LACK OF BASICS KEEPING NEWBIES AWAY FROM REEFING

[00Barracuda00]

As a new guy to the game, this forum has been a great starting point. But I think it's important to take that with a grain of salt and understand it for what it is for me: a starting point.
I ran out and bought a used Reefer350 a few weeks after joining the forum, and it sat dry in my garage for almost 6 months. I was very excited and motivated, but the very first thing I learned on this forum is that I didn't know anything.
So I watched, lurked, and read years old flame threads of heated debate (some of those were great btw).


The most important piece was still missing for me though. I didn't have anyone I could actually have a conversation with about what I wanted to accomplish. It's nearly impossible here to begin a conversation about putting together a fish list without the entire thing getting derailed by QT demands and discussions about required meds to have on hand.

So I found my own LFS contacts. Luckily, my go to dude makes most of his money on building/maintaining fancy tanks for waiting rooms at doctor's offices and the like, so everything he orders for me is dirt cheap. I've gained more confidence in the hobby just from speaking to him. Why? Because it's confirmation of what I've read here. This is huge. I can't stress this enough. Think about it logically... How confident are you in pronouncing a word you've only ever read? It's the same with our hobby. How confident can you be in something that you've only ever seen in one place online?


I would like to add that I am not in any way denigrating the people who push meds or mandatory QT steps. I spent all of 8 hours frantically trying to find the right meds to help out my first fish after it displayed signs of brook 5 days after being added. I knew I had to move heaven and earth to save this stupid fish, because it was important to me. This forum was an absolute godsend for help and understanding. This place saved my wife's favorite fish, and helped me understand what I was dealing with. In the end, that's what matters. Not the outcome, but the understanding. That's where R2R rocks!.

 

[vetteguy53081]

If you equate reefkeeping (or simply aquarium keeping) to learning a language then it becomes abundantly clear that you cannot simply go from nothing to everything all at once. It takes time to understand the basics and progress your way through until you are somewhat fluent and comfortable with the subject matter. There are so many examples of people that want a reef, yet have no fish keeping experience. They simply want to jump right in, pay what's necessary, and expect to have a stunning system. Reefing and the everything-now mindset of our society do not mesh well. The most important things (in my opinion) to successfully keeping a reef are 1) knowledge/learning, and 2) patience. Neither of those can be picked up on a whim. I always suggest a person start with fish only (likely freshwater) so they can learn about nutrient cycling, organismal biology, proper acclimation, and maintenance. If someone is not willing to take such simple steps to gain experience and progress through some logical steps (and maybe determine if having an aquarium is even something they enjoy), then why would I point them to the complex world of reefkeeping?

We need to point prospective reefers back to books, back to gaining experience, back to experienced fish/reef keepers instead of pointing them to the newest must-have gadgets. This is not elitist mentality as some might suggest. It is responsibility and should be used more often.

pretty much following the rules of FRESHWATER not realizing there is a whole new concept and expense here

 

[McPuff]

pretty much following the rules of FRESHWATER not realizing there is a whole new concept and expense here

Not sure what you mean here...

 

[vetteguy53081]

Not sure what you mean here...

With freshwater , you can quickly set up and stock. Many new to salt hobbyists do not understand the cycling/waiting period and are under impression the same rules apply as with freshwater set up and stocking

 

[McPuff]

With freshwater , you can quickly set up and stock. Many new to salt hobbyists do not understand the cycling/waiting period and are under impression the same rules apply as with freshwater set up and stocking

Gotcha! I agree completely. Was just pointing out that freshwater gives them a chance to understand those basic concepts. But you hit on a very important point!

 

[Bpb]

Even with an advanced stony coral tank there is very little need for anything requiring a screen or a microchip. People now are more impressed with tech and devices than they are with coral.

 

[cvrle1]

Part of the issue today is that people in general want to get info handed to them on a silver platter, dont want to spend time learning, reading, and finding out as much as possible about topic in hand. How many times did we see "which is the best light I should buy", "which skimmer is best" and so on type of a post without any background on what they are trying to achieve. Before, people would do some research and decide what are important things for them, what are the differences between 5 lights fixtures or 5 skimmers. Then they would come and ask out of these 5 which ones would be best for me, as I want to achieve this or that. Now, they just expect people to hand them the best answer based on nothing, and this is what they end up getting: most expensive equipment, as people associate expensive with best.

