Marty's 8' 300g/sump room build. ~750g system

[Mshort03]

@Dyanna Diaz just tested for me at 8.7 so that's better than yesterday. Just wondering which end I should tweak. Effluent or co2.

 

[crusso1993]

Ok so I set the psi to 5. I will leave it there. The bubble is at 1 per second. So let's say we leave all that alone. To INCREASE all delivery I should DECREASE effluent flow? So should I go below my original starting point of 30ml/min?

Also do you have any comments on the run time of the co2 delivery and if I'm right in assuming increasing co2 simply gets it back to the set ph quicker?

Sorry if I'm being difficult I just have ~15k in corals in this system so far so I am trying to reduce fluctuations lol.

Also with carbon doser people running 2-3 seconds a bubble.. but I'm at 1. Which is more so I'm getting lost as to how they have such a different co2 delivery rate than I do.

If it helps any I was dosing 160 ml/day of 2 part. Esv bionic (80ml each part/day)

@Dyanna Diaz just tested for me at 8.7 so that's better than yesterday. Just wondering which end I should tweak. Effluent or co2.

You're not being difficult, at all, so just stop thinking that.

I'm still in car but, for now, watch the BRS video. It's only like 12 min but I think will help you kind of understand what's going on.
I wish one of the guys I tagged could have gotten back to you.

 

[Mshort03]

I will certainly watch the video. Right now I'm at 8.7 all, 450 cal, and 1400 mag. Basically perfect. Well see how that holds for another day before any more changes but I appreciate all this help and if anyone else or the people tagged could chime in I'd love to soak up all the Info I can. I do understand the basic workings and the science of the reactor but there was just few "loose ends" I wanted to clarify. I do tend to over think things as well.

Cant say how much I appreciate all of you! This is really a great community

 

[Mshort03]

@Dsnakes due to my excitement I figured I'd retract my previous statement about the loud pipes.. I turned my pump down to 55% and they got quiet even with running a straight open pipe. I was over pumping the drains, I really under estimated the power of this abyzz! Now it's only pulling 58 watts ta boot

 

[Mshort03]

@crusso1993 that video was right on the money! How weird for it to come out today too

 

[crusso1993]

@crusso1993 that video was right on the money! How weird for it to come out today too

Yeah that's some funny timing. Apparently, BRS Investigates is doing a series of CaRXs. I'm not a huge fan of the BRS videos because they are always pushing products under the guise of being helpful. However, it is a part of a smart business model and I think most people recognize the underlying motive. Nevertheless, the videos are informative and have helped many hobbyists.

I'm happy you're figuring it all out!

 

[Mshort03]

So I guess I'll be heading to Walmart tonight to try and find a small air conditioner.. the room was 101 yesterday and frag system had gotten up to 85! Luckily most of frags are in one of the 90s in the display system still, and the stuff in frag system was good so luckily I didn't lose anything but dang.. I guess I didn't think about the heat all this equipment would produce. Figure I can cut hole in wall of room and drain ac to outside.. this would keep room cool and thus tanks cool, also would help with moisture just by nature of how ac works.. but does anyone have any other ideas?

For now I'm keeping door open so it shares air with the garage but I cant do that forever because the salty air will rust my tools in my garage.. any and all ideas are appreciated!

 

[crusso1993]

So I guess I'll be heading to Walmart tonight to try and find a small air conditioner.. the room was 101 yesterday and frag system had gotten up to 85! Luckily most of frags are in one of the 90s in the display system still, and the stuff in frag system was good so luckily I didn't lose anything but dang.. I guess I didn't think about the heat all this equipment would produce. Figure I can cut hole in wall of room and drain ac to outside.. this would keep room cool and thus tanks cool, also would help with moisture just by nature of how ac works.. but does anyone have any other ideas?

For now I'm keeping door open so it shares air with the garage but I cant do that forever because the salty air will rust my tools in my garage.. any and all ideas are appreciated!

101? Dang!

Cooling options are limited to A/C, chiller(s) or homemade chiller(s) using a fridge and titanium coil. For what you're doing, I believe the simplest and most cost effective fix is putting the A/C unit in the wall and draing outside like you mention. A good thing is the room is small so a smaller A/C unit will work. Perhaps we'll hear a better idea but, presently, I cannot think of one.

