbot with another test? (solution mentioned below)
Regarding phosphate, there may be a mutual cause between it and alkalinity. Both redsea alkalinity and redsea phosphate tests use a 10ml water sample, and if the dosing syringe is defective or filled with air instead of water, the results may be inaccurate.
With respect to iodine, I'll forward your concern to our team for investigation. I wasn't aware that the results were not displayed in ppm. I checked your last result and it gave a result of 0.1 ppm. Is this the correct value?
As for nitrate, I understand the frustration you're experiencing. We're constantly updating this test, and we recommend the Tropic Marin Nitrate instead. Additionally, we suggest scheduling the automatic API Nitrate stirring test twice a day to keep the thick reagent in the nitrate vial mixed and stirred to prevent the powder from sticking to the bottom of the vial, which prevents it from going into the syringe and hence results in the 0 value shown.
I strongly recommend that you check and calibrate your testing chamber to 10ml and try again, in addition to checking just for the first 5 mins of the test if the bigger syringe is filling with air bubbles instead of taking the correct amount of sample water required. I'm confident that you'll have a much better experience once this is done, and you'll receive the expected outcome.
Finally, could you please provide more information on the RO leakage issue? Please note that no issue is unsolvable, and we'll do our best to fix it, even if it's remotely.
Looking forward to your reply.
-- My alkalinity test might have been consistent, but they were nowhere near what the manual Red Sea test would give, what my Hannah checker gives, and especially what an ICP test gave me. I also checked my tests against my Trident and it was about 1Dkh off everytime. I never received one test that actually matched any of my other 4 sources or was anywhere near. I had just told him what my Iodine levels were from my recent ICP tests but yet he asked me again what they were.
There are the Here are my ICP results that were sampled January 1 at 11PM. - and yes, I know you can't really compare manual tests to an ICP test but the entire time my hannah checker and RedSea manual tests were right on the money within a decimal or two.
Phosphate ReefBot:
Phosohate Actual: - Hannah Checker & RedSea would also give me results within .01 of these tests.
Reef Bot Nitrate: My Nitrate tests would ALWAYS come back to 0
NItrate Actual Results:
Magnesium Reef Bot:
Magnesium Actual Results:
Iodine Reef Bot: - And unfortunately I can't tell you what measurement because it doesnt say if its ppm, mg/l, or ug/l and there is no documention so I have no idea.
Iodine Actual Results:
Anyway - I won't bore you with each test but you get the idea.
January 18 2024 - I replied to his email saying: "Hady,
0.01 PPM is no where near correct of the actual figure.
In regard to Nitrate, I did try 2 different set of bottles. I had bought three kits in total. Same results.
In regard to calibration, I couldn't put a # higher than 12, so I tried 10-12 but no difference.
In regard to your $300 refund offer. I don't think that's enough, That's why I originally requested a replacement instead. Unfortunately I think I'm past that replacement phase. I'm not going to continue to super glue this machine together to make it work & wait 2-3 more months. The machine is down right now because its completely useless. It cost $1300. I can take those $1300 and invest them into a much better product. Unless your prepared to offer a 50% refund, I just want to return the machine and get my money back."
January 19 2024 - Hady replied to my email but completely ignored the refund part. This is what he sent "Hello, No worries, API Nitrate is a global issue that we address and talk about a lot, this is why we recommend using Tropic Marin nitrate instead. As for the 0.01 ppm value you mentioned, I didn't find what you meant, if you mean the 0.1 ppm RedSea iodine result, the result was white, which in case the reagent is sufficient for the needle to carry, is the proper result for this color, this does not indicate an issue with the device functionality. I understand your frustration and how difficult it must be to feel disappointed after waiting for a long time but we are dedicated to assisting you address them all and getting the best outcome from your device. What I would recommend is using Tropic Marin Nitrate on the device, in addition, in case RedSea Iodine is not aligning with your values, this is a new test that we added, we can investigate if the issue is from our side if you provide us with more information about the issue. As for Calibration, please enter the value of 11 in the mobile app when it puts more than 10ml and it will take it."
January 24 2024 - I replied saying the following: "Hady, You continue to avoid my question entirely. Are you taking the unit back or providing a 50% refund?"
January 26 2024 - I replied "Still waiting for an answer."
January 27 2024 - At this point I hadn't received any communication back, I was already annoyed and felt like the refund talks were being avoided so I called my bank and filled for a charge back. Unfortunately he replied later that day and said "Hello Jonathan, I hope all is well. I am sorry to hear this. Of course, we are open for a 50% discount based on the difficulty you faced fixing the device. Best regards"
I then replied to him saying "Hady, At this point, I'm not interested. For a $1200 product, I shouldn't have to bond broken parts together with glue, I shouldn't have to try and fix the machine so that it works properly. It should just work. It's been nearly a week since my last email. I called the bank this morning to file a chargeback, so please send a return shipping label. I'm sure they will be contacting you as well. I've asked for this multiple times already, so let's put it behind us and just move past it. Send me the label at your earliest convenience so I can return the device. "
He then replied "No worries. Will send you the return label early next week."
Summary - So, in summary, I think at first Hady was super helpful, would answer questions I had, and even decided to jump on a Google Meet with me to help me, BUT that doesn't take away that I had 50+ hours into this product at this point and really couldn't get anything worthwhile from it. I personally don't think that the product is ready to be sold as a "production" unit quite yet. Do I think they could grow this product into something much better with the community? Yes, but they must allow people to get it at a much smaller price point with the upfront knowledge that you'll be tinkering & testing with it in order to improve the product. Unfortunately, I feel like they are 75-80% of the way there but need to bring in revenue to stay afloat and released a partially finished product. Unfortunately, I don't have time to tinker with it, nor do I want to for something that costs $1300. I just want it to work. That is why I think this product should still be in a beta testing phase instead of being marketed as a truly functional machine. I also think that they could release another option for the machine with much better quality parts for those who are willing to pay for it, but again, these are just my opinions and thoughts.
I wanted to be as open as possible and not seem biased or one-sided; that's why I posted the dates for an accurate timeline; at the end of the day, I gave it a chance, but it just wasn't for me. I wrote this post for people to make up their own minds and tried to be as open as possible so people can decide for themselves if this is something they want. I have nothing bad to say about Reef Kinetics besides the facts. Hady was very helpful, but we disagreed on a couple of points. Personally, I think the customer is always right; if you send a customer a broken product, why not fix it for them? Why continue to sell the product to others instead of helping those who already paid for it and didn't get what they ordered? Personally, That doesn't make sense to me.
Anyway, that's my story.
