(maybe emergency) Clownfish lying on side breathing hard after oxygenation issue last night

[Tired]

(I have since blocked the flickering light that was coming in, in case it was bothering him.)

I got this guy late February-early March. He's from a private breeder, shipped directly from their house, so he shouldn't have been exposed to anything in the supply chain, and presumably the breeder's stock is at least reasonably healthy. Not sure I'm super impressed with them, though- this guy's always had sort of a bulldog shape from the front, something like that flared gills thing clownfish can get, and a tendency to swim tilted head-up when idle. He's always acted what looks like normal to me, he can put himself at a normal angle just fine to zip around, and he eats like a pig, so I've been attributing the tilt to either an individual quirk or weird clownfish behavior. Maybe that's been a mistake.

He just finished a chloroquine phosphate treatment, without any signs of poor interactions, and is in a QT waiting on me to resolve my display tank leak.

Yesterday, the airline to the tank somehow got unplugged, and I didn't notice for what must have been awhile- it killed a dottyback that was in the tank with him, and he was lying in the corner, breathing hard, though his mate and the molly were alright aside from some fast breathing. I got the airline plugged back in, did a 50% water change, and watched him until he went back to acting normal. Then I went to bed.

This morning, he's back to lying on the ground, breathing hard. The airline is still going, so it can't be oxygen this time. He'll occasionally get up and wiggle around a bit, like he's trying to go back to acting normally, and then lay down again. I'm not sure what to do here- I'd think freshwater dip to see if it's a pathogen and he might get some relief, but I hate to freshwater dip a fish that's already struggling.
Is it possible this is some sort of residual issue from the pump going off yesterday?

I did add a black molly to this tank on the 26th, and it's been bothering the clowns, nipping at them. He didn't seem too stressed, he'd just whip around and nip back, but I have now removed the molly so it won't bother him. He also has a potentially female clown in there, but I'd thought they were pretty much done with the dominance thing, and she's never been really hard on him.

No ammonia, salinity 1.024, temp 79F, respiration ~150bpm if I've counted right.

 

[vetteguy53081]

(I have since blocked the flickering light that was coming in, in case it was bothering him.)

I got this guy late February-early March. He's from a private breeder, shipped directly from their house, so he shouldn't have been exposed to anything in the supply chain, and presumably the breeder's stock is at least reasonably healthy. Not sure I'm super impressed with them, though- this guy's always had sort of a bulldog shape from the front, something like that flared gills thing clownfish can get, and a tendency to swim tilted head-up when idle. He's always acted what looks like normal to me, he can put himself at a normal angle just fine to zip around, and he eats like a pig, so I've been attributing the tilt to either an individual quirk or weird clownfish behavior. Maybe that's been a mistake.

He just finished a chloroquine phosphate treatment, without any signs of poor interactions, and is in a QT waiting on me to resolve my display tank leak.

Yesterday, the airline to the tank somehow got unplugged, and I didn't notice for what must have been awhile- it killed a dottyback that was in the tank with him, and he was lying in the corner, breathing hard, though his mate and the molly were alright aside from some fast breathing. I got the airline plugged back in, did a 50% water change, and watched him until he went back to acting normal. Then I went to bed.

This morning, he's back to lying on the ground, breathing hard. The airline is still going, so it can't be oxygen this time. He'll occasionally get up and wiggle around a bit, like he's trying to go back to acting normally, and then lay down again. I'm not sure what to do here- I'd think freshwater dip to see if it's a pathogen and he might get some relief, but I hate to freshwater dip a fish that's already struggling.
Is it possible this is some sort of residual issue from the pump going off yesterday?

I did add a black molly to this tank on the 26th, and it's been bothering the clowns, nipping at them. He didn't seem too stressed, he'd just whip around and nip back, but I have now removed the molly so it won't bother him. He also has a potentially female clown in there, but I'd thought they were pretty much done with the dominance thing, and she's never been really hard on him.

No ammonia, salinity 1.024, temp 79F, respiration ~150bpm if I've counted right.

Pictures are not coming through but I generally dont advise its use as it is an antimalarial drug for humans and should be dosed at 40ml per gallon and this level must be maintained constantly during treatment often affected by rise in ammonia. It can easily become toxic to fish which is what may have happened.

 

[Tired]

The videos should be working now, I've added different links.

Wouldn't that have affected him during treatment, though, instead of after? Or could the stress from the oxygen issue have somehow compounded things?

I did frequent water changes (with the med dosed into the new water) during treatment, so no ammonia there either.

If that is the case, is there anything I can do? He's been out of the meds for a few days.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

(I have since blocked the flickering light that was coming in, in case it was bothering him.)

