Live rock vs Dry Rock vs Holey Rock??

[IntrinsicReef]

I want to voice an experience and a question on the live rock vs dry rock debate. I started rehabbing this 480 gallon aquarium 2.5 years ago. It was converted from freshwater to salt, and I was tasked with making it a reef. The rock was all limestone "holey" rock and I suggested we remove some and add back some more traditional reef rock. The owner said no to the idea and we moved forward. I was a little nervous of the results, but here is the tank today. We have had none of the algae or dinos or anything people correlate with dry rock. I have used limestone holey rock as base rock filler since the 90s but this is the first tank with nothing but, and I was admittedly nervous. My question has been to the "live rock" crowd. What beneficial bacteria come in on live rock that wouldn't come in on, say a frag plug. Some anaerobic bacteria deep in the rock would be my only guess.
Part of working with clients is using equipment or materials I wouldn't normally use. And I am lucky to be able to compare these variables and constants on different systems. I just wanted to share this unique situation.

 

[tzabor10]

How nice

 

[GARRIGA]

Goes to show no hard and fast rules and I’m a big believer in live rock but will try next build with dry and seed the tank with live rubble.

No clue what bacteria diversity exists in live rock but perhaps those who have done tests such as Biome might. Believe they sell live rubble and sand guaranteed to be diversified yet absent pathogens.

 

[IntrinsicReef]

Goes to show no hard and fast rules and I’m a big believer in live rock but will try next build with dry and seed the tank with live rubble.

No clue what bacteria diversity exists in live rock but perhaps those who have done tests such as Biome might. Believe they sell live rubble and sand guaranteed to be diversified yet absent pathogens.

I haven't set up a system with Live Rock in 15 years. I was very excited about engineered rock ( no pests) and have always had good results. That said, my personal system at home is live rock that is all 20+ years old. Also, Marco rock has seemed to grow algae longer than other rocks I have tried. But for me, they all end up covered in coral and I am a little confused by this debate raging.

 

[Gumbies R Us]

I started with dry rock as well. Sure, I have some algae issues, but nothing that isn't manageable!

 

[GARRIGA]

I haven't set up a system with Live Rock in 15 years. I was very excited about engineered rock ( no pests) and have always had good results. That said, my personal system at home is live rock that is all 20+ years old. Also, Marco rock has seemed to grow algae longer than other rocks I have tried. But for me, they all end up covered in coral and I am a little confused by this debate raging.

All topics will have debates because none have the same experiences or exposure to other’s experience.

 

[Waters]

I also started with all dry rock...had no algae issues in almost two years....actually haven't set up a tank with live in over 15 years. Both live and dry can drive a successful tank. The idea that you HAVE to use live to avoid issues is a myth.

 

[stoney7713]

I've started tanks with live rock and dry rock. It's more of a matter of how fast do you want a stable system. Sometimes the uglies can be avoided on dry starts sometimes it's not. But everything can become seeded with bacteria, it's just a matter of time.

There's a guy on here, probably several, that makes their own rocks. So as to have the exact size and shapes he wants. Looking at you @tbrown

I also like the hitchhikers, good and bad, from live rock, so I will always include live rock on my future builds.

 

[IntrinsicReef]

I've started tanks with live rock and dry rock. It's more of a matter of how fast do you want a stable system. Sometimes the uglies can be avoided on dry starts sometimes it's not. But everything can become seeded with bacteria, it's just a matter of time.

There's a guy on here, probably several, that makes their own rocks. So as to have the exact size and shapes he wants. Looking at you @tbrown

I also like the hitchhikers, good and bad, from live rock, so I will always include live rock on my future builds.

I don't know if I completely agree with the speed of the "uglies" theory. Sure, with short transit time and ideal shipping conditions, live rock can create an instant reef. Although, I have received many orders of live rock that had significant sponge and invert die off that had to be cured for months. Even then, the decomposing organisms seemed to fuel algae. Live rock seemed to be more inconsistent to me.
As for the hitchhikers. I've dealt with crabs that grew huge and mantis shrimp on live rock. As a service tech, I see the systems only a couple times a month and catching them or even identifying is an issue. And try explaining to a client that you need to disassemble a tank on their dime to catch a fish eating invert. Those are my experiences at least.

 

[Malum Argenteum]

I'm not sure the diversity of bacteria would be a reason to get live rock. The diversity is of multicellular critters such as sponges/clams/dusters/macroalgae/etc.

Also, and I'm not sure what the selection of LR is like these days (mine is all 20+ years in captivity), but at least in the distant past wild LR was much more nicely and variably shaped, vs the relative uniformity of mined dry rock.

 

[IntrinsicReef]

I'm not sure the diversity of bacteria would be a reason to get live rock. The diversity is of multicellular critters such as sponges/clams/dusters/macroalgae/etc.

Also, and I'm not sure what the selection of LR is like these days (mine is all 20+ years in captivity), but at least in the distant past wild LR was much more nicely and variably shaped, vs the relative uniformity of mined dry rock.

Yes. Sponges, tube worms and other filter feeders are important. But it seems like there are limited species that have long term longevity or reproduction in our tanks. I'm just not sure I have seen introduction of organisms from live rock be more beneficial than introducing some coral frags on plugs or small rocks from an established reef tank.

