Is MarcoRock the Enemy?

[Tavero]

Lastly - is it possible for "dry" based rock mined from a hillside to have bound phosphate? Sure. One can easily toss it in a bucket of water for a day or two and test. If there is, then simple steps can be taken to remove the phosphate.

That brings me to another point. Back when we took wagons to school the "live" was pulled from the ocean, tossed in a boat, then on a dock and them maybe or maybe not on a holding tank... no lights. Then shipped damp, not wet and not overnight. You or your LFS had to take it and "cure" it in a tub with a skimmer for a week or 6 to get rid of all of the die off before using it in a new tank anyway. I am talking about buckets of nasty gunk getting skimmed off. "Dry rock" was less hassle.

Just a year ago I bought freshly imported live rock for a new tank. It was shipped damp like it was done with all live rock for decades here in Germany. My tank was stable in 2 weeks even though the rock was neither cured nor cleaned by the importer or reef shop.

You only run into issues if the rock dries out. Won't happen if it is transported in a bag from the ocean to your door in just 3-4 days

 

[BeanAnimal]

First if all you americans couldn't get your hands on real live rock. In Europe we never had this problem because there never was an import ban. It's also similar priced as dry rock here. No respectable shop would sell cures dry rock as live rock here.

FWIW - "American" is proper noun.

Secondly, you appear to be misinformed. We "Americans" had access to "real" rock for decades (and still do) both imported from afar and harvested from local waters.

In any case, Europe is not in some mystical rift where south pacific (or other imported) rock just materializes there differently than it does anywhere else in the world.

Moreover, don't confuse "import bans" with export bans.

Lastly, the point was that "live rock" has changed a good bit over the last 3 decades in context to what is available and how it is shipped.

There also are a lot of differences. You won't get animals like boring clams, peanut worms ect to populate your dry rock no matter how long you keep it wet. A lot of oceanic animals don't propagate in tanks.

Certainly - it comes with plenty of unwanted stuff too.. both beside the point. But if you think that those animals will not populate "dry" base rock as it matures, you are also misinformed. It is just rock. There is nothing magic about where it comes from. Dry reef rock was once wet reef rock.

I am not here to argue which is better. I don't care. Successful aquariums can (and do) utilize either or both and each has pros and cons.

Have a wonderful day.

 

[KrisReef]

You forgot the punchline! I have certain expectations from your posts.

The only thing I came up with was not appropriate for a family site

 

[BeanAnimal]

You only run into issues if the rock dries out. Won't happen if it is transported in a bag from the ocean to your door in just 3-4 days

But you have no idea if the rock has dried out prior to shipping, or how long it has been out of the ocean, on a dock, etc. Cure, don't cure, observe for hitchhikers, dump in the tank day one, etc. You are free to use whatever rock and method makes you happy. I am not here to debate which is "better". Again, countless successful aquariums have been started with one or the the exclusively or a combination of r both. In the terms of "time" there may be a few months of difference in maturity but it is all just rock... some of it not even aragonite and not porous enough to have ANYTHING but surface life.

 

[TardWrangler]

I am not sure what that means. This is not an argument for dry base rock vs live, but you are building a system thats length should be measured in years or decades and worried about a few weeks or months. "Dry" rock becomes "live" rock the moment you get it wet and will continue to mature over weeks and months. While rock is porous (some more than others) most of the life is on or near the surface.

There are countless successful systems of all sizes started with dry base rock. In fact in the until the early 2000's most people couldn't get their hands on real "live rock" and even then most couldn't afford it.

What? Live rock was available well before 2000 and it was readily available and very cheap. You could open any hobby magazine and it was nothing but ad after ad offering up different rocks straight to your door for dirt cheap prices. Local LFS had plenty on hand everywhere I ever went

You could buy live rock in the late 80’s

 

[BeanAnimal]

What? Live rock was available well before 2000 and it was readily available and very cheap. You could open any hobby magazine and it was nothing but ad after ad offering up different rocks straight to your door for dirt cheap prices. Local LFS had plenty on hand everywhere I ever went

You could buy live rock in the late 80’s

Hi - read what I posted again

It was available but most hobbyists couldn't get their hands on it or had any clue what it was until it became a popular option in the early 2000's (maybe very late 90's in some areas). Prior to that most serious SW keepers used used wet/dry trickle filters and bio-balls with UGF or RUGF filters and some fiddled with Walt Smith started (I think) in 95. I think in the 80's the only rock (at least east coast) was Florida (tampa bay likely) rock. I don't ever remember seeing it in any tanks or LFS though until late 90's and even then most systems that I was exposed to (dozes of properties in the NC/SC area and some FLA) used dry rock and wet/dry.