I got this guy late February-early March. He's from a private breeder, shipped directly from their house, so he shouldn't have been exposed to anything in the supply chain, and presumably the breeder's stock is at least reasonably healthy. Not sure I'm super impressed with them, though- this guy's always had sort of a bulldog shape from the front, something like that flared gills thing clownfish can get, and a tendency to swim tilted head-up when idle. He's always acted what looks like normal to me, he can put himself at a normal angle just fine to zip around, and he eats like a pig, so I've been attributing the tilt to either an individual quirk or weird clownfish behavior. Maybe that's been a mistake.

He just finished a chloroquine phosphate treatment, without any signs of poor interactions, and is in a QT waiting on me to resolve my display tank leak.

Yesterday, the airline to the tank somehow got unplugged, and I didn't notice for what must have been awhile- it killed a dottyback that was in the tank with him, and he was lying in the corner, breathing hard, though his mate and the molly were alright aside from some fast breathing. I got the airline plugged back in, did a 50% water change, and watched him until he went back to acting normal. Then I went to bed.

This morning, he's back to lying on the ground, breathing hard. The airline is still going, so it can't be oxygen this time. He'll occasionally get up and wiggle around a bit, like he's trying to go back to acting normally, and then lay down again. I'm not sure what to do here- I'd think freshwater dip to see if it's a pathogen and he might get some relief, but I hate to freshwater dip a fish that's already struggling.
Is it possible this is some sort of residual issue from the pump going off yesterday?

I did add a black molly to this tank on the 26th, and it's been bothering the clowns, nipping at them. He didn't seem too stressed, he'd just whip around and nip back, but I have now removed the molly so it won't bother him. He also has a potentially female clown in there, but I'd thought they were pretty much done with the dominance thing, and she's never been really hard on him.

No ammonia, salinity 1.024, temp 79F, respiration ~150bpm if I've counted right.

Lack of oxygen can cause damage to the fish that does not always resolve once the oxygen level is restored - no way to judge that though. The best thing to do is to keep the lights dim, lower the salinity a bit (perhaps to 1.021) and just hope for the best. Some people advocate for using methylene blue dips. This is in response to that material being used as a substitute oxygen donor in cases of cyanide poisoning in people. Extrapolating that out to cases like this is a bit of a stretch, but if you could do that, maybe it would help? The common dose for MB is 2 ppm.

Jay

 

[Tired]

I posted this on the humble.fish forum as well and was advised to give a methylene blue bath and then move into the lower amount of methylene blue used for disease treatment. Just finished with the bath. It may have helped slightly, or that might be wishful thinking.

It's safe to drop the salinity all at once, right? IIRC it's only salinity raising that has to be done carefully.

(Except with mollies, for some reason. Just scooped a molly out of 1.008 and dropped it into 1.023 after some research saying this is the best way to acclimate them, and it's thriving.)

 

[MnFish1]

(I have since blocked the flickering light that was coming in, in case it was bothering him.)

I got this guy late February-early March. He's from a private breeder, shipped directly from their house, so he shouldn't have been exposed to anything in the supply chain, and presumably the breeder's stock is at least reasonably healthy. Not sure I'm super impressed with them, though- this guy's always had sort of a bulldog shape from the front, something like that flared gills thing clownfish can get, and a tendency to swim tilted head-up when idle. He's always acted what looks like normal to me, he can put himself at a normal angle just fine to zip around, and he eats like a pig, so I've been attributing the tilt to either an individual quirk or weird clownfish behavior. Maybe that's been a mistake.

He just finished a chloroquine phosphate treatment, without any signs of poor interactions, and is in a QT waiting on me to resolve my display tank leak.

Yesterday, the airline to the tank somehow got unplugged, and I didn't notice for what must have been awhile- it killed a dottyback that was in the tank with him, and he was lying in the corner, breathing hard, though his mate and the molly were alright aside from some fast breathing. I got the airline plugged back in, did a 50% water change, and watched him until he went back to acting normal. Then I went to bed.

This morning, he's back to lying on the ground, breathing hard. The airline is still going, so it can't be oxygen this time. He'll occasionally get up and wiggle around a bit, like he's trying to go back to acting normally, and then lay down again. I'm not sure what to do here- I'd think freshwater dip to see if it's a pathogen and he might get some relief, but I hate to freshwater dip a fish that's already struggling.
Is it possible this is some sort of residual issue from the pump going off yesterday?