 

[crusso1993]

Oh, wait, I wonder if simply putting an exhaust fan in would be enough to alleviate the problem. It would have to be a decent sized one but may work.

 

[Rick.45cal]

Hey sorry I didn’t get a chance to comment yet.

For your CaRX questions the delivery of alkalinity to your tank is directly related to the volume of CO2 injected into the reactor. If you want to increase your alkalinity output for a reactor at pH of 6.6 I would increase my CO2 output and leave my output flow rate the same. Here’s the caveat of the this choice is that the pH in the reactor is going to go lower than previously. I personally run my reactor so that my solenoid doesn’t ever shut off, my setpoint for my APEX to shut off the solenoid is 6.45 (it only prevents my reactor from getting too low and melting my media, should the flow rate stop or slow) and generally the reactor tends to have a daily pH swing of 6.55-6.50. By running this way when I want to increase my output I increase my CO2 bubble rate and I will watch my pH drop in the reactor slightly, I will then test my alkalinity 24 hours later, I try to avoid making adjustments closer than 24 hours apart. It can take a couple days after an adjustment to see if you are slowly drifting up or down so be patient and avoid the temptation to constantly make adjustments if you can.

So you have to think of the reactor this way. You can increase your alk input by increasing the flow rate through the reactor, but you have to increase your CO2 to maintain the same pH in the reactor (it’s processing a higher volume of water since your turned up the flow rate). The BRS video is basically telling you that there are increasing rewards by lowering the pH farther in the CARx. The variable that actually dissolves carbonate and calcium ions is the CO2, so it should be your primary control over how concentrated the effluent is.

I’d avoid adjusting the effluent rate up or down to control your alkalinity, I know it’s tempting because it’s just a dial to twist on the peri pump, but it doesn’t really work that way. (Unless your running a DaStaCo or a reactor that’s based on running at the saturation point of CO2)

 

[Rick.45cal]

So don’t get wrapped up in what other folk’s bubble rate is. Bubble rate doesn’t take into account for bubble size or volume of gas contained within that bubble. Plus the variables of your reactor affect how much CO2 needs to be used to change the pH in the reactor and all of those differences mean that me telling you my bubbe rate is virtually worthless information for your system and tank. It’s an arbitrary measurement based on gas pressure, orifice size and volume of gas delivered at that pressure.

 

[Mshort03]

Hey sorry I didn’t get a chance to comment yet.

For your CaRX questions the delivery of alkalinity to your tank is directly related to the volume of CO2 injected into the reactor. If you want to increase your alkalinity output for a reactor at pH of 6.6 I would increase my CO2 output and leave my output flow rate the same. Here’s the caveat of the this choice is that the pH in the reactor is going to go lower than previously. I personally run my reactor so that my solenoid doesn’t ever shut off, my setpoint for my APEX to shut off the solenoid is 6.45 (it only prevents my reactor from getting too low and melting my media, should the flow rate stop or slow) and generally the reactor tends to have a daily pH swing of 6.55-6.50. By running this way when I want to increase my output I increase my CO2 bubble rate and I will watch my pH drop in the reactor slightly, I will then test my alkalinity 24 hours later, I try to avoid making adjustments closer than 24 hours apart. It can take a couple days after an adjustment to see if you are slowly drifting up or down so be patient and avoid the temptation to constantly make adjustments if you can.

So you have to think of the reactor this way. You can increase your alk input by increasing the flow rate through the reactor, but you have to increase your CO2 to maintain the same pH in the reactor (it’s processing a higher volume of water since your turned up the flow rate). The BRS video is basically telling you that there are increasing rewards by lowering the pH farther in the CARx. The variable that actually dissolves carbonate and calcium ions is the CO2, so it should be your primary control over how concentrated the effluent is.

