Looking for advice on next steps after fighting cyano outbreak for months.

[tcwoodrn]

Hi everyone. Sorry this will be long, but I want to give as much information as possible.

I’ve been in the hobby for 15+ years but got back in a year ago after a hiatus with a 55g JBJ AIO cube. Quick equipment overview: ice cap skimmer, algae reactor that runs 8 hrs/day overnight (was 12 dialed back d/t test results), coralife turbo twist UV sterilizer and some pond matrix in the bottom of a media basket. Not currently running anything like GFO or carbon. Current livestock is a pair of clown fish, four chromis, small sailfin tang, midas blenny, six line wrasse, watchman/pistol pair, cleaner shrimp.

I religiously change 10% per week from RODI that is TDS 0 and has validated by ICP test. A few months ago I was doing 20% per week but backed it off when numbers hit target. I have a diverse and good sized CUC. I rinse all food and am careful to not have excess food left over. I nutrient export after every feed using the MP10. There is good flow across the sand bed in all impacted areas.

I’ve had what I think is cyano on my sand bed for about 3-4 months now. I’ve been doing everything I can to not chemiclean as I want to correct the source. I routinely siphon, blow it off, etc but it is back the next day. It covers 90% or more of my exposed sand bed. I say exposed because oddly, there is a spot under my rock arch where it is not present. That spot gets shade and virtually no flow. I have what I thought might be GHA on some parts of my rock. It stays very short and is not very strong. Often it can easily be blown off by a turkey baster. I am wondering if this could be Calothrix.

My nitrates (Hannah HR checker) were routinely 1-3. My phosphate (Red Sea wheel test kit) were consistent 0.02. Both have now hit 0 for 2+ weeks. Ironically this happened after I returned from vacation where my tank had went at least a week and a half without a water change. I’m feeding heavily, I reduced algae reactor hours etc and still cannot get a measurement. I have done 2 ICP tests in the last year, neither of which indicated any problems. My gut feeling is that I have nitrates and phosphates in the tank and they are being used up by nuisance algae, but I could certainly be wrong.

My hammers and torches are struggling, I’ve lost 2 with another heading the wrong way. A few months ago they were booming. My zoas are thriving. My SPS is fine but slow growth.

I have been dosing MB7 and Reef BioFuel for the past week to try to increase biodiversity. I recognize that this will also lower those same nitrate and phosphate levels, but want to be clear that they had already hit zero before I started.

I’m really looking for advice on next steps. I’ve been committed to just holding the course. My tank is less than one year old (10 months) and could possibly lack the biodiversity it needs. I have not seen any worsening or improvement in several months. Other than the eyesore of the algae, the biggest thing I notice is that my hammers and torches are not happy.

Sorry if this is all over the place. I appreciate any advice.

 

[slingfox]

If someone is sick there is no shame in taking some medicine to get better. I understand the attraction of trying to fix problems the "natural" way but in the end you should weigh the pros and cons of allowing the tank to continue to suffer vs. the effect of dosing a product.

If you want an alternative to Chemiclean you may want to look into UltraLife Red Slime Stain Remover.

 

[Court_Appointed_Hypeman]

I would add a live rock from another system with a ton of stuff living on it personally.

This is only based on my anecdotal experience and would be my move. You may have a different outcome.

 

[tcwoodrn]

Tonight look’s different. Maybe cyano and Dino

 

[Dan_P]

Hi everyone. Sorry this will be long, but I want to give as much information as possible.

I’ve been in the hobby for 15+ years but got back in a year ago after a hiatus with a 55g JBJ AIO cube. Quick equipment overview: ice cap skimmer, algae reactor that runs 8 hrs/day overnight (was 12 dialed back d/t test results), coralife turbo twist UV sterilizer and some pond matrix in the bottom of a media basket. Not currently running anything like GFO or carbon. Current livestock is a pair of clown fish, four chromis, small sailfin tang, midas blenny, six line wrasse, watchman/pistol pair, cleaner shrimp.

I religiously change 10% per week from RODI that is TDS 0 and has validated by ICP test. A few months ago I was doing 20% per week but backed it off when numbers hit target. I have a diverse and good sized CUC. I rinse all food and am careful to not have excess food left over. I nutrient export after every feed using the MP10. There is good flow across the sand bed in all impacted areas.

I’ve had what I think is cyano on my sand bed for about 3-4 months now. I’ve been doing everything I can to not chemiclean as I want to correct the source. I routinely siphon, blow it off, etc but it is back the next day. It covers 90% or more of my exposed sand bed. I say exposed because oddly, there is a spot under my rock arch where it is not present. That spot gets shade and virtually no flow. I have what I thought might be GHA on some parts of my rock. It stays very short and is not very strong. Often it can easily be blown off by a turkey baster. I am wondering if this could be Calothrix.

