Is it possible that TM product would cause a drop in pH?

[Salty_Northerner]

I'm having low pH issues and it seems to have started after 1 of 2 ways, but I need some professional help figuring this out.

I bought an Apex A3 unit mid March and also had Neptune support remotely check things out and all is good.

pH before was always hitting the mid 8.2's during the day and would never fall below 8 during the night.
Also no possible c02 pooling in the house as its been warm, and windows open with tones of air flowing through the living room.

It started when..

1- I cleaned the rear AIO sump out that was riddled with those white pod looking sponges that had hairs coming out out the end of them. Whatever they are I scraped them off and siphoned them out and have nice clean rear chambers.

2- I started to dose Tropic Marin NP-Bacto Balance.

I'm glad to have the Apex as I log everything and was able to see when this low pH became a problem.

Also noticed alkalinity has been taking a hit at the system consuming about .5 ppm a day now and before it be about .2 a day.
I keep alk @8.5 and was using AFR to maintain that number. I had to stop and switch over to the ESV 2 part just to get pH over the 8pH hump.

Water chemistry is good and doing a 5 gallon WC weekly using TM pro reef salt mix.
SG 34.6
DKh 8.0-8.5
Cal 462
Mag 1520
Nitrate 2.6
PO4 .04

Things I've gone to raise the pH, lifted the 1 MP pump closer up for greater surface agitation and cleaned the skimmer body and stopped adding AFR and NP-Bacto Balance.

I've noticed the pH is starting to hold higher during the night but still come morning the pH is dropping to the 7.95 zone where even in the winter with windows closed up the pH would hold righer.

Am I over reacting or thinking this?

Tank is now coming onto 9 months old near the end of this month.

 

[Lasse]

I suppose NP-Bacto balance content organic carbon. with adding this - you speed up the activities of aerobic heterotrophic bacteria. With aerobic - it means that they use oxygen and produce CO2 as a waste. Heterotrophic means that they use organic carbon. Every dosing with DOC (Dissolved Organic Carbon) result in a higher production of CO2 as a waste - O from oxygen and C from the organic carbon. This means that you rise the internal production of CO2 and if you do that - you need to rise the degassing of CO2 too - otherwise - lower pH

But a difference with 0.05 in pH can just be ***happens . I would not worry - my aquarium can drop to around 7.8 sometimes - lowest 7.65 (red circle)

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Salty_Northerner]

I suppose NP-Bacto balance content organic carbon. with adding this - you speed up the activities of aerobic heterotrophic bacteria. With aerobic - it means that they use oxygen and produce CO2 as a waste. Heterotrophic means that they use organic carbon. Every dosing with DOC (Dissolved Organic Carbon) result in a higher production of CO2 as a waste - O from oxygen and C from the organic carbon. This means that you rise the internal production of CO2 and if you do that - you need to rise the degassing of CO2 too - otherwise - lower pH

But a difference with 0.05 in pH can just be ***happens . I would not worry - my aquarium can drop to around 7.8 sometimes - lowest 7.65 (red circle)

Sincerely Lasse

Thanks for the info!

So would you recommend setting the skimmer to pull more waste out or have a dryer foam production?

 

[Lasse]

In this case - the amount of air is most interesting- IMO - more air in the skimmer - more degassing. More waves on the surface during night - more degassing.

Look at this graph. The blu marking indicate when I start a new wavemaker in the DT - placed that way that it is waves on the surface. The red marking shows what happens with my pH when the skimmer stop during night (skimmer cup full). A graph says everything.

pH during night (darkness) is always a function between internal production of CO2 and the rate of degassing

During day (light on) - the consumption of CO2 by photosynthesis can be so high that there is no degassing of CO2 - instead the aeration put in CO2 from the air into the water.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I agree that bactobalance, like all organic carbon dosing methods, can reduce pH to some extent as the organic is metabolized to CO2.

 

[Lasse]

A graph when skimmer stopped the other day

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Salty_Northerner]

So let me ask a dumb question, bacteria from the carbon dosing different then bacteria that grows in and on my 2x2" bio cubes?

I've got 6-7 cubes in both filter sock chambers. Do I even need them anymore? I feed 6 fish alot to raise po4 and n03 and have a hand full of inverts and snails and I can't feed enough to bring anything up. If a broadcast feed a bit of reef roids the po4 will jump up to around.1 and the next day will settle back out. What scares me when dosing NP balance, I was reading zero nitrate and .01 phosphate. I've stopped dosing any NP plus and balance just because of such low readings. I understand that balance won't show any nitrate on a test kit, and after a long drawn out battle with Dinos I don't want to go down that road again. I'll dose aminos daily and also add 10-15ml combined 3 types of live phyto and still can't get the system to naturally rise.