Then they will pass that same recommendation to other new members as gospel, and it just keeps going from there. To make things worse, they will get really mad when someone calls them out and tells them they are wrong (usually these are people that actually know what they are doing) or they will get mad when you say that their $1000 light fixture with all bells and whistles will grow corals just the same as units that cost 1/2 the price. People dont like hearing that they are wrong, and that they wasted money, so they get defensive and try to prove that they are right, even when they are not. Thee same folks will consider themselves experts because they have apex, and $2000 lights, and $1000 sump, and all the fancy matching plumbing, and because they are able to keep what they consider a healthy tank for 1-2 years.

And this may be unpopular opinion, but I see this more on R2R than on RC for example. I think reason being is that on the other site people will speak their mind, they dont care if they hurt someone's feelings, and will call out people when they are completely wrong, and sharing incorrect info. On R2R, there is this aura of trying to make everyone feel welcome, which doesnt work when you have such large number of people that think they are experts.

 

[WillH]

Aquarium keeping, from my understanding is about maintaining stable water chemistry, a reasonable amount of par to keep desired animals and finally, having enough flow. How you get there or the manual versus controlled processes you have are totally up to the end user. Most importantly it should be what makes you happy and keeps your animals healthy, it is a hobby after all...not a job.

 

[mikenestle]

I always recommend to people wanting to start in the hobby to start in freshwater. Don't even think about starting a reef tank until you have a majority of fish that are 2 years old.

The things you need to learn like basic water changes are much easier with freshwater. Just looking at fish and determining if they are healthy is better to learn with freshwater. Just because it's easier to treat disease when you make a mistake.

When you are ready for saltwater make your freshwater tank a QT tank and get a basic set up.

I don't feel like anybody should be putting fish through a QT and dosing drugs when they can't tell how that fish should be acting.

 

[flchamp89]

What would be interesting is to discuss what basics regardless of fresh or saltwater that help promote success in our members opinions. I originally was going to discuss some of the similarities in my earlier post but deleted them. We focus on the differences but I believe there's more similarities than differences. Regardless of the type of water in the glass box there's still many different ways to increase ones likehood for a win.

 

[Gaspipe]

Swotching to any dosing methods would have maybe given me 10 percent better colors but that would have trippled the running cost and time to care for the tank.

I'm a sucker for the best bang for your buck! I have zero SW experience and trying to learn. I have NOT even begun to look into dosing but that line right there confirms to me that I am in no rush to research that anytime soon.

 

[Gaspipe]

If I may add my thoughts (I have no experience, read my disclaimer). From what I read these new LED lights last 10 years (am I correct?). I would rather invest a little more for a set of lights that are adequate for future use and their functionality make things easier. I plan on having a mixed reef, with Zoos, LPS and Anemones to begin. But my goal will be to one day to have SPS (hopefully before 10 years). So my reasoning is spend the extra $200-300 now on better lights and not upgrade later on.

Hopefully my reasoning is right.

 

[cvrle1]

If I may add my thoughts (I have no experience, read my disclaimer). From what I read these new LED lights last 10 years (am I correct?). I would rather invest a little more for a set of lights that are adequate for future use and their functionality make things easier. I plan on having a mixed reef, with Zoos, LPS and Anemones to begin. But my goal will be to one day to have SPS (hopefully before 10 years). So my reasoning is spend the extra $200-300 now on better lights and not upgrade later on.

Hopefully my reasoning is right.

Majority of LED units will last about the same amount of time these days. This goes from cheap CBBs to expensive ones like AIs and so on. True, there could be a difference between a CREE and Bridgelux LEDs, but all LEDs can fail prematurely no matter the manufacturer. Good thing about LEDs (again in general) is that they are fairly easy to replace if they die.

 

[SDK]

Great idea for a topic Brad and I'm enjoying the discussion. My two cents...

