Is it the reef tank or reefer which really matures ?

[Ballyhoo]

This came up in a different thread. is it really a reef tank which matures and stabilizes? Or is it the reefer? I guess I really wanna know like how a tank stabilizes. or maybe it really does bc its the reefer who grew up. There doesn't seem to be a a straight answer. I hear things like coraline is an indicator , but then when I ask about Coraline, it's not supposed to be that impactful on the tank.

 

[NkSde]

Little column a little column b I think.

As we mature we tinker either less or with more purpose as well as chemistry settling and inputs become outputs more regularly and scheduled

 

[Gumbies R Us]

I think it's both. As our tank grows, we, as reef keepers, continue expanding our knowledge about our reef tanks.

 

[Sophie"s mom]

As others have said, a bit of both for sure! As our tanks go thru a maturity/stability process, we are learning along the way how to better keep things on an even keel so to speak. Truthfully, I don't think we ever stop learning.

 

[fish farmer]

This came up in a different thread. is it really a reef tank which matures and stabilizes? Or is it the reefer? I guess I really wanna know like how a tank stabilizes. or maybe it really does bc its the reefer who grew up. There doesn't seem to be a a straight answer. I hear things like coraline is an indicator , but then when I ask about Coraline, it's not supposed to be that impactful on the tank.

It's both, but it is imo a difficult measure.

I see brand new reefers putting "easy sps" into fresh tanks with the thought if I follow this formula I will succeed. Maybe they have a better skill set and it works, they did their research and set up the proper environment.

FWIW, my tank is about 14 years old, but I don't keep sps, some LPS do great, some do not, some zoas do great, some do not. Lighting, flow, proximity to other corals, nutrients, as well as other parameter swings likely play a role in what grows in my tank, but I generally don't chase numbers.

 

[Mschmidt]

reef tanks mature: rock stop leaching or absorbing, rather maintaining nutrient levels. Bacteria colonies level out. tank inhabitants adjust to the new environment. Equipment breaks in. among other things

Reefers mature: worry less about "ideal" whatevers (parameters, flow, light brand,...) and hit the mean between what they can provide and what the tank needs. learn better husbandry practices. learn the specific needs of their tank vs. some archetypal reef tank. worry less about what others think and enjoy their tank the way they like it.

 

[exnisstech]

Both IMO but I know some older people that act like children so some people never mature which means the tank most likely will not either.
The best way I have found to gain stability is to pick a method and follow that path not straying to try other methods after a month or two because results aren't what the person desires. I was just like many when I started off. I read about this and that and he said she said so I would try this and that. Everything was a mess for the first could of years. My most succesful tank to date finally came to be when I chose a path and stuck with it. I chose simple. That tank ran on water changes and kalk but it didn't happen in 6 months. This was shortly before to broke the tank down after 7years

Most of what was in that tank is here now. Again I chose simple. Cryptic fuge with an ATS in the sump, 2 part manually dosed and an occasional water change. This tank was filled in March and is doing pretty well. These are opposite ends of the tank

IME live rock really helps to bring stability to a young tank sooner.
This is the sump of the tank above

Another example started Feb 2023 and just started coming together at the 1 year mark. Simple as well. Very minimal water changes just to clean detritus. I dose all for reef and have a fleece roller.

But if course we can't have success without failure. This tank has been running 4-5 years and was awesome but I got bored and changed out the rock and added new dry rock. I got a bunch of gha so I used Flux rx to get rid of it. Then I got cyano so I used chemi clean. Then the gha returned so I rinse and repeat. I decided the gha wasn't as bad as the cyano so I've been dealing with that for the last 14 months all because I wanted to change things up.
One of many manually cleanings, fun stuff. I'm tempted to tear it down and start over but feel the need to keep on. Maybe it's my penace for straying from the path I had chosen

Sorry this ended up being longer than expected and I ramble but maybe some one starting off can take something positive away.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Interesting discussion.

Here's a more focused question.

Many folks say to not put (sps, anemones, whatever) in a month old tank.

If we took 10 highly experienced reefers that know how to care for the exact organism, and asked them to set up a reef tank and put in that organism at the one month stage, would it thrive?

I contend yes, more often than not.

What exactly is so far out of the expert aquarist control that the coral will not thrive?

I don't think we have an answer. bacterial speciation, blah, blah blah. Do we really think that the exact bacteria speciation is what makes corals not thrive? Why do we think that? How many experts have tried? A newbie getting advice on setting up a tank from the lfs is not a suitable test case, IMO.

I certainly could be wrong, but I've not heard of anything that evolves over a 6 month period that makes me think a coral would go from failing to thriving that could not be controlled by the aquarist.

