hmfaysal
Community Member
I started into the saltwater hobby one and half year ago, so basically at the end of the pandemic. Pretty new to the hobby, and did all the novice mistakes imaginable. Started with a Red Sea Reefer Nano Classic, 27 gallons with the sump, and did all the things the videos and experienced people on the forums specifically ask not to do. Introduced fishes before the recommended cycle end time, overstocked the tiny 21 gallon DT, overfed, like clockwork problems arose, parameter swings, off the charts nutrients, which followed by cursory readings on the forums to solve the problems, which at times fueled the problem at hand instead of solving it. Troubles started coming up almost every day. At certain times, it felt more like work than a hobby.
Eventually I tried to recollect myself, calmed down a bit, tried to understand the meaning of patience in the reefing hobby, which is different than normal everyday patience, and planned to tackle one issue at a time. I started with the nutrient issue. Added a dosing pump to add NoPOx, which solved the nitrate issue, didn't really put a dent on off the charts phosphates issue. Added a GFO reactor, which helped for a while, but phosphates kept leaching out from the rock and substrate, it was an uphill battle I could not win till now. Added an ITC aquatics ALR1 algae reactor, again did not do much to reduce phosphates. I upped my phosphate testing to 2 times per week from once per week to help me understand my GFO viability. I simply gave up, and ordered a custom 120 gallon tank to start fresh, this was 6 months into the hobby, as I understood a bigger body of water may dampen the issues. I did all of the mistakes, albeit at a smaller rate in the 120 gallon. Same problems started to creep up. High phosphates, in the range of 0.7 ppm after 6 months, while nitrates remain at 5-10 ppm. I cannot even increase nitrate without extreme overfeeding. Carbon dosing brings NP levels down, but there is always the possibility to strip nitrates altogether. So while all these had been going on, a year has passed. Both tank parameters are pretty spot on other than phosphates. And almost similar uptake. Salinity 35ppt, PH 8.0-8.3, Alk 9.5, Cal 450, Mg 1380, Nitrates 10ppm, Phosphates 0.44ppm. I knew GFO cannot keep up with this, from experience, it stays nice and cozy for a while, then the phosphates simply leach out from the substrate and rocks and skyrocket to the moon. I wanted to try out Lanthanum Chloride.
Going into this route, I wanted to be absolutely sure. I think I read all of the forum posts regarding LaCl. This R2R forum is amazing, thanks guys for the years of posts. I calculated the half dose, and slowly dripped with a saline drip kit on the overflow in the 120 gallon over the course of 3 days. For the nano, I dumped the liquid in the overflow as the amount was so little. I wait 3 days, check phosphates, and the phosphates increased to 0.48ppm. I was scratching my head. So made drip kits for both systems, slowed the drip rate even lower, dripped the diluted full dose over the course of 5 days. I checked the phosphates in the 120 gallon tank on day 2, sure enough the phosphates came down to 0.25ppm, nice, so it was working. After the dose was complete, rechecked, the 120 gallon phosphates were 0.54ppm and the nano was 0.48ppm again. I then understood, why I read so many forum posts about LaCl not working. Bound Phosphates were simply leaching off the rocks and substrate. I made my third attempt. This time around I adjusted my drip rate to finish dosing the 120 gallon in 8 hours, and nano in 2 hours. And checked the phosphates after 3 hours of completion, voila, phosphates are in 0.1-0.14 range. Which I believe will rise to insane levels by tomorrow, but now I have few definitive answers. I will share my observations:
1) Lanthanum Chloride works and it works wonders
2) It produces Lanthanum(III) Phosphate precipitate almost immediately upon contact with water (timed it at around 5 seconds max to complete the reaction). So additional dwell time is not necessary. If dosing to the overflow and there isn't much turbulence in the overflow, try adding a small powerhead inside. That will suffice.
3) In my brief experiment, my observation is the first reaction happens with phosphate, the secondary reaction with carbonate happens after phosphate has been stripped from water it touches.
4) Lanthanum(III) Phosphate precipitate is silvery white, while Lanthanum(III) Carbonate is white and easier to see. IMO, the white stuff people see stuck on their skimmer chambers and cups is mostly Lanthanum(III) Carbonate.
5) I understand now why LaCl needs to be dosed in a high flow area, or slowly dripped, or combination of both for best results. The water it touches should be new water from the tank, and not residual stale water it has already stripped out phosphate from.
6) The precipitate is very fine, probably around 5-10 micron size, imo does not need to be removed if dosed in the overflow or in the filter section of the sump. Usually these precipitate gets filtered out by the filter sock/skimmer or simply settle down in the low flow zones in the sump. No side effects to tank inhabitants including the bacteria.
7) LaCl dose can be calculated from the bottle instructions and your phosphate level, drip rate can be calculated from the overall volume turnover rate of your return pump setting, and dilution rate can be set from the drip rate. For a standard 10x turnover rate, I found 500ml of diluted LaCl can be dosed in 2.7 hours for a 27 gallon total water volume. So simply dividing by 10 or the turnover rate. For 120 gallons, 12 hours. I would go even slower, for the sake of the livestock, just to be sure.
8) Test after 2 hours but before 3 hours in case you need to be sure whether its working. Testing after 24 hours may give extremely high results or the same results before dosing LaCl, as phosphates leach out from the rocks and reach equilibrium.
9) Once all the phosphates have leached out from the rocks and substrate, and results are at 0.1-0.15, I would not touch LaCl with a ten feet pole. GFO all the way to bring it down to recommended levels.
10) Never overdose, always underdose, full dose means however much you need to bring levels down to 0.15ppm according to the instructions on the bottle label, half dose is half of that. Always begin with half dose.