I’d avoid adjusting the effluent rate up or down to control your alkalinity, I know it’s tempting because it’s just a dial to twist on the peri pump, but it doesn’t really work that way. (Unless your running a DaStaCo or a reactor that’s based on running at the saturation point of CO2)

Ok that all makes sense. In video I do see the benefits of the lower ph (which is why if adjustment needs to be made today I will lower it to 6.5 from 6.6 and then adjust other things from there) but it seems that adding alk could be as simple as turning up effluent? Not discrediting anything you say just offering my view of confusion. Like let's say I never touch effluent again. How low can I go in reactor? Let's say I just increase my bubbles per second, won't the reactor only go down to what the controller is set at? So increasing bubble count only, would simply make it get to or stay at that low setting? Seems as if this puts a roof on my adjustments. (Again not discrediting just offering what I'm thinking) I have no been paying attention to bubble counter at all only reason I'm mentioning x bubbles per second is simply because that's what my regulator reads as measurements.

I'm very thankful you responded it is certainly a great help!

 

[Mshort03]

101? Dang!

Cooling options are limited to A/C, chiller(s) or homemade chiller(s) using a fridge and titanium coil. For what you're doing, I believe the simplest and most cost effective fix is putting the A/C unit in the wall and draing outside like you mention. A good thing is the room is small so a smaller A/C unit will work. Perhaps we'll hear a better idea but, presently, I cannot think of one.

Ya 101. Was like a sauna. A chiller is not an option for me as main cooling because regardless of tank water temp, I don't want room that hot. (Although I will be getting a chiller in a month or two as a safety net for if my ac were to quit in house) I had also considered an exhaust fan but as you stated not sure if that would do job so don't wanna cut hole in exterior of house if not going to be beneficial (plus there would be no incoming air so I feel it would create negative pressure in room and not really exhaust my problem, i.e. heat) the room is small you're right. So I was gunna get the smallest unit I can find and that would hopefully be good. Now cutting hole in wall only thing I can think of is running into issues with studs with having to frame a "window"...but then again I guess I could do all the work from outside the room so that may not actually be that bad. A floor unit is ok but that takes up space which is already limited esp with my current ato setup...32 brute can shared by both tanks. Gotta figure out ato solution to be able to pull water from my water storage container. (Need longer cords, probably gunna have to switch to float valve style over my very loved smart ato :/ )

 

[Mshort03]

..but now I just thought of another thing is that if I have unit in wall in room my garage is going to get blistering hot.
Seems I'm in a bit of a pickle.

...and not the bread and butter kind either cuz I love those. This is one of those weird little pickles that people put on toothpicks at cocktail parties.

 

[Mshort03]

...have I mentioned I'm weird? Lol life is just more fun this way.

 

[crusso1993]

...have I mentioned I'm weird? Lol life is just more fun this way.

Dude... you didn't have to mention it. It's a given considering I get everything you're saying. As the old saying goes, "It takes one to know one!"

Exhaust fan to the attic, if you have one. Put in a louvered door. There are some good sized "whole house" fans. I know because I've installed them.
Another idea is the AC through the wall. You'll have to frame it out but that's easy peasy. Then build an exhaust cover that feeds into a 4" rigid or flexible duct. Then run the duct to a dryer vent that you can simply cut into the an exterior garage wall.
If the room has an exterior wall, put a window in and use the AC unit this way.
Just kind of brainstorming here...

 

[crusso1993]

Thanks for the input @Rick.45cal !

 

[Rick.45cal]

Ok that all makes sense. In video I do see the benefits of the lower ph (which is why if adjustment needs to be made today I will lower it to 6.5 from 6.6 and then adjust other things from there) but it seems that adding alk could be as simple as turning up effluent? Not discrediting anything you say just offering my view of confusion. Like let's say I never touch effluent again. How low can I go in reactor? Let's say I just increase my bubbles per second, won't the reactor only go down to what the controller is set at? So increasing bubble count only, would simply make it get to or stay at that low setting? Seems as if this puts a roof on my adjustments. (Again not discrediting just offering what I'm thinking) I have no been paying attention to bubble counter at all only reason I'm mentioning x bubbles per second is simply because that's what my regulator reads as measurements.

I'm very thankful you responded it is certainly a great help!

We have a differing viewpoint of what the controller’s job is. The controller only monitors my pH, my setpoint is much lower than what the CO2 I inject into the reactor can lower the reactors pH to with the current flow rate. My solenoid stays on 24/7. I only inject enough CO2 for my reactor to reach 6.5 at night and 6.55 in the day. (These aren’t numbers I’ve chosen, it’s just where the reactor has landed to maintain the alkalinity consumption in my tank). My set point to close the solenoid is 6.45, so if something happens, peri pump stops, the line clogs, etc and the flow rate slows or stops the controller will shut off the CO2 solenoid to prevent the pH dropping too low and “melting” the media and FWIW it’s probably far below where my set point is that the media gets mushy).