I have probably read almost every book and magazine published for both the SW and FW side of the hobby. I have cases of them. I'm probably more upset about the internet killing the best magazines than I am about the books. The good magazines had more up to date information and made for a great reference library. I can't be the only one who spent hours poring over them every time a new project popped into my head.

Having said that, the information is still out there in the internet age, and most likely it is quicker and easier to find than it used to be. I also think there are plenty of paths to success in both old and new school approaches.


This hobby will always confer an advantage to those who enjoy reading and researching. I look at this forum every day and see multiple posts with completely avoidable problems. Some are almost cringeworthy, in that it's obvious the poster didn't even google a caresheet on something, or do the most basic FAQ type research. I always try to help these people, and many others do here as well. Having said that, I find it difficult to pin the blame on any big generational shifts or the way information sharing has changed. The fault lies directly with those moving ahead without even bothering to get a solid base of fundamental knowledge...

The other big issue I see recurring over and over is people looking for shortcuts in a hobby that usually punishes those attempts. Variations of " I can't QT, I don't test parameters, tell me about this fish I just bought, etc", make up a significant portion of the problems I see here.

It is also probable that we are seeing the "squeaky wheels" and not a true representation of the more successful reef keepers who come here to "read more and say less".

 

[Bpb]

If I may add my thoughts (I have no experience, read my disclaimer). From what I read these new LED lights last 10 years (am I correct?). I would rather invest a little more for a set of lights that are adequate for future use and their functionality make things easier. I plan on having a mixed reef, with Zoos, LPS and Anemones to begin. But my goal will be to one day to have SPS (hopefully before 10 years). So my reasoning is spend the extra $200-300 now on better lights and not upgrade later on.

Hopefully my reasoning is right.

On paper your reasoning is correct but it’s imperfect in application. Heat, wavelength (color), moisture, driver quality, fan quality, and dumb luck will determine how long an led panel lasts. Reef LEDs aren’t made the same way an outdoor 15 watt led flood light is. The phosphors in those are much more stable and they’re run off home electricity.

An aquarium LED for saltwater purposes will run much higher wattage, with diodes that just aren’t as stable in their longevity. Most UVA and violet diodes in the 390-420nm range will sport only a 5,000 hour average lifespan. A far cry shorter from the 50,000 hour lifespan of a Cree X series blue or white diode. Fans and drivers as well as their heat management will further impact that.

So looking at a bulb and saying, meh, that has a lousy 5,000 hour lifespan, I can pay $200 more and get a top shelf led fixture that will last 10x as long, isn’t exactly a perfect correlation.

Again. Your reasoning on paper is sound, which is why I have switched all of my home bulbs out for led equivalents, and my outdoor floods are going on 9 years now. Aquarium panels don’t work the same. But...at the end of the day, I think your experience level will dictate what you buy more than anything. And much the opposite of what it once was, LEDs seem to be the top choice among beginner hobbyists (and some experts obviously), with t5ho and metal halides seeming to be hanging around among mostly experienced sps keepers primarily.

 

[Gaspipe]

Thank you so much for taken the time to share! Perhaps another strategy could be: buy a cheaper light that will support zoos, lps and upgrade to a more powerful light later on in the hobby. I think I wouldn't buy an SPS till after 3 or so years experience. Perhaps by that time I will be done adding fish and could convert the QT into a Frag Tank and repurpose the original LED. Originally I was looking at AI Prime, Hydra 26HD or a NanoBox. Not married to any of these just read good reviews and would have been enough for anything I was looking to grow. But now I have to rethink it as you brought to my attention not to expect a light to last 10k years.

On paper your reasoning is correct but it’s imperfect in application. Heat, wavelength (color), moisture, driver quality, fan quality, and dumb luck will determine how long an led panel lasts. Reef LEDs aren’t made the same way an outdoor 15 watt led flood light is. The phosphors in those are much more stable and they’re run off home electricity.

An aquarium LED for saltwater purposes will run much higher wattage, with diodes that just aren’t as stable in their longevity. Most UVA and violet diodes in the 390-420nm range will sport only a 5,000 hour average lifespan. A far cry shorter from the 50,000 hour lifespan of a Cree X series blue or white diode. Fans and drivers as well as their heat management will further impact that.