I did add a black molly to this tank on the 26th, and it's been bothering the clowns, nipping at them. He didn't seem too stressed, he'd just whip around and nip back, but I have now removed the molly so it won't bother him. He also has a potentially female clown in there, but I'd thought they were pretty much done with the dominance thing, and she's never been really hard on him.

No ammonia, salinity 1.024, temp 79F, respiration ~150bpm if I've counted right.

The fish is breathing extremely heavily. Quickly - I would suggest a water change. Chloroquine can cause low O2 in the water. IMHO - it could be an ammonia//O2 issue

 

[Tired]

He hasn't been in CP since the 25th. No ammonia present in the tank, now or during the treatment- I did water changes during. There's also an airstone in the tank, which I'd think would make low oxygen unlikely? Since that seems to be the advised method of aeration during treatments that can lower oxygen.

 

[MnFish1]

My understanding is that mollies can also introduce parasites. How is the fish doing now?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I posted this on the humble.fish forum as well and was advised to give a methylene blue bath and then move into the lower amount of methylene blue used for disease treatment. Just finished with the bath. It may have helped slightly, or that might be wishful thinking.

It's safe to drop the salinity all at once, right? IIRC it's only salinity raising that has to be done carefully.

(Except with mollies, for some reason. Just scooped a molly out of 1.008 and dropped it into 1.023 after some research saying this is the best way to acclimate them, and it's thriving.)

With healthy fish you can drop them that fast, in this case you might want to do it in two stages over a couple of hours.
Jay

 

[MnFish1]

With healthy fish you can drop them that fast, in this case you might want to do it in two stages over a couple of hours.
Jay

Were you able to see the video - to me the fish looks quite sick? I'm wondering about treatment options?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Were you able to see the video - to me the fish looks quite sick? I'm wondering about treatment options?

Since the OP said the issue began after the low oxygen event, l’m taking that to mean the issue does not have a treatable disease component….I didn’t see anything in the post to lead me think that there was another cause here. Sometimes people do misidentify causation though….

Jay

 

[MnFish1]

Since the OP said the issue began after the low oxygen event, l’m taking that to mean the issue does not have a treatable disease component….I didn’t see anything in the post to lead me think that there was another cause here. Sometimes people do misidentify causation though….

Jay

I don't know if you saw the videos? The one fish (I assume its one of the fish present as compared to all of them) - looks not great

EDIT - I suppose that one fish could be more affected than another? But - its one fish

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I don't know if you saw the videos? The one fish (I assume its one of the fish present as compared to all of them) - looks not great

Right, but my understanding was it is fine the day before the airline got undone and a dottyback died from that and the other clown and Molly are better, but also breathing a bit fast. I might question the causation a bit more (like the fish were actually breathing fast the days prior to the airline incident?) but these fish went through CP, which greater lowers the risk of a gill disease….so again, I stuck with the OP’s observation that this was caused by oxygen deprivation.

Jay

 

[Tired]

You're correct- the other fish in the tank all looked to be fine before the airline issue. The other clown and the molly were breathing a little fast when I found the problem, but neither was gasping to the extent that this clown was. I'd also think/hope that getting this guy direct from a breeder reduces the chance that he'd have any of the serious pathogens- surely the breeder would notice and treat that to avoid losing broodstock. Plus, I've had this guy for a couple months- if he had flukes, which I think are the main pathogen suspect in this case, wouldn't he have shown that before now?

I do wonder if what looks to me like a relatively mild gill deformity (that bulldog jaw you can't really see in the video) could mean there's something going on internally that would have made him more vulnerable to the low oxygen. Maybe he doesn't have as much gill tissue as he should, and, like folks with limited lung capacity, can function fine unless badly stressed.
I haven't seen any signs of anything wrong before this, and I have been watching. He's tended to hang around the surface, which I would be suspicious of if not for the fact that he stopped doing that about a week ago, right when he and the female clown started acting like a pair. I think that was behavioral, not an attempt to get more oxygen, particularly as I never saw any gasping.


He's currently in 0.5ml methylene blue, and he's doing better! He's now at about 14-17 breaths per 10 seconds, down from 25 per 10 seconds. It speeds up if he moves around at all, and he moves around at all when I point a flashlight at him while he's trying to sleep.