Attached herewith is a small demo of the precipitation, both vials contain tankwater with 0.54 ppm phosphates. The silvery white precipitate in the beginning is Lanthanum Phosphate, the white precipitate cloud following that is Lanthanum Carbonate.
Eventually I tried to recollect myself, calmed down a bit, tried to understand the meaning of patience in the reefing hobby, which is different than normal everyday patience, and planned to tackle one issue at a time. I started with the nutrient issue. Added a dosing pump to add NoPOx, which solved the nitrate issue, didn't really put a dent on off the charts phosphates issue. Added a GFO reactor, which helped for a while, but phosphates kept leaching out from the rock and substrate, it was an uphill battle I could not win till now. Added an ITC aquatics ALR1 algae reactor, again did not do much to reduce phosphates. I upped my phosphate testing to 2 times per week from once per week to help me understand my GFO viability. I simply gave up, and ordered a custom 120 gallon tank to start fresh, this was 6 months into the hobby, as I understood a bigger body of water may dampen the issues. I did all of the mistakes, albeit at a smaller rate in the 120 gallon. Same problems started to creep up. High phosphates, in the range of 0.7 ppm after 6 months, while nitrates remain at 5-10 ppm. I cannot even increase nitrate without extreme overfeeding. Carbon dosing brings NP levels down, but there is always the possibility to strip nitrates altogether. So while all these had been going on, a year has passed. Both tank parameters are pretty spot on other than phosphates. And almost similar uptake. Salinity 35ppt, PH 8.0-8.3, Alk 9.5, Cal 450, Mg 1380, Nitrates 10ppm, Phosphates 0.44ppm. I knew GFO cannot keep up with this, from experience, it stays nice and cozy for a while, then the phosphates simply leach out from the substrate and rocks and skyrocket to the moon. I wanted to try out Lanthanum Chloride.
Going into this route, I wanted to be absolutely sure. I think I read all of the forum posts regarding LaCl. This R2R forum is amazing, thanks guys for the years of posts. I calculated the half dose, and slowly dripped with a saline drip kit on the overflow in the 120 gallon over the course of 3 days. For the nano, I dumped the liquid in the overflow as the amount was so little. I wait 3 days, check phosphates, and the phosphates increased to 0.48ppm. I was scratching my head. So made drip kits for both systems, slowed the drip rate even lower, dripped the diluted full dose over the course of 5 days. I checked the phosphates in the 120 gallon tank on day 2, sure enough the phosphates came down to 0.25ppm, nice, so it was working. After the dose was complete, rechecked, the 120 gallon phosphates were 0.54ppm and the nano was 0.48ppm again. I then understood, why I read so many forum posts about LaCl not working. Bound Phosphates were simply leaching off the rocks and substrate. I made my third attempt. This time around I adjusted my drip rate to finish dosing the 120 gallon in 8 hours, and nano in 2 hours. And checked the phosphates after 3 hours of completion, voila, phosphates are in 0.1-0.14 range. Which I believe will rise to insane levels by tomorrow, but now I have few definitive answers. I will share my observations:
1) Lanthanum Chloride works and it works wonders
2) It produces Lanthanum(III) Phosphate precipitate almost immediately upon contact with water (timed it at around 5 seconds max to complete the reaction). So additional dwell time is not necessary. If dosing to the overflow and there isn't much turbulence in the overflow, try adding a small powerhead inside. That will suffice.
3) In my brief experiment, my observation is the first reaction happens with phosphate, the secondary reaction with carbonate happens after phosphate has been stripped from water it touches.
4) Lanthanum(III) Phosphate precipitate is silvery white, while Lanthanum(III) Carbonate is white and easier to see. IMO, the white stuff people see stuck on their skimmer chambers and cups is mostly Lanthanum(III) Carbonate.
5) I understand now why LaCl needs to be dosed in a high flow area, or slowly dripped, or combination of both for best results. The water it touches should be new water from the tank, and not residual stale water it has already stripped out phosphate from.
6) The precipitate is very fine, probably around 5-10 micron size, imo does not need to be removed if dosed in the overflow or in the filter section of the sump. Usually these precipitate gets filtered out by the filter sock/skimmer or simply settle down in the low flow zones in the sump. No side effects to tank inhabitants including the bacteria.
7) LaCl dose can be calculated from the bottle instructions and your phosphate level, drip rate can be calculated from the overall volume turnover rate of your return pump setting, and dilution rate can be set from the drip rate. For a standard 10x turnover rate, I found 500ml of diluted LaCl can be dosed in 2.7 hours for a 27 gallon total water volume. So simply dividing by 10 or the turnover rate. For 120 gallons, 12 hours. I would go even slower, for the sake of the livestock, just to be sure.
8) Test after 2 hours but before 3 hours in case you need to be sure whether its working. Testing after 24 hours may give extremely high results or the same results before dosing LaCl, as phosphates leach out from the rocks and reach equilibrium.
9) Once all the phosphates have leached out from the rocks and substrate, and results are at 0.1-0.15, I would not touch LaCl with a ten feet pole. GFO all the way to bring it down to recommended levels.
10) Never overdose, always underdose, full dose means however much you need to bring levels down to 0.15ppm according to the instructions on the bottle label, half dose is half of that. Always begin with half dose.
Attached herewith is a small demo of the precipitation, both vials contain tankwater with 0.54 ppm phosphates. The silvery white precipitate in the beginning is Lanthanum Phosphate, the white precipitate cloud following that is Lanthanum Carbonate.
. Thanks for posting your results