 

[Ballyhoo]

Interesting discussion.

Here's a more focused question.

Many folks say to not put (sps, anemones, whatever) in a month old tank.

If we took 10 highly experienced reefers that know how to care for the exact organism, and asked them to set up a reef tank and put in that organism at the one month stage, would it thrive?

I contend yes, more often than not.

What exactly is so far out of the expert aquarist control that the coral will not thrive?

I don't think we have an answer. bacterial speciation, blah, blah blah. Do we really think that the exact bacteria speciation is what makes corals not thrive? Why do we think that? How many experts have tried? A newbie getting advice on setting up a tank from the lfs is not a suitable test case, IMO.

I certainly could be wrong, but I've not heard of anything that evolves over a 6 month period that makes me think a coral would go from failing to thriving that could not be controlled by the aquarist.

but they talk about stability and maturity of a tank. What does that mean?

 

[NkSde]

I like that thought I think it parallels what others have said well. Maybe our tinkering and focus becomes more fine tuned as we know what we need for our livestock. I know setting up my 40 gallon was a lot different than setting up my first 20 gallon planning, execution, and timeline wise.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

but they talk about stability and maturity of a tank. What does that mean?

I know they do. I'm wondering if it means anything other than the scary unknown. Like falling off the edge of the map.

 

[X-37B]

It all boils down to the reefers experience/methods.
Stability can be had from day one.
A mature tank just comes with time. In two years you can easily have a fully mature system, imo.
My current ext 170 for example is 3 months old. I have had corals in the system since week two.
I currently have 20+ hard corals and 8 fish and I would call it a stable system as corals are growing.
It will be fully mature in 2-3 years and by then the whole system will need a good trim.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Maybe manufacturers reading this will come out with a new product line: "instant mature tank". 5 ml per gallon once a day for a week, and the tank is ready!!!

 

[X-37B]

Maybe manufacturers reading this will come out with a new product line: "instant mature tank". 5 ml per gallon once a day for a week, and the tank is ready

Funny.
Manufacturers beware!
We sort of already have it. Its called live rock, lol. Nothing else needed if you know how to maintain a system.
In a couple weeks, its not mature, but its good to go.

 

[Ballyhoo]

Funny.
Manufacturers beware!
We sort of already have it. Its called live rock, lol. Nothing else needed if you know how to maintain a system.
In a couple weeks, its not mature, but its good to go.

OK, but even after almost 4 months half of my coral are just kind of just hanging on day by day not really changing. I really don't know what I could do different. There's one thing I could get a par meter and check the par. I don't know how big of a difference that would make. I've been told so many different things about par. Keep it lower keep it higher. I just keep it kind of medium low for example at about 30% full power of what the LED can do. It's an integrated LED that came with the red sea tank. I think I'm just pretty much I've gotten to the point more recently that I'm just not tinkering. I'm just gonna let it be and as far as the LED goes I'm probably gonna keep it on medium mellow for now. Maybe raise it just a little bit, but that's all.
I have noticed, since I lowered my LED from really bright down to medium low I'm having much less dino and cyano issues. Those things are really, not a problem anymore. I'm afraid if I blast LEd I'll get more dinos etc

also, somebody on one of these forums posted a thread, how much more success they had when they lowered their LEDs

 

[Reefer Matt]

It is both at first. As you gain experience you know what you are looking at when viewing the status of the tank. There is no magic maturity scale that deems when a tank is ready for the next step. All you can rely on is other reefers’ experiences to guide you until you make your own journey. As explained before, an experienced Reefer can make shortcuts. But when I do, I always have a contingency, like another fully established tank to fall back on if the livestock don’t look right.

And as a side note, even when a tank and the Reefer are mature, losses will continue to happen. Livestock are perishable items, and they even perish on the most experienced of us. (You just may not hear them admit it).

 

[Drewbacca]

Both IMO but I know some older people that act like children so some people never mature which means the tank most likely will not either.
The best way I have found to gain stability is to pick a method and follow that path not straying to try other methods after a month or two because results aren't what the person desires. I was just like many when I started off. I read about this and that and he said she said so I would try this and that. Everything was a mess for the first could of years. My most succesful tank to date finally came to be when I chose a path and stuck with it. I chose simple. That tank ran on water changes and kalk but it didn't happen in 6 months. This was shortly before to broke the tank down after 7years

Most of what was in that tank is here now. Again I chose simple. Cryptic fuge with an ATS in the sump, 2 part manually dosed and an occasional water change. This tank was filled in March and is doing pretty well. These are opposite ends of the tank

IME live rock really helps to bring stability to a young tank sooner.
This is the sump of the tank above

Another example started Feb 2023 and just started coming together at the 1 year mark. Simple as well. Very minimal water changes just to clean detritus. I dose all for reef and have a fleece roller.

