Is this diatoms or a type of dinoflagellate?

[taylormaximus]

So I've been scouring the internet for answers, and found lots of pictures of people's tanks with seemingly the same problem, but everyone says it's something else. So I'm hoping I can post my specific situation and someone will know what's going on.

So I've had diatoms, my rocks were golden brown for a few months when I started out, and then that eventually turned into neon green coralline covering the rocks (my tank is around 8 months old for reference). Then the green hair algae took over everything on the rocks.

But through that I've had a persistent photosynthetic rust coloured dusting all over my sand. You can clean the sand but it'll be back by the next day, and within a few days it'll be as bad as it was before you cleaned it. It was almost strictly on the sand, so I thought it might be cyano. I tried chemiclean and it actually seemed to make it worse? And at the same time I noticed it started growing on the rocks in spots.

So this is either some really aggressive diatoms or really nonaggressive Dinos... Maybe both? On the rocks it seems to blow off like dust, but on the sand it kind of clumps the sand together a bit, but still comes apart easily. There's also no bubbles trapped in it, although the sandbed itself does have bubbles collecting under the surface that float up when disturbed. Here's a few pictures:

It looks almost identical to the diatoms I started out with, but it seems very aggressive, and in spots where it gets very thick (which is rare) it does look slightly stringy or mucusy, but again no bubbles.

So my question is first of all does anyone know if this is diatoms or Dinos? It kind of has characteristics of both. And also is there any type of test to tell the difference between them without a microscope? The layer is usually so thin it's hard to grab a sample of it. And then what can you do about it? I hope someone knows something about this.

Some tank facts:
32 gallon, running since February
Phosphates: around 1.5 ppm, they've been very consistent even after using phosguard
Nitrates: have been flat 0 since the day I introduced green hair algae, which there's plenty of, another issue for another post.
I have almost no white light running, and fairly decent flow, though definitely less around the sandbed.

I'm willing to share any other tank details or run tests if it will help with IDing this. Thanks for your help!

 

[gbroadbridge]

So I've been scouring the internet for answers, and found lots of pictures of people's tanks with seemingly the same problem, but everyone says it's something else. So I'm hoping I can post my specific situation and someone will know what's going on.

So I've had diatoms, my rocks were golden brown for a few months when I started out, and then that eventually turned into neon green coralline covering the rocks (my tank is around 8 months old for reference). Then the green hair algae took over everything on the rocks.

But through that I've had a persistent photosynthetic rust coloured dusting all over my sand. You can clean the sand but it'll be back by the next day, and within a few days it'll be as bad as it was before you cleaned it. It was almost strictly on the sand, so I thought it might be cyano. I tried chemiclean and it actually seemed to make it worse? And at the same time I noticed it started growing on the rocks in spots.

So this is either some really aggressive diatoms or really nonaggressive Dinos... Maybe both? On the rocks it seems to blow off like dust, but on the sand it kind of clumps the sand together a bit, but still comes apart easily. There's also no bubbles trapped in it, although the sandbed itself does have bubbles collecting under the surface that float up when disturbed. Here's a few pictures:

It looks almost identical to the diatoms I started out with, but it seems very aggressive, and in spots where it gets very thick (which is rare) it does look slightly stringy or mucusy, but again no bubbles.

So my question is first of all does anyone know if this is diatoms or Dinos? It kind of has characteristics of both. And also is there any type of test to tell the difference between them without a microscope? The layer is usually so thin it's hard to grab a sample of it. And then what can you do about it? I hope someone knows something about this.

Some tank facts:
32 gallon, running since February
Phosphates: around 1.5 ppm, they've been very consistent even after using phosguard
Nitrates: have been flat 0 since the day I introduced green hair algae, which there's plenty of, another issue for another post.
I have almost no white light running, and fairly decent flow, though definitely less around the sandbed.

I'm willing to share any other tank details or run tests if it will help with IDing this. Thanks for your help!

The simplest way to identify is to get hold of a student grade microscope, take some pix and post them here.

Once identified you will be able to devise a treatment plan.,

 

[vaguelyreeflike]

It visually looks closer to diatoms, but I suspect its the beginning of dinos due to your parameter results. I would get some Neo Nitro or a similar nitrogen supplement to bring up your nitrates, and do some 25-50% water changes to bring the phosphates down.

Do you run carbon? If so, what brand and how often do you change it?

What food(s) do you feed and how often?

The phosphate level could either be from overfeeding with flake/pellet foods or possibly from using poor-quality carbon.

There is really no way to be 100% at this point without a microscope though.

 

[taylormaximus]

It visually looks closer to diatoms, but I suspect its the beginning of dinos due to your parameter results. I would get some Neo Nitro or a similar nitrogen supplement to bring up your nitrates, and do some 25-50% water changes to bring the phosphates down.

Do you run carbon? If so, what brand and how often do you change it?

What food(s) do you feed and how often?

The phosphate level could either be from overfeeding with flake/pellet foods or possibly from using poor-quality carbon.

There is really no way to be 100% at this point without a microscope though.

That's the problem, there's plenty of nitrate in the system, it's just all being absorbed by the GHA. I've heard the rocks can absorb nitrates as well but I'm not sure if that's true or not. But I'm hesitant to dose nitrates because I feel like that would only further feed the hair algae making it even harder to get a reading.

I ran carbon up until I started using phosguard and seachem Razor, so it's probably been around 1-2 months without any carbon.

