more FOOD for thought

lion king

5000 Club Member
View Badges
Joined
Jul 3, 2016
Messages
6,797
Reaction score
8,685
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Nutrition, maybe even more important than water quality, or at least equal to. I always give the disclaimer, that I am not an expert, because like myself, I expect everyone to do their own research. Oops, I forgot those were the 4 most dangerous words, "do your own research". I have over 3 decades of keeping predatory fish and have studied nutrition extensively, likely much more than your so-called experts. My findings are much more than anecdotal, they are of 100s of examples over 3 decades. So consider at your own peril.

My expertise lies with predatory fish, mainly from the family of Scorpaenidae, yet all the info I provide many times goes with anglers/frogfish, eels, and any other species considered a predator. I am not talking about aggressive species like triggers or others that have adapted to a more conventional captive diet. There is something about the nutritional requirements of these predatory fish that is the root to a failure in long term success. And yes keeping a dwarf lion for 1-2 years is a failure, and keeping an eel for 2-4 years is a failure. Lions live 10-15 years in the wild, and eels live 20-30 years. So let's explore what can help us all keep these awesome creatures long enough to rival their lives in the wild.

We must first start with a healthy fish, free of disease and absent of any internal parasites, which is very prevalent in these species. Many of these species almost always requires an initial feeding of live food. This is true of all healthy fish that still refuse to eat the food offered, even after an appropriate time of acclimation. Regardless of the species, new additions that won't eat should be offered appropriate live foods. Even herbivores, offer them live macro algae and a seasoned rock with micro algae for grazing. Many wrasses and angels, as well as tangs will take to live black worms, live brine shrimp, and pods. The trick to getting the notoriously difficult orange spotted filefish to eat is start with a live coral, then smash food into the skeleton. Difficult spongivorous angels, a mature rock with some cryptic sponges, pods, and micro algae will get them by until they start feeding. I prefer an observation tank to the classic qt tank, as I prepare the tank specifically for the needs of the species. Most times treatment for internal parasites is all that is needed, and a tank with rock is just fine, just take care to dose with consideration of displacement.

Now to the subject at hand. You have 2 choices if you really want to keep the aforementioned species more than a couple/few years. You can include live foods in their diet, or you can be very diligent as to the dead foods you are feeding, as well as the ones you are not. For live food offerings I suggest ghost shrimp, guppies, and mollies; appropriately sized and determined what you have available. Fiddler crabs are good offerings to pebbletooth eels as well as puffers. Lions, scorps, anglers, goblins, toadfish; won't eat hard bodied inverts. If you need and don't mind the expense, you can also offer peppermint shrimp, otherwise I do not recommend any saltwater fish. Offering salt water fish eventually always ends with the introduction of disease. Live fish is a complete nutrition with the addition of live gut flora and bones. Ghost shrimp with a much more simple digestive tract, but still containing vital nutrients, and a shell. While some of my may eat a substantial amount of ghost shrimp, I always provide some live fish. Some larger fish as well as the ribbon eel may prefer a more fish dominant diet. so appropriately sized mollies will keep them happy for many years.

Now for those that simply will not or can not offer live foods, if you do provide the few basic required nutrients, they just simply will not live that long. Essential fatty acids, vitamin c and e, minerals, and B vitamins. Fatty fish is necessary inclusion, salmon and tuna being the best. Wild caught is best and skin on the salmon. I know tuna is very expensive but it is very high in vitamin c. Vitamin c is necessary for the immune system as well as healing. A pelleted food high in vitamin c may be a better alternative, you can stuff the pellets into chunks of fish. Shell of shrimp, the shells provide needed minerals. Fish also absorb nutrients from the water column, so even in a fowlr, make sure to keep reef levels of ca and mg. Mussels are high in B1, a B1 deficiency many times contribute to a premature death. You can feed may items from the seafood counter, I suggest human grade seafood bought fresh and frozen in small batches. Frozen foods will maintain optimum nutrition for a limited time, after a while nutrients will decrease. So not only do you have to pay attention to what you are feedings, but also what you are not feeding. A diet high in thiaminese will surely end in a premature death, thiaminese binds vitamin B1. Krill and most forms of silversides are the main culprit in thiaminese. Many forms of seafood will contain thaminese, even some that I recommend, like shrimp and mussels. The key is fresh and fresh frozen will have more vitamin B1 than thiaminese. There are predatory formulas you can get ate the lfs that do use human grade ingredients, very expensive but are the best option if you are not preparing your own from the human market. I only recommend these formulas and Hikari brand silversides. Silversides is a common name given to many species, and Hikari uses a species with no thiaminese. The reason for the recommendation of human grade food is that fish products for pet food is treated with a very dangerous preservative called ethoxyquin. This preservative is known to be carcinogenetic and is sprayed on the fish on the docks before it is even processed, that's why you never see it listed in the ingredients, and that's one reason the label "not for human consumption".