But if course we can't have success without failure. This tank has been running 4-5 years and was awesome but I got bored and changed out the rock and added new dry rock. I got a bunch of gha so I used Flux rx to get rid of it. Then I got cyano so I used chemi clean. Then the gha returned so I rinse and repeat. I decided the gha wasn't as bad as the cyano so I've been dealing with that for the last 14 months all because I wanted to change things up.
One of many manually cleanings, fun stuff. I'm tempted to tear it down and start over but feel the need to keep on. Maybe it's my penace for straying from the path I had chosen

Sorry this ended up being longer than expected and I ramble but maybe some one starting off can take something positive away.

Everything about that post, including the post itself, (which ended up being more than you first set out to do)..lol..represents a real reefing journey..
... multiple tanks.. multiple years.. multiple mistakes.. but throughout it.. a love for the hobby and the process... keeps you at it.
The routine.. no matter how simple..
the problem solving.. no matter how bad it seems..
the maintanence.. no matter how tediious.. and the patience.. keeps you at it.. and results in success.

 

[Drewbacca]

but they talk about stability and maturity of a tank. What does that mean?

Stability means: the same basic needs at the right levels.. in proper balance with each other... day in and day out without any major swings or negative events..
(ie: basic water parameters, temp, proper lighting and it's sched.. nutrient levels, bacterial population and balance.. pollutants etc.
The success of this depends on what you start with and your willingness to keep up with the needed maintanance routines to keep all those things the same. Alot of which is a Lack of action... not changing things unless needed. If you start with the right things, the less chance change is needed. Doing things right can come from experience as a reefer, or just listening to an experienced reefer. (Like ryans latest talk which goes over a good recipe for sucess.)
Maturity means: What happens after you have that continued Stability over time.
A calm and comfortable community of fish.. Coraline covered rocks.. a strong and balanced bacterial population.. and long term coral growth. The stronger and more established these things are... the more it takes and harder it becomes to put them out of balance and cause serious negative effects to the overall environment/system.
That is the goal and benefits of a Mature reef tank.

 

[X-37B]

OK, but even after almost 4 months half of my coral are just kind of just hanging on day by day not really changing. I really don't know what I could do different. There's one thing I could get a par meter and check the par. I don't know how big of a difference that would make. I've been told so many different things about par. Keep it lower keep it higher. I just keep it kind of medium low for example at about 30% full power of what the LED can do. It's an integrated LED that came with the red sea tank. I think I'm just pretty much I've gotten to the point more recently that I'm just not tinkering. I'm just gonna let it be and as far as the LED goes I'm probably gonna keep it on medium mellow for now. Maybe raise it just a little bit, but that's all.
I have noticed, since I lowered my LED from really bright down to medium low I'm having much less dino and cyano issues. Those things are really, not a problem anymore. I'm afraid if I blast LEd I'll get more dinos etc

also, somebody on one of these forums posted a thread, how much more success they had when they lowered their LEDs

Without a par meter its just a guess.
I will say that 30% is most likely way low, imo.
Hard to comment on your system without a pic and parameters.
Corraline is a sign that your dosing system is working and stable.
Most new reefers make it way harder than it needs to be, imo.
If your new dm me if you want to discuss your system offline.

 

[NanoNana]

OK, but even after almost 4 months half of my coral are just kind of just hanging on day by day not really changing. I really don't know what I could do different. There's one thing I could get a par meter and check the par. I don't know how big of a difference that would make. I've been told so many different things about par. Keep it lower keep it higher. I just keep it kind of medium low for example at about 30% full power of what the LED can do. It's an integrated LED that came with the red sea tank. I think I'm just pretty much I've gotten to the point more recently that I'm just not tinkering. I'm just gonna let it be and as far as the LED goes I'm probably gonna keep it on medium mellow for now. Maybe raise it just a little bit, but that's all.
I have noticed, since I lowered my LED from really bright down to medium low I'm having much less dino and cyano issues. Those things are really, not a problem anymore. I'm afraid if I blast LEd I'll get more dinos etc

also, somebody on one of these forums posted a thread, how much more success they had when they lowered their LEDs

In my post in your last thread I told you your Zoas are stretching for light. Zoas should be flat on the frag plug. They stretch like that when they are light starved. 30% is too low. You’re in a huge metropolitan area. Find an LFS that rents par meters or rent one from BRS. The most important think you can do for a reef tank is light it properly. No matter how stable your parameters, how clean your tank is, healthy your fish are, how great your biome is, if you under or over light your tank too much, you will kill your coral.