My nitrates (Hannah HR checker) were routinely 1-3. My phosphate (Red Sea wheel test kit) were consistent 0.02. Both have now hit 0 for 2+ weeks. Ironically this happened after I returned from vacation where my tank had went at least a week and a half without a water change. I’m feeding heavily, I reduced algae reactor hours etc and still cannot get a measurement. I have done 2 ICP tests in the last year, neither of which indicated any problems. My gut feeling is that I have nitrates and phosphates in the tank and they are being used up by nuisance algae, but I could certainly be wrong.

My hammers and torches are struggling, I’ve lost 2 with another heading the wrong way. A few months ago they were booming. My zoas are thriving. My SPS is fine but slow growth.

I have been dosing MB7 and Reef BioFuel for the past week to try to increase biodiversity. I recognize that this will also lower those same nitrate and phosphate levels, but want to be clear that they had already hit zero before I started.

I’m really looking for advice on next steps. I’ve been committed to just holding the course. My tank is less than one year old (10 months) and could possibly lack the biodiversity it needs. I have not seen any worsening or improvement in several months. Other than the eyesore of the algae, the biggest thing I notice is that my hammers and torches are not happy.

Sorry if this is all over the place. I appreciate any advice.

Possible side track advice. Is water change the only method you are using to maintain trace elements?

 

[tcwoodrn]

Possible side track advice. Is water change the only method you are using to maintain trace elements?

Right now yes because my tests and ICP tests have not showed much lacking. Any theories related to trace elements? I’m open to testing anything.

 

[tcwoodrn]

If someone is sick there is no shame in taking some medicine to get better. I understand the attraction of trying to fix problems the "natural" way but in the end you should weigh the pros and cons of allowing the tank to continue to suffer vs. the effect of dosing a product.

If you want an alternative to Chemiclean you may want to look into UltraLife Red Slime Stain Remover.

I’ve used chemiclean once in an old tank and had no issues. I’m more concerned with identifying the cause because if I chemiclean I don’t want it to come back.

 

[Court_Appointed_Hypeman]

On the concern of resorting to chemiclean, I have some thoughts.

Now this is all conjecture based on a small grasp on the bilogy here, so this is only food for thoufght, but...

The reason I personally avoid the chemical-cides, is the idea that all of these organisms, once introduced, continue to exist in our tanks micro biology until the tank is made absolutely hostile and inhospitable to the specific organism. To my knowledge, the dinos are always there, and its about stopping them from gaining such an advantage that they become visible to us. Chemiclean might do exactly that, knock the advantage of the organisms abundance so that it loses its foothold, or it might make the environment outright hostile to the organism to the point where it is extinct within your tank. Whichever it does, there may be unseen conciquences to the affect on the environment, that disrupts the food chain either leaving the tank vulnerable to another outbreak because whatever is going on in the microbiology exists, and it may be reintroduced, or it just allows something else to take over.

My approach has been keeping that in mind, and relying on the idea that I am just waiting on the food chain to catch up to put it in check, which seems to absolutely work out for me, only going so far as to make small environmental changes to upset the organisms dominance and possibly facilitate its conpetition.

You may be past that point, if you don't have other gradua changed to make, like introducing UV or an oxydator, or carbon that won't help the ugly you have flourish, or some sort of magic CUC member you are missing that will help keep it in check as you siphon some out so its spread slows.

You may have never had the opportunity to allow it to disappear by letting the biome develope, or maybe you just straight up are missing other uglies that exist in most systems that needs to be introduced from another tank.

Either way, if you are pretty much through all of the less substantial solutions, either having tried, are not willing to, or dislike introducing them. I think its totally okay to go for the chemical cure. Just keep in mind it may be a new fight ahead.

Whichever decision you make is the correct one, because its a journey, it could lead you straight to your end goal, or the next fight.

At that length of time, I wouldn't feel like I failed in some way to go for the chemical cure, just keep in mind, if it goes away there may very well be fights and uglies to come.

 

[Court_Appointed_Hypeman]

Its probably also worth getting an ID on it with a microscope I had dinos from my 3 week mark through to 4 month, the thing that turned the tide having done almost the entire checklist to deal with it, was adding an 8lb rock that was covered in garbage algaes

 

[tcwoodrn]

Its probably also worth getting an ID on it with a microscope I had dinos from my 3 week mark through to 4 month, the thing that turned the tide having done almost the entire checklist to deal with it, was adding an 8lb rock that was covered in garbage algaes

I had Dinos around that same time period. Did an ICP test that showed silicates in my RODI. I upgraded my RODI and added UV and haven’t seen them sense.