 

[Tavero]

FWIW - "American" is proper noun.

Secondly, you appear to be misinformed. We "Americans" had access to "real" rock for decades both imported from afar and harvested from local waters.

You wrote earlier most people didn't have access to live rock before. Now you write people did have access. What is it then?

I didn't write you "americans" because Europe is some mystic wonderland, but because americans seem to have a misconception about live rock due to its rarity in their country.
The rarity seems to be the reason, cured dry rock may be sold in America as live rock and only buying Oceanic Live Rock™ gets you the real deal. Then there is Life Rock™ which is simple uncured dry rock. Overall some kind of naming scam, used to confuse the customer, if you ask me.

 

[TardWrangler]

You wrote earlier most people didn't have access to live rock before. Now you write people did have access. What is it then?

I didn't write you "americans" because Europe is some mystic wonderland, but because americans seem to have a misconception about live rock due to its rarity in their country.
The rarity seems to be the reason, cured dry rock may be sold in America as live rock and only buying Oceanic Live Rock™ gets you the real deal. Then there is Life Rock™ which is simple uncured dry rock. Overall some kind of naming scam, used to confuse the customer, if you ask me.

Just a point to add in: it’s not even rare or uncommon until very recently.

For a very long time it was the way and everyone and their momma offered live rock

 

[TardWrangler]

Off topic: live rock was, and is the best way to kick off a saltwater aquarium hands down

The new methods of Marco/dry is a disaster for this hobby due to the very nature of high turnover with new hobbyists coming and going and the shortcomings of dry rock. Live coral based rock has a built in success factor that isn’t found with these new methods

These hobbyists are getting set up to fail on average and only the most determined and skillful will join the ranks of becoming a lifelong hobbyists

 

[BeanAnimal]

You wrote earlier most people didn't have access to live rock before. Now you write people did have access. What is it then?

Both of my statements were clear unless you wish to be literal for the sake of fueling an argument. General availability and use of LR did not take off until the very late 90's early 2000's here in the US. Maybe a bit sooner in Germany for some people but was still not adopted by the general hobby. It was "cheap" in relation to today but was still expensive in context to the time. It was not widely shipped and most LFS did not carry it.

I didn't write you "americans" because Europe is some mystic wonderland, but because americans seem to have a misconception about live rock due to its rarity in their country.

I think the irony here is your misconception.

Again. "Americans" is a proper noun. I see you consistently capitalize "Europe" and "Europeans". Maybe check your capital "A" key, it seems a bit faulty.

 

[BeanAnimal]

These hobbyists are getting set up to fail on average and only the most determined and skillful will join the ranks of becoming a lifelong hobbyists

The "setup for failure" is not the rock. It is the advice (and need for instant gratification) that prevails these days. There are numerous methods and paths to success, each with pros and cons. I would (in most cases) not advocate against using all (or at least some) LR if given the choice and budget.

 

[RedReefer]

I have three 5 gal buckets of used marco rock. Been in storage for 4 years. It was replaced with live rock.

 

[TardWrangler]

Both of my statements were clear unless you wish to be literal for the sake of fueling an argument. General availability and use of LR did not take off until the very late 90's early 2000's here in the US. Maybe a bit sooner in Germany for some people but was still not adopted by the general hobby. It was "cheap" in relation to today but was still expensive in context to the time. It was not widely shipped and most LFS did not carry it.


I think the irony here is your misconception.

Again. "Americans" is a proper noun. I see you consistently capitalize "Europe" and "Europeans". Maybe check your capital "A" key, it seems a bit faulty.

You’re wrong. I was in the trade and selling rock heavily in 2000. Your timeline is wonky

 

[BeanAnimal]

You’re wrong. I was in the trade and selling rock heavily in 2000. Your timeline is wonky

Please read again... you sold LR "heavily" in 2000. I just (again, 2nd time) said that is when LR use started to become mainstream to those who could afford it.