I feed very light, probably less than half a cube of mysis shrimp a day. I don't feed pellets regularly.

 

[michealprater]

does not look like dinos. dinos have long strings and little bubbles trapped inside the algae.

 

[apb03]

Definitely time to get a microscope, only way to know for sure. It does look like Dinos to me though. I also had a similar outbreak at the 8-month mark and did not have the bubbly snot you would expect with Dinos, nor did I have nutrient exhaustion. Once I looked at the scope, it was most definitely Dinos, though.

My guess is you probably have Amphidinium or Porocentrum.

 

[gbroadbridge]

does not look like dinos. dinos have long strings and little bubbles trapped inside the algae.

There are many many strains of Dinos that do not have that stringy appearance, including the ones that give your corals colour

 

[taylormaximus]

Definitely time to get a microscope, only way to know for sure. It does look like Dinos to me though. I also had a similar outbreak at the 8-month mark and did not have the bubbly snot you would expect with Dinos, nor did I have nutrient exhaustion. Once I looked at the scope, it was most definitely Dinos, though.

My guess is you probably have Amphidinium or Porocentrum.

I'm looking into getting on for sure. How were you able to treat your Dinos?

 

[apb03]

I'm looking into getting on for sure. How were you able to treat your Dinos?

I spent a lot of time failing, but finally ended up with a solution that was basically:

- 3-day blackout
- UV sterilizer plumbed in a closed loop in the display
- Multiple daily sandblasts with a utility pump
- Diatomaceous filter to assist with removal (Marineland polishing canister)
- Dr Tim's Dino procedure without the blackout

Eradication took about 10 days.

 

[vaguelyreeflike]

That's the problem, there's plenty of nitrate in the system, it's just all being absorbed by the GHA. I've heard the rocks can absorb nitrates as well but I'm not sure if that's true or not. But I'm hesitant to dose nitrates because I feel like that would only further feed the hair algae making it even harder to get a reading.

I ran carbon up until I started using phosguard and seachem Razor, so it's probably been around 1-2 months without any carbon.

I feed very light, probably less than half a cube of mysis shrimp a day. I don't feed pellets regularly.

If it is testing at 0 then there is not enough nitrates in the system, there may be plenty but when things are absorbing you need to dose to counter it. The hair algae will still absorb it but it’s like live plants where you need to keep dosing it until it’s at a testable level. Without testable nitrates you won’t get rid of the Dino’s permanently.

The phos needs to come down with water changes if PhosGuard isn’t pulling it.

 

[Lavey29]

If it is testing at 0 then there is not enough nitrates in the system, there may be plenty but when things are absorbing you need to dose to counter it. The hair algae will still absorb it but it’s like live plants where you need to keep dosing it until it’s at a testable level. Without testable nitrates you won’t get rid of the Dino’s permanently.

The phos needs to come down with water changes if PhosGuard isn’t pulling it.

I agree with this but water changes do very little for phosphate reduction because it binds to rock and sand then continually leaches out. 0 nitrates leads to a variety of problems too.

 

[taylormaximus]

I spent a lot of time failing, but finally ended up with a solution that was basically:

- 3-day blackout
- UV sterilizer plumbed in a closed loop in the display
- Multiple daily sandblasts with a utility pump
- Diatomaceous filter to assist with removal (Marineland polishing canister)
- Dr Tim's Dino procedure without the blackout

Eradication took about 10 days.

Wow 10 days is pretty impressive for Dinos! Do you think that process would also eradicate diatoms? Cause if so I could probably skip the ID and go straight to fixing it.

 

[apb03]

Wow 10 days is pretty impressive for Dinos! Do you think that process would also eradicate diatoms? Cause if so I could probably skip the ID and go straight to fixing it.

I don't think it will do much for the Diatoms, but in the case of Dinos, you are ok with Diatoms. Your goal really is to clear out the Dinos and make way for other organisms to take over instead. Once the Dinos are gone, some Phosguard will clear up the silicates and in turn, the Diatoms if you have them.

Ya, 10 days were quite nice, but it most definitely was the nuclear option, and boy was it an expensive route.

 

[taylormaximus]

I don't think it will do much for the Diatoms, but in the case of Dinos, you are ok with Diatoms. Your goal really is to clear out the Dinos and make way for other organisms to take over instead. Once the Dinos are gone, some Phosguard will clear up the silicates and in turn, the Diatoms if you have them.

Ya, 10 days were quite nice, but it most definitely was the nuclear option, and boy was it an expensive route.

I'm wondering if you could effectively use phosphate to basically identify if it's diatoms or Dinos? My theory is that diatoms thrive in high phosphate, but dinos thrive in low phosphate. So if I'm able to lower phosphate and the bloom gets worse, then it's probably dinos, but if it starts to disappear then it's more likely diatoms. Should that work or am I missing something?

 

[gbroadbridge]

I'm wondering if you could effectively use phosphate to basically identify if it's diatoms or Dinos? My theory is that diatoms thrive in high phosphate, but dinos thrive in low phosphate. So if I'm able to lower phosphate and the bloom gets worse, then it's probably dinos, but if it starts to disappear then it's more likely diatoms. Should that work or am I missing something?

Once established, Dinos also consume phosphate.

One treatment for Dino's is to raise Silicate in order to encourage Diatoms which outcompete the Dinos.