When I diagnosed them last time I did the paper towel strain test.

 

[Dan_P]

Right now yes because my tests and ICP tests have not showed much lacking. Any theories related to trace elements? I’m open to testing anything.

No theories just some thoughts.

@taricha and I have come to the same conclusion about macro algae, specifically in a sump. Cyanobacteria and probably other organisms proliferate in sumps when macro algae are stressed. Stress can cause leaky cell walls and the release of all sorts of organic compounds which serve as bacteria and algae nutrients. Stressors can be too little or too much light, inorganic nitrogen too low for the intensity of light or depleted trace elements like iron, molybdenum, manganese and cobalt. The latter can be supplied by bacteria as a vitamin. When I look at the wide coverage of your nuisance organisms, I wonder where they are getting so much food that they can live in such dense communities.

A big stab in the dark answer is that the nuisance organisms are being fed by stressed micro algae (notice the jump from macro to micro) that share the surface and the stressor might be depleted trace elements. Since there seems to be measurable PO4 and NO3, I am ruling out nutrient depletion as a cause.

So that’s the thinking.

 

[tcwoodrn]

No theories just some thoughts.

@taricha and I have come to the same conclusion about macro algae, specifically in a sump. Cyanobacteria and probably other organisms proliferate in sumps when macro algae are stressed. Stress can cause leaky cell walls and the release of all sorts of organic compounds which serve as bacteria and algae nutrients. Stressors can be too little or too much light, inorganic nitrogen too low for the intensity of light or depleted trace elements like iron, molybdenum, manganese and cobalt. The latter can be supplied by bacteria as a vitamin. When I look at the wide coverage of your nuisance organisms, I wonder where they are getting so much food that they can live in such dense communities.

A big stab in the dark answer is that the nuisance organisms are being fed by stressed micro algae (notice the jump from macro to micro) that share the surface and the stressor might be depleted trace elements. Since there seems to be measurable PO4 and NO3, I am ruling out nutrient depletion as a cause.

So that’s the thinking.

Trace elements are something fairly new to me as they just weren’t the big focus when I was heavy into reefing the first time and ICP tests were not popular and possibly didn’t exist.

Here are the results of my last ICP test in mid May.

 

[jpas]

My tank is coming upto to 6 years old. It is 500g with a large sump and 40g fuge. Around year 2 I started to develop cyano. I tried all of the usual cures and it kept coming back. About an year ago I started to use Tropic Marine NP Balance and have not had any cyano since.

 

[Dan_P]

Trace elements are something fairly new to me as they just weren’t the big focus when I was heavy into reefing the first time and ICP tests were not popular and possibly didn’t exist.

Here are the results of my last ICP test in mid May.

The test results (If this analysis was obtained from ICP analysis.com, the numbers may be off) indicate none of the elements that are important to algae were detected though the nuisance algae is growing, indicating there must be a tiny amount present. There are many products for adding trace elements. I use CheatoGro to support growth of the macro algae Ulva and use one daily dose once per week. I found the recommended dose harmed my snails.

 

[Rocktron1]

I just admit the nuisance algae I had recently that only covered sand bed disappeared when I does dr Tim's refresh and waste away as per the website formula for cyno

Sand has cleared right up but not sure for how long, so could become expensive to continually does bacteria to compete with the other algaes

 

[CallMeChris]

Does any of it go away at night then reappear after lights come on? I ask due to your observation about the lack of algae under the rock.

 

[tcwoodrn]

Does any of it go away at night then reappear after lights come on? I ask due to your observation about the lack of algae under the rock.

No. I noticed that it did back when I had dinos but the stuff is still there at night. I don’t have a microscope but the paper towel test worked to ID dinos in the past. I did it yesterday and nothing formed so my best guess is it’s not dinos

 

[itsdarrow]

does UV filter work on cyano?

 

[taricha]

There's certainly a mix here. It's not a bloom of only or mostly one thing.
2nd pic here... a clear mixture of colors, textures and growth shapes.

Tonight look’s different. Maybe cyano and Dino

If this is my system, I'm thinking about ways to really shift it away from the current photosynthetic nuisance domination of the surfaces.
I'm probably thinking about stuff like a 3 day blackout or ramping up a carbon dose.

 

[tcwoodrn]

does UV filter work on cyano?

I don’t believe so