The challenges of feeding a dead only diet. There are some species that will never take the inclusion of some of the necessary foods to achieve proper nutrition, and that's why many will need live food if you want them to live a long life. Some may take dead food, but not enough to sustain over time. Some may take dead food but gets stuck on high thiaminese foods and die within several months to a year and a half. Some people get old bags of frozen shrimp or feed shrimp that has been in their freezer way too long. This old shrimp will be depleted of vitamin B1 and contain a high amount of thiaminese. Other pitfalls concerning feeding has to do with feeding too frequently, this causes fatty liver disease. these predatory fish because of their metabolism, require a fast/gorge feeding schedule. A big no-no on feeding live; absolutely no goldfish or rosies, mainly these contain a large amount of thiaminese as weell as other negative health concerns as improper fats and binding in the gut. A bonus tip to aid in digestion, keep your mg at 1400ppm, mag is known to support digestion. I'm sure you have heard of dosing epsom salt, don't, the secret about epsom salt if that the active ingredient is mag. Use reef mg, epsom salt contains other questionable ingredients and is also used as a fertilizer, so expect an algae bloom as a bonus.

If you can get your preds feeding on a variety of dead foods good for you. Volitan lions and eels. with patience. many times will take a variety of dead foods and live a very long life. Their are other species that do well, the toadfish also takes a variety easily. Many of the species of dwarf and medium bodied lions, anglers, and many scorps for the most part, just will not comply. My best dead diet recommendations is as follows; salmon with skin, shrimp with shells, mussels, Hikari siversides stuffed with pellets high in vitamin c.
 

vetteguy53081

Well known Member and monster tank lover
View Badges
Joined
Aug 11, 2013
Messages
96,707
Reaction score
215,505
Location
Wisconsin -
Rating - 100%
15   0   0
Nicely written. Such a wide variety of food out there, yet few choose to mix it up and try foods. Impatience is the hardest part to feeding predators. They eventually take dead/frozen food source with trial and patience
Water quality and diet I often preach are keys to overall fish health and success
 
OP
OP
lion king

lion king

5000 Club Member
View Badges
Joined
Jul 3, 2016
Messages
6,797
Reaction score
8,685
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Anywhere to order live marine feeders?

I don't know of any "marine feeder fish" and I do not recommend feeding marine fish. It is pretty much inevitable that disease will be introduced sooner than later if you use marine fish.
 

JC1977

Valuable Member
View Badges
Joined
Jan 7, 2023
Messages
1,654
Reaction score
9,474
Location
Visalia
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Another informative write up. Appreciate all your advice on nutrition. I’ve started making my own blend of foods using fresh sea food after reading your articles and making a point to include salmon or tuna which I had grossly overlooked before. Thanks again!
 

Freddie83

Active Member
View Badges
Joined
Jul 2, 2013
Messages
264
Reaction score
137
Location
Savannah, GA
Rating - 100%
1   0   0
I don't know of any "marine feeder fish" and I do not recommend feeding marine fish. It is pretty much inevitable that disease will be introduced sooner than later if you use marine fish.
Putting the feeders through a quarantine should solve this, no?
 
OP
OP
lion king

lion king

5000 Club Member
View Badges
Joined
Jul 3, 2016
Messages
6,797
Reaction score
8,685
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Putting the feeders through a quarantine should solve this, no?

A better chance but you can not use any meds unless you want to poison your food source. The sensitivity of meds to the preds would be transferred via food, like mercury in fish for humans. A lengthy observational qt of 4-6 weeks would give you a better chance, but if you were to do that, then breeding your own mollies would be a better option.

The best option for live fish feeders will be guppies and/or mollies. Best if you breed them yourself in brackish water, these are brackish fish are related to the same benthic fish species many of the predators would eat in the wild. These species have been successfully used and proven to provide the proper nutrition to keep your predators alive and healthy for time close to their wild lifespan; healthier than a dead only diet. Using these fish from a fresh water source will be the safest option, these are not the fish when people warn about fresh water feeders, although unknowingly they do include them in their comments. Rosies and goldfish or any other fresh water fish are not to be used. If you have predators that need a live fish source, mollies and guppies are your "best" choice.
 

HAVE YOU EVER KEPT A RARE/UNCOMMON FISH, CORAL, OR INVERT? SHOW IT OFF IN THE THREAD!

  • Yes!

    Votes: 32 45.7%
  • Not yet, but I have one that I want to buy in mind!

    Votes: 9 12.9%
  • No.

    Votes: 26 37.1%
  • Other (please explain).

    Votes: 3 4.3%
Back
Top