If your solenoid is turning on and off to maintain your pH then you have another option of just lowering the pH setpoint on the controller. by lowering the setpoint on the controller you are introducing more CO2 into the system.

You can increase the flow rate through the reactor to introduce more alkalinity and calcium, as long as, the reactor can maintain the internal pH with the increased flow rate.

You’ve got a ton of ways to “skin this cat”. You have to remember this is a system at equilibrium and the how much CO2 you introduce is what determines the alkalinity/calcium output. At a certain point you will have your reactor at a very low pH and increasing the output will be your only option for increasing Alkalinity/calcium output but that day is probably a ways off.

For me, I’ll keep slowly lowering the pH in my reactor as needed with tiny needlevalve adjustments until the reactor is running a very low pH then I will consider increasing the effluent rate.

You’re running a very large system and your flow rate may be too small for your demand, but at a pH of 6.6, I think you have a ton of head room left. I personally would lower the pH in the reactor more and concentrate the effluent. I think in the long run it’s more efficient. But that’s just my $0.02

 

[Mshort03]

Dude... you didn't have to mention it. It's a given considering I get everything you're saying. As the old saying goes, "It takes one to know one!"

Exhaust fan to the attic, if you have one. Put in a louvered door. There are some good sized "whole house" fans. I know because I've installed them.
Another idea is the AC through the wall. You'll have to frame it out but that's easy peasy. Then build an exhaust cover that feeds into a 4" rigid or flexible duct. Then run the duct to a dryer vent that you can simply cut into the an exterior garage wall.
If the room has an exterior wall, put a window in and use the AC unit this way.
Just kind of brainstorming here...

No exterior wall on room... the wall unit with vent to outside may be the winner.


Guess after 20k tacking on another 3-400 cant hurt right?


I'm gunna go cry now.

 

[Mshort03]

We have a differing viewpoint of what the controller’s job is. The controller only monitors my pH, my setpoint is much lower than what the CO2 I inject into the reactor can lower the reactors pH to with the current flow rate. My solenoid stays on 24/7. I only inject enough CO2 for my reactor to reach 6.5 at night and 6.55 in the day. (These aren’t numbers I’ve chosen, it’s just where the reactor has landed to maintain the alkalinity consumption in my tank). My set point to close the solenoid is 6.45, so if something happens, peri pump stops, the line clogs, etc and the flow rate slows or stops the controller will shut off the CO2 solenoid to prevent the pH dropping too low and “melting” the media and FWIW it’s probably far below where my set point is that the media gets mushy).

If your solenoid is turning on and off to maintain your pH then you have another option of just lowering the pH setpoint on the controller. by lowering the setpoint on the controller you are introducing more CO2 into the system.

You can increase the flow rate through the reactor to introduce more alkalinity and calcium, as long as, the reactor can maintain the internal pH with the increased flow rate.

You’ve got a ton of ways to “skin this cat”. You have to remember this is a system at equilibrium and the how much CO2 you introduce is what determines the alkalinity/calcium output. At a certain point you will have your reactor at a very low pH and increasing the output will be your only option for increasing Alkalinity/calcium output but that day is probably a ways off.

For me, I’ll keep slowly lowering the pH in my reactor as needed with tiny needlevalve adjustments until the reactor is running a very low pH then I will consider increasing the effluent rate.

You’re running a very large system and your flow rate may be too small for your demand, but at a pH of 6.6, I think you have a ton of head room left. I personally would lower the pH in the reactor more and concentrate the effluent. I think in the long run it’s more efficient. But that’s just my $0.02

You've made many of my concerns clear!
The many ways to skin a cat comment really just reassured me that my thinking of the same thought was correct. I'm going to test water soon and will post results. I see what you're saying and understand your method of adjustment now. So now that you have mentioned you use a peri pump, I assume you run it on the lower end as to be more concentrated but then assuming also less strain thus higher longevity of motor? If so, I'm liking this..