So looking at a bulb and saying, meh, that has a lousy 5,000 hour lifespan, I can pay $200 more and get a top shelf led fixture that will last 10x as long, isn’t exactly a perfect correlation.

Again. Your reasoning on paper is sound, which is why I have switched all of my home bulbs out for led equivalents, and my outdoor floods are going on 9 years now. Aquarium panels don’t work the same. But...at the end of the day, I think your experience level will dictate what you buy more than anything. And much the opposite of what it once was, LEDs seem to be the top choice among beginner hobbyists (and some experts obviously), with t5ho and metal halides seeming to be hanging around among mostly experienced sps keepers primarily.

 

[samnaz]

I only discovered the reef keeping hobby 3 years ago. I got almost all my information from books - new, old, very old, I read them all. My first tank was as simple, basic and low tech as it gets, and it’s still going strong today. Starting out with the basics, taking it slow, leisurely reading, learning, and enjoying the process along the way is the best way to ensure long term dedication and success in this hobby, if you ask me.

Fast forward to now.... books are a thing of the past, and this forum is where everyone’s journey starts! I hope we can all be accommodating to new and confused and/or overwhelmed reefers.

 

[cvrle1]

On paper your reasoning is correct but it’s imperfect in application. Heat, wavelength (color), moisture, driver quality, fan quality, and dumb luck will determine how long an led panel lasts. Reef LEDs aren’t made the same way an outdoor 15 watt led flood light is. The phosphors in those are much more stable and they’re run off home electricity.

An aquarium LED for saltwater purposes will run much higher wattage, with diodes that just aren’t as stable in their longevity. Most UVA and violet diodes in the 390-420nm range will sport only a 5,000 hour average lifespan. A far cry shorter from the 50,000 hour lifespan of a Cree X series blue or white diode. Fans and drivers as well as their heat management will further impact that.

So looking at a bulb and saying, meh, that has a lousy 5,000 hour lifespan, I can pay $200 more and get a top shelf led fixture that will last 10x as long, isn’t exactly a perfect correlation.

Again. Your reasoning on paper is sound, which is why I have switched all of my home bulbs out for led equivalents, and my outdoor floods are going on 9 years now. Aquarium panels don’t work the same. But...at the end of the day, I think your experience level will dictate what you buy more than anything. And much the opposite of what it once was, LEDs seem to be the top choice among beginner hobbyists (and some experts obviously), with t5ho and metal halides seeming to be hanging around among mostly experienced sps keepers primarily.

Great info! One thing I would just add, and this is topic that a lot of folks dont mention in regards to LEDS, LEDs will lose output over time. They are not different than any other light source (T5, MH, etc) I think one of the reasons this isnt talked about as much as it should is because folks tend to change their light fixtures every several years, so there isnt enough time for significant power loss to occur.

 

[Hermie]

I'm still a fan of books, but it's so much harder to get them than forum posts. Most Libraries don't carry the books I am looking for... Or they are half way around the world in a university library in Australia. I also like to find scientific papers, but those are hit or miss on availability as about half are behind paywalls.

Google Scholar is decent... Wikipedia is about 4 out of 10 in my "book" given that some of the cited references can be followed up for more information, but those references, like I mentioned, are not always available. Honestly it seems most books are about $40 or more (upwards of $250) to get the online version or whichever is available, and I only want a little bit of information about a specific species I am looking at, making that purchase entirely unreasonable.

It's interesting... assimilating information from R2R, vendor websites, digital magazines, I try to stay away from youtube Info but I will do an odd search here and there, and there are a few trusted channels I will reference on occasion. Things could definitely be better if paper books and scientific research was free to the "general public." Afterall, what I am I gonna do with that information? Keep a fish alive longer? It's not exactly a trade secret that I am planning to exploit lol.

And FTR, google search and youtube search is almost irrelevant considering how hard their algorithms try to push you in one direction.

 

[Midrats]

I used to really look forward to reading the latest articles from Julian Sprung, Michael Paletta, Dana Riddle, Bob Fenner, and all the other greats that contributed to SeaScope Aquarium Newsletter back in the Eighties and Nineties. I miss periodicals. At least I still have my Coral Magazine subscription.