Is a "wake up call" needed, or am I just being grumpy?

TJ's Reef · Mar 3, 2014

WOW ! Scott my friend you have done it again... like or warped minds do think alike.... lol I should really travel around with you as a 'Tag Team' partner.

+1 to what Dave (shred5) stated above as an 'Old Salt' do get very frustrated at the direction this hobby has gone and seemingly lack of understanding to even basic Biology by most. I to have grasped and bought into some of the benefits of modern technology in Reefkeeping but rely mostly on my decades of experience and Biology/Marine Biology history as a true guide to success. We/the Forums have been preaching PATIENCE ~ PATIENCE ~ PATIENCE for years now but seems so little actually listen to this advice. Being another outspoken Reefkeeper myself, love to teach or pass on knowledge to those who will listen and benefit from my experiences. Especially those who grasp the ideas of and have a desire in setting up a natural biotope, whatever that may be. Have also noted and spoken quite a bit about all the 'Press' these 'BIG $ Frag Tanks' get, I do not typically do any posting to these threads no matter the Forum or the amount of high end Coral/Fish within, do not need to further inflate or crush their egos. To me personally, as unimpressive as most $100K + Cars/SUV's that so many flaunt yet never put on a track or off-road to show that they actually possess the skill set to go with.

I take great pride in my system both in aesthetics as well as methodically understanding the Biology behind it. To me creating what could actually be a functioning slice of a 'Real Reef' is/was paramount to the whole process. By understanding each specie of livestock and grouping together in such a way that it could/would happen in the 'Wild Reefs' (less top tier predators of course) to me (IMO) is the most impressive and ones that should get 'The Press' and 'Recognition' rightfully earned, hopefully enfluencing the next generation.

Cheers, Todd

bkchoo · Mar 3, 2014

Hi can't the picture here. Any setting issue?

DecanoLA · Mar 3, 2014

clap clap clap!

ReefDVMs · Mar 3, 2014

You Know what is very interesting about Mr Fellman's writing today is that it exists in almost every aspect of the pet care industry. Welcome Mr. Fellman to our world as veterinarians (personally we work in feline, canine, equine and aquatics fields here) were the husbandry is replaced by bite sized "george jettson" all in one kibble, automatic litter boxes, GPS tracking pets, pet water fountains or perhaps the "electric invisible" fence for containing vs training, or maybe we can discuss the ethics of cost too for just because one spends good money at the veterinary hospital or local LFS doesnt mean they care well for the pet but yet it also does mean they might too. So with regret I can say after handling over 10000 plus cases of animal and aquatic care over the years the industry and hobby you so care about...ie "reefing" is just going through the growing pains of any pet care hobby. Latest advances right now its the "tech phase" for reefing but it will change for the good and bad in the future trust me. I hope for all in the hobby the love of reefing will always revolve on the "husbandry of the life" we assist and enjoy.....but that is up to us is it not. The tech field will accelerate us and advance our abilities that is true, but when its said and done it comes down to knowledge and care we all offer the loved ones we have. Try to stay optimistic and advance the hobby the best you can, pessimism will only lead to failure.

Eienna · Mar 3, 2014

I think that the tech is good - to a point. For instance, I'm looking forward to having a sump, because I have myself a phosphate problem (I can get the nitrates down bacterially...haven't yet figured out if you can do that with phosphate) and will finally have a space to stuff a lot of macroalgae in. My two turbo snails eat the stuff otherwise, lol! The gadgets can be helpful. I'd like an ATO so I'm not lifting heavy jugs any more, but at the same time, I'm afraid of it failing...umm...I'm getting off-topic.

I do agree that a lot of people are buying this, that, and the other without having a clue why. And "can" is not synonymous with "should." I'm finding that my budget is forcing me to stop and think, "do I actually need that?" A lot of times the answer is no.

Um...I'm gonna shut up now. My brain is fried today and I'm really not sure I'm even making any sense, let alone sticking to the subject.