I've left him in the bucket that I did the bath in, as it's dark and quiet, though I've reduced the amount of MB from bath quantity to normal treatment quantity. Tomorrow I'm going to put him, his mate, and the molly (who will be isolated in a breeder basket until this guy is doing better) into a tank with that same amount of MB, both in case they're also suffering from whatever happened and so that he stays bonded to the female. Per the advice given on the other forum, I'm going to dose 0.5ml MB per gallon every 48 hours, for 10 days, with water changes between doses. After that, I'll remove the MB and evaluate. If he's still showing signs of distress, I'll likely treat with Prazipro in case there are flukes. Also just on the off chance he's found some worms somewhere. I've been told it's best not to mix the two medications, which is why I'm not treating with Prazipro now.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

You're correct- the other fish in the tank all looked to be fine before the airline issue. The other clown and the molly were breathing a little fast when I found the problem, but neither was gasping to the extent that this clown was. I'd also think/hope that getting this guy direct from a breeder reduces the chance that he'd have any of the serious pathogens- surely the breeder would notice and treat that to avoid losing broodstock. Plus, I've had this guy for a couple months- if he had flukes, which I think are the main pathogen suspect in this case, wouldn't he have shown that before now?

I do wonder if what looks to me like a relatively mild gill deformity (that bulldog jaw you can't really see in the video) could mean there's something going on internally that would have made him more vulnerable to the low oxygen. Maybe he doesn't have as much gill tissue as he should, and, like folks with limited lung capacity, can function fine unless badly stressed.
I haven't seen any signs of anything wrong before this, and I have been watching. He's tended to hang around the surface, which I would be suspicious of if not for the fact that he stopped doing that about a week ago, right when he and the female clown started acting like a pair. I think that was behavioral, not an attempt to get more oxygen, particularly as I never saw any gasping.


He's currently in 0.5ml methylene blue, and he's doing better! He's now at about 14-17 breaths per 10 seconds, down from 25 per 10 seconds. It speeds up if he moves around at all, and he moves around at all when I point a flashlight at him while he's trying to sleep.

I've left him in the bucket that I did the bath in, as it's dark and quiet, though I've reduced the amount of MB from bath quantity to normal treatment quantity. Tomorrow I'm going to put him, his mate, and the molly (who will be isolated in a breeder basket until this guy is doing better) into a tank with that same amount of MB, both in case they're also suffering from whatever happened and so that he stays bonded to the female. Per the advice given on the other forum, I'm going to dose 0.5ml MB per gallon every 48 hours, for 10 days, with water changes between doses. After that, I'll remove the MB and evaluate. If he's still showing signs of distress, I'll likely treat with Prazipro in case there are flukes. Also just on the off chance he's found some worms somewhere. I've been told it's best not to mix the two medications, which is why I'm not treating with Prazipro now.

I agree this clown could have been hit harder due to its developmental deformity possibly impairing it’s ability to ventilate.

Regarding MB, your dose is wholly dependent on the concentration of the stock solution that you are using. So essentially, 0.5 ml of MB isn’t really a dose because MB is a powder and you are using a solution of that. The bottle might give you the actual dose rate.
MB is often “prescribed” as a totally helpful, safe drug, but it has side effects and can be toxic to the nitrifying bacteria - so monitor the ammonia level for a week or so after use.

Jay

 

[Tired]

Ah, good point. Okay- bottle says 1 teaspoon per 10 gallons for a concentration of 3ppm. A teaspoon is 4.9ml, so ~5ml per 10 gallons is- 0.5ml per gallon. Guess this is the form of methylene blue the guide assumes I'm using.

I'll watch the ammonia, and dose bottle bacteria after the MB is out to help on that front. I also have some live ulva I'll pop in, though, judging by the number of people I saw saying it'll kill freshwater plants, ulva should wait until the MB is out as well. Though I might add a half-inch square and see what happens.

Hopefully this little guy can recover. The gills don't seem to be bad enough to impair his normal quality of life on their own, so I hope this hasn't done any lasting damage to add to that.

 

[Tired]

Well, he's moving around, and he's eating! But he seems to be having some trouble locating food, and he's moving weird.


I've seen a lesser version of this behavior before. I took it for either him hunting the condensation drops from the surface (which the dottyback was also interested in sometimes), or him trying to avoid the female while he hadn't yet bonded with her.

 

[Tired]

Looks like he's okay! He's eating readily, and the vertical tilt looks mostly intentional; he was swimming at a 15-degree angle off horizontal when I opened the lid, moving around with his lady. I think this is a combination of clownfish begging and lack of coordination. Hard to tell when he starts doing this every time he sees me.

 

[Schulks]

I think that is a swim bladder issue. There is a clown at one of my LFS who is stuck swimming like that :/
At my LFS he looks really sassy and happy though.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

+1 on it being negatively buoyant. That is a common developmental issue called "belly sliding". Sometimes, breeders don't cull fish as heavily as they really should. Head deformity, swimming at an upwards angle point to that IMO. Culling fish is tough: breeders lose money when they cull, and small breeders get attached to their fish and try to keep them all.

Jay