Losing all our Euphyllia and SPS slowly over last 6 months - diatoms or dinos - and could they be to blame?

[AstroMelly]

Which light source setting did you use on that app? Did you purchase one? Looks like we should probably be using blue/white led.

 

[Lavey29]

Which light source setting did you use on that app? Did you purchase one? Looks like we should probably be using blue/white led.

Led full spec

 

[AstroMelly]

Led full spec

I just downloaded it and bought that light setting - I'm getting about 430 par at the water surface so maybe 400 where the water/air interface is - I notice it drops off quickly with distance changes - that is directly under one of our 4 Radion XR15 at 65% AB+ with no diffuser - I wonder if there is some mathematical way of deriving the par in the water given this information.

 

[AstroMelly]

Do you have or can get a microscope?
Check the stuff on the substrate for dinos.
I don't think, imo, the problem is your salt or feeding.
I do see some large leather coral. I may have missed it but, do you run carbon? Leather like to release their toxin in the water column. Carbon will help with that.

I've ordered a microscope today - this one.

Should be here tomorrow - isn't Amazon Prime a wonderful thing?

 

[AstroMelly]

I should also add that I run diffusers and I took par reading with them on and with them off and the difference was minimal like 20 par at the top. However, the diffusers just make the light much more manageable to my eyes and I seemed to get much more even spread in the middle and bottom of the tank. It helped with hot spots too.

I'm seriously considering the diffusers as I am not a huge fan of the 'speccling' that the Radion XR15s produce. I did consider a hybrid LED/T5 fixture but we are going for the minimalist look.

 

[Meista_Flya]

Have you tired any in tank treatments such as chemi clean ?

 

[AstroMelly]

sorry to hear about the losses,

I think the brown stuff in the RO bucket is bacteria from water pipes and is harmless. At least that is what the guest from Acrogardens said on the podcast, Reefbum. I get the same occurrence on my bin and pumps with 4 brands of salt Including TM, doesn’t seem to make any difference.

Do you know what I think you are spot on there - when I last changed my DI resin I ran the RO into a jug as I have found the first 50-100ml output from the DI chamber can still have a high TDS and I do not want that going into the barrel. I was shocked to see that the water was very dirty and I reckon this is from the pipes leading from the RO to the barrel - there is probably about a metre of pipe. So it would seem logical that if there is some bacterial scum on those pipes in my RO/DI unit some of it is making its way into the barrel and perhaps growing there in the warmth. Only thing that doesn't quite add up is why is the RO barrel clean - or perhaps it's not as clean as I thought! I will remove and clean those exit pipes from the RO/DI next time I am changing the resin or making water and report back!

Thanks!

I had Some questions that I thought might be helpful:

what’s your WC schedule?
Do you test for phosphate regularly (at least weekly until stabilized)? I know you feed heavy but with a filter roller I’m sure most of that food is being eaten right away or removed, and true 0 phosphate swings kill lps IME. Personally, without being able to see the tank or know more daily/weekly habits, the tank sounds too clean to me and wondering if this could be seen with low phosphate numbers. Just a guess, I had similar happen to me when using a auto water changer for a while.

All our recent water changes are detailed in the Aquatic Log link in the OP. We were doing about 10-15% fortnightly when we were battling cyano (that was about 6-8 months ago). Since then we have slipped into a more comfortable 15-20% monthly. Have a look at the AL link above - all the params and history since I started using it (maybe 4 months) are there.

Agree that leather can warefare but doubt it will kill LPS in 220g of water, so while worth looking at I doubt this is the culprit. I’d watch the amount of “carbon aggressiveness” with a new tank.

also last note is that death of all those LPS and SPS in under 1 year tank is very common especially the walling species. I’m sure as time progresses your tank will have more success with some of those , but also really recommend aquaculture for higher rate of success overall.

I know! You read about it all the time then all of a sudden it's you!

hope it helps!

Thanks - very helpful post!

 

[AstroMelly]

Have you tired any in tank treatments such as chemi clean ?

Not yet and I would really like to avoid it if at all possible. We beat pink/red cyano when the tank was quite new with good husbandry but it was hard work vacuuming the sand bed every couple of weeks and rinsing the sand until clean. I will take a look with the scope and see if I can identify what it is and then take action. I hope it's not a different brand of cyano back again!!!

 

[AstroMelly]

as for BJD ..... if they have decent flow that will help.... also I recommend re dipping euphyllia into koral MD revive or iodine or a mixture of all three as used in the "KFC dipp" method to try and help get them back and up coming.

I would try that KFC dip but we cannot get ciproflaxin without a prescription in the UK. We did dip the purple hammer last weekend in some doxycycline which I managed to source for a few hours but I do not see it making any difference.

the chemi clean treatment is also anti bacterial as well. so that should help with BJD

I may try it - let's see what the scope shows.

in my established tank I had issues with euphillia not doing well and when I sent out an ICP test it came back I had low iodine I didn't see your ico test but if u did one check ur iodine levels since they take on iodine

Iodine is also low in my tank according to both ICPs - check the OP they are attached. I am going to buy an Iodine test kit now! Thanks!