SPotter · Mar 3, 2014

great write up Scott. I am in the process of planning my next tank and I am trying to focus more on what you have said and not so much on the equipment. My last tank which I sold because we moved out of state, I spent too much time worrying about the equipment and not enough time thinking about if the equipment I purchased was going to work together as a complete system or work against each other. I see so many threads on other sites where the OP spends 1-2 years planning and obsessing over so many different parts of the system and the technology that can be purchased. Then the tank is finally set up, filled, corals and fish put in after two weeks because they transferred everything over from another tank and then not another post is made for months and months at a time. I understand people have lives but I think the thrill for them is showing off the gadgets and once they have accumulated all of the gadgets they begin to lose interest in the bigger picture.

I enjoy your posts Scott and look forward to reading more of them!

gmoney243 · Mar 3, 2014

Your not being grumpy people these days seem to be more in awe of whats under the stand as oppose to whats in the tank. Been having these same thoughts for a long time now and wish we had more amazing looking tanks with art in mind like planted tanks do. Been hoping to see some shift in the hobby like people building tanks with all regoing specific corals and fish or something. Instead all tanks start to look alike including mine. But i just get what corals and fish i like personally and dont worry about what name it is or buying these over priced corals. Or maybe im just grumpy with you.

uniquecorals · Mar 3, 2014

ReefDVMs said:
You Know what is very interesting about Mr Fellman's writing today is that it exists in almost every aspect of the pet care industry. Welcome Mr. Fellman to our world as veterinarians (personally we work in feline, canine, equine and aquatics fields here) were the husbandry is replaced by bite sized "george jettson" all in one kibble, automatic litter boxes, GPS tracking pets, pet water fountains or perhaps the "electric invisible" fence for containing vs training, or maybe we can discuss the ethics of cost too for just because one spends good money at the veterinary hospital or local LFS doesnt mean they care well for the pet but yet it also does mean they might too. So with regret I can say after handling over 10000 plus cases of animal and aquatic care over the years the industry and hobby you so care about...ie "reefing" is just going through the growing pains of any pet care hobby. Latest advances right now its the "tech phase" for reefing but it will change for the good and bad in the future trust me. I hope for all in the hobby the love of reefing will always revolve on the "husbandry of the life" we assist and enjoy.....but that is up to us is it not. The tech field will accelerate us and advance our abilities that is true, but when its said and done it comes down to knowledge and care we all offer the loved ones we have. Try to stay optimistic and advance the hobby the best you can, pessimism will only lead to failure.

Excellent point and interesting point of view! No worries- I'm quite the optimist...I just have a loose cannon for a mouth sometimes! I am glad that no one has retorted that I'm coming off as a "tech hater", 'cause I'm not. And I agree with some of the opinions that the tech is a fun part of the hobby for a lot of people. My big concern is that, as you point out, is that I'd hate to see technology and the "collection mentality" supplant the things that make the hobby what it is...The "art" of reef keeping!

Thanks for the feedback!

Scott

uniquecorals · Mar 3, 2014

SPotter said:
great write up Scott. I am in the process of planning my next tank and I am trying to focus more on what you have said and not so much on the equipment. My last tank which I sold because we moved out of state, I spent too much time worrying about the equipment and not enough time thinking about if the equipment I purchased was going to work together as a complete system or work against each other. I see so many threads on other sites where the OP spends 1-2 years planning and obsessing over so many different parts of the system and the technology that can be purchased. Then the tank is finally set up, filled, corals and fish put in after two weeks because they transferred everything over from another tank and then not another post is made for months and months at a time. I understand people have lives but I think the thrill for them is showing off the gadgets and once they have accumulated all of the gadgets they begin to lose interest in the bigger picture.

I enjoy your posts Scott and look forward to reading more of them!

Thanks for the kind words..Although I'm not "all about" the tech, I will be the first to tell you to invest in high quality equipment- the best you can afford to do the job that you need it to do. Just don't forget the "art', which it sounds like you are not forgetting!