 

[stoney7713]

I don't know if I completely agree with the speed of the "uglies" theory. Sure, with short transit time and ideal shipping conditions, live rock can create an instant reef. Although, I have received many orders of live rock that had significant sponge and invert die off that had to be cured for months. Even then, the decomposing organisms seemed to fuel algae. Live rock seemed to be more inconsistent to me.
As for the hitchhikers. I've dealt with crabs that grew huge and mantis shrimp on live rock. As a service tech, I see the systems only a couple times a month and catching them or even identifying is an issue. And try explaining to a client that you need to disassemble a tank on their dime to catch a fish eating invert. Those are my experiences at least.

So sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, same with avoiding things with dry rock. Though in my experience it still has been shorter with live rock, even with die off.

Maybe you should quarantine live rock shipments before placing in the customers display. Some people do that for their own tanks. Working for someone else building a tank doesn't hold true to 95% of us so it's a bit different with your own tank.

I have also not built 100's of reef tanks, my experience is limited to 3,

One was mostly dry, I seeded the sump and display with 10% cycled rock, still had a horrible case of uglies. Used MB7, other products, etc.

One was all fresh ocean live rock shipped damp, delayed with UPS, had sponges and what not due off, two weeks basting it daily and daily or every other day water changes. I was good after 14 days. Straight to stocking.

One was a hybrid, 60% live, 40% mix of dry and manmade reef rock. It was smooth, I started stocking it immediately and the dry rock quickly went through colonization.

 

[Malum Argenteum]

Yes. Sponges, tube worms and other filter feeders are important. But it seems like there are limited species that have long term longevity or reproduction in our tanks. I'm just not sure I have seen introduction of organisms from live rock be more beneficial than introducing some coral frags on plugs or small rocks from an established reef tank.

That's not been my experience. For years after introducing wild Florida rock (in the 1990s), the populations of various cool encrusting critters was pretty much limited to those rocks.

 

[jabberwock]

I am a big fan of Real Ocean Live Rock, hitchers and all! There are so many variables involved between all of these systems, I also believe there is no hard and fast direction that solves all or most problems. In the OP's case, 480 gallons is in another class altogether than a lot of us can imagine. That size of a tank is beyond my experience, so suffice to say, congrats, it looks amazing!

 

[IntrinsicReef]

That's not been my experience. For years after introducing wild Florida rock (in the 1990s), the populations of various cool encrusting critters was pretty much limited to those rocks.

That may be. I have very limited experience with Florida rock. I bought a round of Tampa Bay Saltwater rock around that same time period and struggled with some hitchhikers. I tend to think of food sources and reproduction methods as the limiting factors for organisms in our tank. If those conditions are met, the organisms will proliferate. But maybe not in the case of some cryptic sponges and other encrusting organisms. Maybe they need a certain matrix to thrive on.

 

[IntrinsicReef]

I am a big fan of Real Ocean Live Rock, hitchers and all! There are so many variables involved between all of these systems, I also believe there is no hard and fast direction that solves all or most problems. In the OP's case, 480 gallons is in another class altogether than a lot of us can imagine. That size of a tank is beyond my experience, so suffice to say, congrats, it looks amazing!

No hard and fast rules indeed. That was a big point of this post. I have heard multiple hobby authors and pundits attribute all sorts of ailments to dry rock, and I just haven't seen that connecting thread. These are people I respect with decades of experience. So, I wanted to get the community's take on it. So far, it seems mixed

 

[jabberwock]

No hard and fast rules indeed. That was a big point of this post. I have heard multiple hobby authors and pundits attribute all sorts of ailments to dry rock, and I just haven't seen that connecting thread. These are people I respect with decades of experience. So, I wanted to get the community's take on it. So far, it seems mixed

I do want to make the differentiation between "live rock" and "real ocean live rock". There is a world of difference...

 

[stephanjupillat]

1002640_Microbiome_Report

aquabiomics.com

DNA results from 6 month 240g tank. Dry Marco rock and AF sand. Did not use their bacteria. Seeded with Tampa bay live sand and a few rocks.

It was 3 medium sized rocks so no real hitchhikers, and I removed any snails from sand. I can’t remember weights but it was their package deal, largest one that could ship via overnight. I didn’t want the air freight and have to pick up.

Worth every penny. Tank went from dead to mature in no time. Highly recommend.

I also added AF life source a few times. I currently dose Tim’s eco balance and Biodigest once a week, alternating it weekly.

 

[IntrinsicReef]

1002640_Microbiome_Report

aquabiomics.com

DNA results from 6 month 240g tank. Dry Marco rock and AF sand. Did not use their bacteria. Seeded with Tampa bay live sand and a few rocks.

It was 3 medium sized rocks so no real hitchhikers, and I removed any snails from sand. I can’t remember weights but it was their package deal, largest one that could ship via overnight. I didn’t want the air freight and have to pick up.

Worth every penny. Tank went from dead to mature in no time. Highly recommend.

I also added AF life source a few times. I currently dose Tim’s eco balance and Biodigest once a week, alternating it weekly.

I like the idea of this hybrid method. I have not tried it, but I have cycled tanks starting with corals. I add dry rock and some kind of nitrifier inoculant ( sand or bottled). Then immediately add coral. I start adding fish a couple weeks later. It has worked well. There are little stages of invert population booms without the fish to eat them. Micro stars, pineapple sponges, copepods, amphipods. It is really amazing to see the tank come to life without large predators.

 

[schooncw]

Lifelong hobbyist and many years in the aquatic industry. Nothing but live rock for me