 

[Meista_Flya]

my apologies I read it said u did the test I just didn't see where you posted the test. 2 test say iodine is good and 1 test say iodine was low. looks like the last test was te ATI dest on October 9th.

I would like everyone else says lower overall intensity of light then I would also remove any and all white light and leave blues only I would increase the flow on the power heads.

now depending on if dynos cyano or regular algae I would NOT do a water change if it's dynos

if cyano clean everything then do a chemi clean treatment for the amount of allotted time the instructions say I thinks it's 48 hours.

if dynos or dinos forget the proper term they likebclean water to which ur showing a decent amount of nitrates and phosphates any more water changes ur cleaning the water to much and giving them an environment to thrive clean water and bright lights is was helps them.

this is wat all helped me and I finally gotten rid of it all. just hopenit doesn't come back. just make sure if ubuse chemi clean to get a bubbler and keep ur skimmer on and just take the cup off to supplement aeration of the tank. I've done a chemiclean treatment on my 310 gallon a few times with tons of corals and never had any issues as long as u aerate and follow instructions and no overdose.

 

[Lavey29]

I'm seriously considering the diffusers as I am not a huge fan of the 'speccling' that the Radion XR15s produce. I did consider a hybrid LED/T5 fixture but we are going for the minimalist look.

My eyes can't live without them and they only minimally lower par too. They do provide more even spread also while eliminating hot spots too. I par checked my tank with and without them on.

 

[Lavey29]

I just downloaded it and bought that light setting - I'm getting about 430 par at the water surface so maybe 400 where the water/air interface is - I notice it drops off quickly with distance changes - that is directly under one of our 4 Radion XR15 at 65% AB+ with no diffuser - I wonder if there is some mathematical way of deriving the par in the water given this information.

I thought you had 3 lights. If you have 4 then you are probably getting good overlap spread so your par numbers will be better then mine with only 2 lights. Perhaps your initial setting intensity is correct then for your tank. The diffusers take away about 20 par on mine. Some people have put their phone in zip lock bag to check under water also.

 

[AstroMelly]

my apologies I read it said u did the test I just didn't see where you posted the test. 2 test say iodine is good and 1 test say iodine was low. looks like the last test was te ATI dest on October 9th.

I would like everyone else says lower overall intensity of light then I would also remove any and all white light and leave blues only I would increase the flow on the power heads.

now depending on if dynos cyano or regular algae I would NOT do a water change if it's dynos

if cyano clean everything then do a chemi clean treatment for the amount of allotted time the instructions say I thinks it's 48 hours.

if dynos or dinos forget the proper term they likebclean water to which ur showing a decent amount of nitrates and phosphates any more water changes ur cleaning the water to much and giving them an environment to thrive clean water and bright lights is was helps them.

this is wat all helped me and I finally gotten rid of it all. just hopenit doesn't come back. just make sure if ubuse chemi clean to get a bubbler and keep ur skimmer on and just take the cup off to supplement aeration of the tank. I've done a chemiclean treatment on my 310 gallon a few times with tons of corals and never had any issues as long as u aerate and follow instructions and no overdose.

I think you might have been looking at the RO ICP test where everything is zero? I will do some investigation with the scope when it arrives, I just hope it’s good enough to ID whatever it is.

 

[AstroMelly]

I thought you had 3 lights. If you have 4 then you are probably getting good overlap spread so your par numbers will be better then mine with only 2 lights. Perhaps your initial setting intensity is correct then for your tank. The diffusers take away about 20 par on mine. Some people have put their phone in zip lock bag to check under water also.

I did consider bagging my phone but I’m not quite due and upgrade!

 

[Lavey29]

I did consider bagging my phone but I’m not quite due and upgrade!

Smart

 

[Tathamet]

I did consider bagging my phone but I’m not quite due and upgrade!

Smart

haha I did the phone in a ziplock and it works ok. the only issue is as soon as the phone goes into the water, the contact from the bag and water seem to lock in the par reading sometimes which is super annoying. You have to pay a subscription to turn off the lock feature.

a safer option and i actually ordered a couple off amazon to test just for this purpose (haven’t tested it yet) is a waterproof phone pouch. The below image isn’t the exact one I ordered but they’re all pretty much the same.

 

[AstroMelly]

haha I did the phone in a ziplock and it works ok. the only issue is as soon as the phone goes into the water, the contact from the bag and water seem to lock in the par reading sometimes which is super annoying. You have to pay a subscription to turn off the lock feature.

a safer option and i actually ordered a couple off amazon to test just for this purpose (haven’t tested it yet) is a waterproof phone pouch. The below image isn’t the exact one I ordered but they’re all pretty much the same.

Nice idea! I’ve got a food vacuum sealer that I’ve never actually used. Might see it’s first job soon!