-Scott

uniquecorals · Mar 3, 2014

gmoney243 said:
Your not being grumpy people these days seem to be more in awe of whats under the stand as oppose to whats in the tank. Been having these same thoughts for a long time now and wish we had more amazing looking tanks with art in mind like planted tanks do. Been hoping to see some shift in the hobby like people building tanks with all regoing specific corals and fish or something. Instead all tanks start to look alike including mine. But i just get what corals and fish i like personally and dont worry about what name it is or buying these over priced corals. Or maybe im just grumpy with you.

Well, when I'm grumpy, there is strength in numbers, right?

:rant:

EliteReefs · Mar 5, 2014

Seems right on in my book. I have nearly 1300 gallons of water as of right now and not a single controller or fancy device. Good salts, quality lighting, a good skimmer, and over all constant and religious water changes. Heck I believe that if you set up a balanced system it will dang near take care of itself.

I hate to admit it but when I moved houses a couple years ago I went nearly the first year without a single thing being done to the tanks. Literally nothing at all. Did not lose a single fish or coral. Did lose some coral color because the bulbs where so old but other then that all is well. I don't recommend doing that but I feel it goes to show that if you pay attention of the things that go into your tank and set it up as a mini Eco system it can and will be rather easy to care for. I have never seen the need nor have I understood why some tanks look more like a meth lab then a reef tank.

Big E · Mar 5, 2014

Great write up...........it's exactly how I feel and where I'm at in the hobby after almost 25 years. The fundamentals of keeping Acros hasn't changed in many years and sometimes all this techy stuff just gets in the way.

I could care less about that stuff other than keeping my equipment organized and working properly.

I get the most pleasure out of seeing grown out colonies and aquascaping that soothes my mind and heart as Steve W. would say. I've kept some of his posts about aquascaping and share those thoughts all the time and have echoed those same sentiments about freshwater folks focusing on the art of design. After all, they don't have all the wacky colors that marine corals have.

When did a display tank with frag racks and plugs littered everywhere acosss the front of a tank become pretty?...............ughhh.

I think part of it too is looking for new challanges...........when you've been around for a while you focus on the art of aquascaping, biology and the pleasure of sharing info.

What I think is ironic is that I get a lot of quesions from people, but they very rarely ask what I think are the important questions and are sometimes perplexed by the anwsers I give them................. that important info has been buried by all the dogma and marketing from twitter, forums, ect. It's all new to them in a sense.

dallasg · Mar 8, 2014

great write up...
my fish are all chosen for a purpose, i might have 1 that just looks nice... to me the science behind it what gets me going, i have stopped the use of DSB due to space constraints etc, my current tank has some gadgets to try out etc but in time i will go back to the minimalist basics

whats your view on skimmers? run a tank without one using refugiums and ATS

Beradd · Mar 8, 2014

+1 Love, passion and attentiveness coupled with hard work and study can run a reef better than a computer. I think what the fresh water guys have on us ....other than a longer history is style. simplistic in design there beauty is viewed as a whole picture. versus most of our reefs that we are looking at a 20 or 30 different species in there individual beauty.

Diamond1 · Mar 8, 2014

Very insightful write up. I'm going to be play the devil's advocate to make a couple points. I recall reading Steve W's thread as he was building his tank and was amazed by the whole process. One thing that struck me about it at the time was how much new tech he was using that was available. Latest skimmer, water movement, lighting etc... I agree that his tank and his vision for it was well thought out and one of the greatest tank builds I have ever seen. None of which would be possible without the tech that he used. I would wager that if Steve were building the same tank today he would have used all the latest techno gadgets available to make his vision a reality. I understand the need for all the tech on a system as large and complex as his and can't imagine running a tank that size without it. On the other hand I look at tanks like Melev's old 29 gallon set up or PaulB's 40 year old tank and marvel at the simplicity of it and the success they have had. There are many ways to achieve a goal, (high tech or low tech) but the vision of the end product is what matters. Myself I like to keep things simple, after all the more gadgets you have the more chance you have for something to go wrong.
I do agree with you that most reefkeepers of the day are caught up in the I have the latest new gizmo or the most expensive hard to find coral on the market syndrome. To me a frag rack full of frag plugs with 3 $150 polyps on each plug or a sump full of the latest goodies does not constitute a successful reef tank.
I would love to see more bio-tope specific tanks like an all deep water acro tank, a tide pool tank or something else along those lines.