Tbh I don't want to babysit the tank every day when using the NP products and constantly worry about bottoming out on N and P. I've been stuck at home since the first week of December so I've been able to watch the system grow and mature but I'll be back to work in a month and won't be around all the time to do what needs to be done.

Sorry for the long winded msg :/

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

There are many different species of bacteria in a reef tank, and many other organisms that can use the organics added by organic carbon dosing (often including corals). Some of these bacteria will grow on cubes, and some elsewhere.

I personally think most reef tanks will do as well or better without any media for bacteria. The one caveat is tanks using organic carbon dosing, the bacteria have to grow somewhere, and having some sot of available surfaces outside of the display may reduce the possibility of getting unsightly bacteria in the display tank.

 

[Salty_Northerner]

There are many different species of bacteria in a reef tank, and many other organisms that can use the organics added by organic carbon dosing (often including corals). Some of these bacteria will grow on cubes, and some elsewhere.

I personally think most reef tanks will do as well or better without any media for bacteria. The one caveat is tanks using organic carbon dosing, the bacteria have to grow somewhere, and having some sot of available surfaces outside of the display may reduce the possibility of getting unsightly bacteria in the display tank.

So your suggesting that I can either keep them or remove them. I guess it wouldn't hurt just removing the cubes in the one chamber and leave the others in the other chamber. It wouldn't hurt I suppose? And what are the unsightly bacteria in the DT?

 

[Lasse]

So let me ask a dumb question, bacteria from the carbon dosing different then bacteria that grows in and on my 2x2" bio cubes?

Not so dumb question - the answer is that they are probably the same according to heterotrophic bacteria but if your cubes are heavy aerated they can content nitrification bacteria that is autotrophic (like plants and algae) They are not affected by DOC dosing - they use inorganic carbon instead like CO2, HCO3 and CO3.

If you have cubes and low or non oxygen around them - you get denitrification - especially if you dose any form of DOC. If you have problem to keep NO3 up - I would take out at least half of them.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Salty_Northerner]

Not so dumb question - the answer is that they are probably the same according to heterotrophic bacteria but if your cubes are heavy aerated they can content nitrification bacteria that is autotrophic (like plants and algae) They are not affected by DOC dosing - they use inorganic carbon instead like CO2, HCO3 and CO3.

If you have cubes and low or non oxygen around them - you get denitrification - especially if you dose any form of DOC. If you have problem to keep NO3 up - I would take out at least half of them.

Sincerely Lasse

Thank you Sir Lasse you've been a great help and I really appreciate the in depth information you provided.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I’d start removing them.

 

[Salty_Northerner]

I removed 4 that were in the left chamber and there's 3 in the right chamber remaining. In your opinion would you recommend leaving the 3 remaining or just remove them all?

Side note, I am now out of TM pro salt and have a box of TM reef-actif salt so regardless I'll be carbon dosing with the tank here on out. A box here in Canada for the 200gallon pail is $160 and cheapest shipping is $100 so no sense buying more pro reef with a box of the actif salt sitting here. I think the tank is maturing enough to start using the salt on hand.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I removed 4 that were in the left chamber and there's 3 in the right chamber remaining. In your opinion would you recommend leaving the 3 remaining or just remove them all?

Side note, I am now out of TM pro salt and have a box of TM reef-actif salt so regardless I'll be carbon dosing with the tank here on out. A box here in Canada for the 200gallon pail is $160 and cheapest shipping is $100 so no sense buying more pro reef with a box of the actif salt sitting here. I think the tank is maturing enough to start using the salt on hand.

I'd wait a week, then remove the remainder if all is well.

 

[Salty_Northerner]

I'd wait a week, then remove the remainder if all is well.

Sounds good and thank you Sir!

 

[Salty_Northerner]

I'd wait a week, then remove the remainder if all is well.

Good call. After removing half of the bio cubes the nitrate started to rise. I added 1 cube back and now I believe I found the balance and nitrate is holding steady.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Good call. After removing half of the bio cubes the nitrate started to rise. I added 1 cube back and now I believe I found the balance and nitrate is holding steady.

Thanks for the update.

Happy reefing.