 

[Tathamet]

Nice idea! I’ve got a food vacuum sealer that I’ve never actually used. Might see its first job soon!

Nice that should work! Useful for getting all the air out too which is what you want anyway.

I had to dunk mine in the tank before closing it to get the air out. That was one part that made me slightly nervous haha.

 

[AstroMelly]

Well I got the scope today and prepared a couple of slides. Here is a video for the dinos - I am pretty sure this swim pattern matches the Amphidinium (large) linked to from the (re)attached PDF (not my work):

Dinoflagellate ID video.

A video of some microorganisms in our aquarium. I believe they are Amphidinium (large cell)

youtube.com

This PDF I found elsewhere on the forum - link - I hope that's ok to repost it here in my thread? There are links to videos in the PDF which is incredibly helpful - any others have any other thoughts? I am fascinated by what I saw - the nematode is cool! Mag was 400x. There may be other dinos in there also but I believe the majority would be the swimmers. I will probably do more analysis as we battle them.

The doc lists this as the least toxic dino of those types covered - the only clue given for treatment is 'may be susceptible to grazing' and we do see our 3 conches going at the 'mat'. Picked up a couple of Mexican turbos today as well but the LFS was short on CUC so we will try again somewhere else in a few weeks. Anyone else got any other tips on these particular dinos? Obviously I will do my due diligence and search around as well.

Another interesting critter dropped after dipping our own frags. We dipped some of our own corals again as we did pick up some new coral today I don't know which piece it dropped from.

Top-down shot of the new arrivals in the clear frag tray. The hammer is from a colony which has been going for many years apparently so we shall see.

We got a great deal actually - the shop we decided to drop in on was an hour's drive away so we don't go there that often but it turns out they were having a 10th birthday sale - 50% off 4 or more pieces! All 4 pieces cost around £85 total.

Here's what looks like a red flatworm under the microscope which came off one of our own corals that we dipped alongside the new ones . New ones only revealed amphipods as far as I could tell.

The corals are from left to right bottom row - Monti Forest Fire Digiata - skeleton looks a little bleached but polyps are well extended now, Meteor Shower Cyphastrea, Ultra Favia and the Green Hammer at the top which we have moved to a hole in a rock - mounted vertically. Edna the Blonde Naso is photobombing along with Stella our female clownfish and in the background is Dubhe the starfish and our Zoa rock. I did not notice what a good photo it was until I went to compare the corals after being in the tank a few hours. I used a clip on filter which I do not use much - maybe I will use it more! All the new stony corals are in the rack about 6 inches from the bottom of the tank - starting them there to allow them to acclimate to the tank/light. I'll probably move them up in a week or two depending on what happens!!!

Cheers guys!

 

[AstroMelly]

I just wanted to update the thread. First thanks to all who provided ideas and feedback, it’s appreciated. Here’s what I have implemented.

1. Changed my lights slightly. I was running AB+ 12 hours a day. I dropped the red, green and both whites by about half. I also upped the intensity from 60% to 70%. I did a 5% jump and then 1% a day for 5 days.

2. We have introduced 7 Nassarias snails, 6 red leg hermits and 2 conch.

3. The final change which was yesterday was we are now running Rowa Phos in a media reactor.

Oh we also did a 20% wc on Friday night as well (vacuumed sandbed). Good news here is that it seems we may not have a Dino issue after all. The jury is out but I think it’s red cyano which has congealed to a brown mat over time. ChemiClean is on order but we will try and beat it back with regular good husbandry first.

So over the last 2 weeks I have been keeping a very close eye on the tank, in particular the new coral we purchased recently. The monti digi forest fire has been slowly declining as we have seen happen with previous montis, the meteor shower cyphastrea has been doing good but started to discolour/peel a little after Friday (moved the frag rack up in the tank for sand cleaning and I think he got too much light). The new torch is doing great. The Favia has shown no change. Old montipora got a H2O2 bath for 30 seconds to rid him of algae growth. He was not showing many polyps before or after but see below.

Now here’s the interesting part. I measure my params every Saturday. Our phosphate is usually around 0.08-0.1 ppm. On Saturday it was 0.11 ppm and I happened to visit the LFS where we bought that batch of coral a couple of weeks ago. Chatting to one of the guys, he said we should try and lower our PO4. They run their SPS systems at 0.01 - 0.03 max. Walked away with a media reactor, pump and some Rowa Phos. Installed it last night and by this morning - 12 hours later - the tank was reading 0.08 ppm PO4.

Been out all day, just got home and the forest fire digi is pushing its polyps pretty darn good! It looks great. Night and day difference literally. I’ll be testing phospahte (and alk) again this evening.

So I just wanted to share this with you. I’m fairly sure that this reduction in PO4 (possibly combined with some of the other changes) has had a positive effect - this is the first positive change in this particular coral since we put it in the tank.

I will be continuing to monitor and test PO4 and I’ll be sure to update further.

Thanks again for your ideas and thoughts!