uniquecorals · Mar 8, 2014

Diamond1 said:
Very insightful write up. I'm going to be play the devil's advocate to make a couple points. I recall reading Steve W's thread as he was building his tank and was amazed by the whole process. One thing that struck me about it at the time was how much new tech he was using that was available. Latest skimmer, water movement, lighting etc... I agree that his tank and his vision for it was well thought out and one of the greatest tank builds I have ever seen. None of which would be possible without the tech that he used. I would wager that if Steve were building the same tank today he would have used all the latest techno gadgets available to make his vision a reality. I understand the need for all the tech on a system as large and complex as his and can't imagine running a tank that size without it. On the other hand I look at tanks like Melev's old 29 gallon set up or PaulB's 40 year old tank and marvel at the simplicity of it and the success they have had. There are many ways to achieve a goal, (high tech or low tech) but the vision of the end product is what matters. Myself I like to keep things simple, after all the more gadgets you have the more chance you have for something to go wrong.
I do agree with you that most reefkeepers of the day are caught up in the I have the latest new gizmo or the most expensive hard to find coral on the market syndrome. To me a frag rack full of frag plugs with 3 $150 polyps on each plug or a sump full of the latest goodies does not constitute a successful reef tank.
I would love to see more bio-tope specific tanks like an all deep water acro tank, a tide pool tank or something else along those lines.

Actually, in discussing his next tank, I asked Steve about tech. He thought it was kind of funny, that after his "sabbatical", the main technologies that changed were lighting and pump technology. He was actually pretty confident that about the only tech changes he's need to make were using the aforementioned updated systems..Although, he might still go with halides on the lights. He was quite intrigued with new pump technology, like Vortecs, HydroWizards, etc. His take on hardware was that it would simply be what he needed to get the job done.

Can't wait to see what he comes up with!

-Scott

DaveMorris · Mar 8, 2014

I would agree with this overall observation. I see it while perusing the various forums that I frequent. Two things always make me roll my eyes…the guys that go on and on about having all of the latest gadgets (insert your favorite LED fixture here) and the guys that go on and on about the latest "So and so LE this or that for only $499/polyp". I feel like those are guys that are out of touch with the nature of what they have in a reef tank. I know guys that can't be bothered with a common, every day chalice or a pink birds nest. If it doesn't have some self-appointed coral farmer's name on it or didn't cost him $200, they don't want it. I don't get it.

Then let's take the equipment side of the equation…I am an admitted techno geek when it comes to my reef tank. I am a huge proponent of tank controllers and believe that every tank out there can benefit from having one. I have given numerous talks to clubs regarding controllers and the main point I try to make is that it is all about consistency. A controller, ATO, light timer, etc. all contribute to a consistent more realistic balance to your tank inhabitants. However, in these talks it is so hard to get people to understand that the bells and whistles may be nice, but the most important thing needs to be what will benefit the inhabitants the best. So many times the desire for all of those bells and whistles gets confused with the need for those bells and whistles.

Electrobes · Mar 8, 2014

Being in the hobby for ten to eleven years, I've always felt like I started during the "enlightenment" period. As the years have gone by I've notice something that didn't dawn on me until very recently.

Speaking only about equipment: Back when I entered the hobby, it felt like a whole lot of hobbyists were experimenting with all sorts of ideas that ranged from filtration systems to rock making (this is especially dear to me as I found my calling because of this time). I think it had more to do with necessity AND curiosity of the times.