Late 80s? Never saw the stuff. Were some people in coastal areas using it? Sure, I guess if you lived in southern Florida and had an LFS that collected it or got it from Tampa. Early/mid 90's - still wet/dry. I lived in Myrtle Beach - the LFSs that had SW did not have LR. The large displays at restaurants that could afford expensive displays typically didn't even have it either. I knew a resort owner in Hilton head that built a huge display in his bar and one in his home that had LR and we were all in awe at the fact, including the LFS owner in Myrtle Beach. The systems were road trip worthy. This would have been maybe 94 give or take.

I am honestly not sure what the argument here is.

 

[TardWrangler]

I understand what you’re saying. But you’re implying it was a new thing, when it wasn’t

When I started, it was WELL after many, many people were doing it, for a long time

When I was selling it, we were shipping into every state to LFS in most cities so it was widely available. I was part of one of many companies doing it

Rock was a big thing throughout the 90’s

 

[BeanAnimal]

Did TBS start selling rock in 85 or 86? Does it matter? Did the LFS in central Montana get its first shipment of LR LR in 1989 or 2001?? Again, most people in the early/mid 90's that got setup still did so with wet/dry not LR and LR where available was expensive relative to the time.

This back and forth is ridiculous. The general points that I made stand unless you want to be obtuse and argue a year or two on one side or the other for the sake of being "right". I suppose that is more attractive than reading for context and understanding the underlying point.

Enjoy the thread.... I am out.

 

[Cell]

You will be back.

 

[Tavero]

Both of my statements were clear unless you wish to be literal for the sake of fueling an argument. General availability and use of LR did not take off until the very late 90's early 2000's here in the US. Maybe a bit sooner in Germany for some people but was still not adopted by the general hobby. It was "cheap" in relation to today but was still expensive in context to the time. It was not widely shipped and most LFS did not carry it.


I think the irony here is your misconception.

Again. "Americans" is a proper noun. I see you consistently capitalize "Europe" and "Europeans". Maybe check your capital "A" key, it seems a bit faulty.

First you are being unclear with your statements and then you are accusing me for fueling an argument when I inquire about your position on it. I wasn't even the only one to call you out on it. An I've seen this in repeated posts by you. Maybe you should check how you write your posts instead of accusing other members.

Live rock wasn't available just a bit earlier in Europe. It was used before even HQI in 1960 were invented. Since then it was the way to set up a reef tank. Dry rock and specifically artificial rock only got available recently. That's the reason reefers here don't associate live rock with anything else except when it comes from the ocean without drying out.

Also, are you actually offended that I accidentally spelled your fellow countryman without capital letter? It was likely autocorrect anyway. Don't you think there are more important things to argue about?

 

[AKreuzer]

Off topic: live rock was, and is the best way to kick off a saltwater aquarium hands down

The new methods of Marco/dry is a disaster for this hobby due to the very nature of high turnover with new hobbyists coming and going and the shortcomings of dry rock. Live coral based rock has a built in success factor that isn’t found with these new methods

These hobbyists are getting set up to fail on average and only the most determined and skillful will join the ranks of becoming a lifelong hobbyists

This was the point I was driving for but wanted to share my experience and tests as the hobbiest feeling the pain.

Thank you for your perspective

 

[Serpentman2024]

I disagree with you.
First if all you americans couldn't get your hands on real live rock. In Europe we never had this problem because there never was an import ban. It's also similar priced as dry rock here. No respectable shop would sell cures dry rock as live rock here.

There also are a lot of differences. You won't get animals like boring clams, peanut worms ect to populate your dry rock no matter how long you keep it wet. A lot of oceanic animals don't propagate in tanks.
Also if the rock is populated with the correct bacteria right from the start, it will compete more successfully with undesirable bacteria and algae.

I have seen it again and again. Tanks that have been started with live rock are running with less issues and are stable faster.

This reminds me of how tanks were started "back in the day". I've tried the dry rock route. Although much less expensive and more environmentally friendly, starting with a completely sterile blank slate has been more of a challenge that with established ocean rock. Granted you risk hitchhikers with ocean rock, I'm of the belief that a lot of those are inevitable, even with strict quarantine. Like everything in this hobby, to each their own. Although, I'll probably continue to supplement with dry rock as filler here and there, I will be very reluctant to ever start another system with 100% dry rock.