I (My opinion of course) see all sorts of changes that gives our state of the hobby now, but on the equipment side of things I feel like it's quite the opposite of back then. It feels like companies make all the inventions or new methods for doing things (Ironically, I am part of this) as opposed to hobbyists. No doubt, many may have started as reefers then turned business, but I don't see nearly the amount of discussion or collaboration as I did back then.

I feel like conformity is adopted much faster now. Much of it makes sense. All encompassing controllers? Awesome! But this is what gets a bit under my skin. The new things that come out, I feel, are greatly underestimated in complexity (I mainly blame company advertising for this) and worse yet poorly researched by hobbyists. A couple of examples:

Biopellets (Vodka dosing being the first introduced). You get a couple success stories and a lot of hobbyists were quick to try it out, without really understanding what it all did. How many panicking hobbyists spoke of tank white outs have we all read?

LEDs - This topic will be especially touchy given it's quick adoption, yet is still misunderstood. God I truly love LEDs, it's one to the few bastions of hobbyist creativity I still see in this hobby, there are so many DIYs on this it makes my heart sing. BUT how many times have we all read about corals getting fried, and bewildered hobbyists (Especially new reefers) getting upset and ready to blame everyone else but themselves?

Both of the above technologies are both cool and beneficial but it's speed of adoption and lack of explanation/useful discussion (as opposed to the "I am doing it and my corals looks awesome.. In a span of a week! Or my friend of a friend did it and his tank went from frown town to TOTM") is what I hate most about our current times in this hobby. Companies, hobbyists, even ideologies often get thrown under the bus with little evidence of what actually occurred.

I don't know if I am old school (Being a 31 year old who loves computers and technology, I doubt it) but I personally miss two things from my early days if reefing:

- More evidence based reefing (ie longer term studies). To this day my biggest thrill was reading science/hobbyist articles from the likes of Randy Holmes Farely. To actually have some understanding of why I am successful or a failure.. To later tweak it or make it right was just awesome.

- Mature tanks (Pre-warning, this is just my opinion, I only speak for myself): I have gotten pretty dismissive of current raved tanks. I truly miss the days of seeing an article on a tank and seeing large colonies of corals that have been with the owner for quite some time. I am leery of reading the articles when I see a picture of what amounts to a display frag tank.

Maybe I have gotten too cynical or am being what many of us become later in age... always feeling like something could be better than it is now. I will say this, I really do appreciate what tech we now have and can't wait to see some more ingenuity in the near future.

PS - Holy cow! I don't think I've written anything this long, in a post, in what feels like forever!

Eienna · Mar 8, 2014

I don't mind, on principle, frags being collected and traded, or the excitement over gadgets. To each his own - if it makes you happy, then it does, and we have no right to put that down. I do agree, however, that hobbyists are often buying the "hottest" gear without really understanding it...education is giving way to hype.

I, too, enjoy the scientific/research articles I've been digging up from around the web. I do have to point out that they are an extremely difficult read for the average American these days (very, very sad, but true.) Perhaps we should put some effort into "decoding" these articles so that they are more understandable to the average Joe, and then reposting them on the web (with the proper credit to and permission from the original author, of course).

Apparently some people like showing off their collection of frags as if they were living trading cards. Okay. I see no real harm in that. I do object to it being called a reef tank (more like a frag tank), but that's semantics more than anything. I also agree that it takes little skill, but again, some like collecting the cards more than they do actually playing the game.

Personally, I love a nice, grown-out, mature, thought-out ecosystem that truly looks like a small slice of a wild reef, and intend my aquarium to become so. I feel the real beauty of a reef tank is the careful blend of art and science, and that the gadgets are there for utility, not to be the main focus.

To each his own - or, as the Japanese put it, "Juu nin to iro." (Ten people, ten colors.)