ICH transmission ,URGENT

[youclowntoomuch]

Bought a royal gramma this past weekend. Was told by my LFS that gramma do not need quarantine. Introduced the fish to the tank and it was completely free and clear of any visible health issues. A little skittish but otherwise hungry and coming out to eat. 24 hours ago I noticed 2 spots on its tail fin, today I noticed 3-5 other small white spots with one being closer to the gills and 2-3 being on the dorsal. I went and bought a quarantine tank to handle this problem. Does anyone have any links to good literature/ posts on how to handle this the right way? Everything I seem to read tells a different story. I hate to be the guy asking questions that have already been answered but I’m feeling confused by the sheer amount of people saying different things.
Also will I have to remove all fish? Since the new one has just started showing does that mean that the ick hasn’t settled into the substrate? Thanks in advance

 

[youclowntoomuch]

Picture of the affected fish. Still has a big appetite and is strutting around the tank. Setting up a quarantine now.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Picture of the affected fish. Still has a big appetite and is strutting around the tank. Setting up a quarantine now.

Assume all fish have something and quarantine them. This appears to be lymphocystis opposed to ich but if the number of dots increase in number and location, will be ich. See in 24 hours if this is the case.

 

[youclowntoomuch]

Assume all fish have something and quarantine them. This appears to be lymphocystis opposed to ich but if the number of dots increase in number and location, will be ich. See in 24 hours if this is the case.

Even if the fish has only been in the new tank for several days?

 

[Boreas_SA]

TBH the white spot has probably been in the tank before you added the royal gramma, as it takes longer than 2 or 3 days for the parasites to complete their life cycle from when it falls off the fish to where it is visible on the fish again. Unless you didn't see the spots on the gramma before it went in. The other fish probably has partial immunity with lower volumes persisting in their gills where you can't see them. Royal grammas are also from Caribbean, so good chance it doesn't have the immunity of a strain of white spot from Indo-Pacific that might be present in your tank. Only way to eliminate it is to remove all fish and let the tank go fallow for 2-3 months. Otherwise google Ich management and see how you can run a tank without white spot ever overwhelming the fish.

 

[youclowntoomuch]

TBH the white spot has probably been in the tank before you added the royal gramma, as it takes longer than 2 or 3 days for the parasites to complete their life cycle from when it falls off the fish to where it is visible on the fish again. Unless you didn't see the spots on the gramma before it went in. The other fish probably has partial immunity with lower volumes persisting in their gills where you can't see them. Royal grammas are also from Caribbean, so good chance it doesn't have the immunity of a strain of white spot from Indo-Pacific that might be present in your tank. Only way to eliminate it is to remove all fish and let the tank go fallow for 2-3 months. Otherwise google Ich management and see how you can run a tank without white spot ever overwhelming the fish.

The tank is only 2 weeks old. Everything is new and was stable until the gramma. Does that change anything?

 

[Boreas_SA]

The tank is only 2 weeks old. Everything is new and was stable until the gramma. Does that change anything?

Not really, no. It makes it more urgent to try and get all fish into QT and let the tank go fallow, as it probably also means the tank might still be cycling and a bit unstable. Pay close attention to the amount of spots, it can easily and quickly overwhelm fish in a new tank where the cycling and instability causes additional stress.

 

[youclowntoomuch]

Not really, no. It makes it more urgent to try and get all fish into QT and let the tank go fallow, as it probably also means the tank might still be cycling and a bit unstable. Pay close attention to the amount of spots, it can easily and quickly overwhelm fish in a new tank where the cycling and instability causes additional stress.

It’s now flashing

 

[vetteguy53081]

Even if the fish has only been in the new tank for several days?

Yes- again assume they have something and take precautions

 

[youclowntoomuch]

Yes- again assume they have something and take precautions

Copper power will be on my doorstep in the AM. I have my 10g quarantine up and cycling for the fish.

 

[gbroadbridge]

Copper power will be on my doorstep in the AM. I have my 10g quarantine up and cycling for the fish.

It's annoying that this is your introduction to the hobby.

You should find another LFS who does not give such poor advice.

The fish should have been quarantined and treated before introduction to your display tank, unfortunately now you have the pain of having to leave your display fallow for a quite a long period of time.

 

[Mr. Mojo Rising]

The tank is only 2 weeks old. Everything is new and was stable until the gramma. Does that change anything?

How big is the tank and how many fish? Several fish in a 2 week old tank is going very fast in this hobby, I normally don't add my first fish until 3-4 weeks in, and my second fish about a month later. Would suggest to go a bit slower and don't take advice from your LFS anymore.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Picture of the affected fish. Still has a big appetite and is strutting around the tank. Setting up a quarantine now.

The spots look pretty large and oddly localized to be ich, but if this is a smaller gramma, it still could be. The flashing/scratching is often a sign of flukes. Now that the gramma has been exposed to the other fish, they will need to be treated (sorry!). I think you need a new LFS, grammas are very common fish disease carriers UNLESS this was a captive raised one that had never been mixed with wild fish (very unlikely).

Here is our current quarantine protocol:

Current Quarantine Protocol

2023 Quarantine Procedures Jay Hemdal David Scarborough Protozoans (Cryptocaryon/ich, Amyloodinium/velvet) and Metazoan trematodes/flukes are by far the most common parasites found on newly acquired fish. A carefully managed quarantine process can effectively eliminate these parasites before...

www.reef2reef.com

Jay

 

[youclowntoomuch]

How big is the tank and how many fish? Several fish in a 2 week old tank is going very fast in this hobby, I normally don't add my first fish until 3-4 weeks in, and my second fish about a month later. Would suggest to go a bit slower and don't take advice from your LFS anymore.

Local fish store sold them to me. I’ve kept many freshwater tanks with a high level of success. Planted , aquascaped, monster freshwater tanks with garfish and oddballs. I know what I’m doing on the other side of the aisle, but when it comes to saltwater it feels like I’ve have a very rough start.

 

[youclowntoomuch]

The spots look pretty large and oddly localized to be ich, but if this is a smaller gramma, it still could be. The flashing/scratching is often a sign of flukes. Now that the gramma has been exposed to the other fish, they will need to be treated (sorry!). I think you need a new LFS, grammas are very common fish disease carriers UNLESS this was a captive raised one that had never been mixed with wild fish (very unlikely).

Here is our current quarantine protocol:

Current Quarantine Protocol

2023 Quarantine Procedures Jay Hemdal David Scarborough Protozoans (Cryptocaryon/ich, Amyloodinium/velvet) and Metazoan trematodes/flukes are by far the most common parasites found on newly acquired fish. A carefully managed quarantine process can effectively eliminate these parasites before...

www.reef2reef.com

Jay

No indication whether captive or wild. Unfortunately since moving to my area my only local fish store is petco. It sucks. Most of the time they have an ill advised teenager giving instruction. There is a decent saltwater locally owned store across town that I sometimes call.

Btw this fish is maybe 1.24 inches long . Also the spots have went from 3 to about 7-10 in a period of 24 hr. I have copper power arriving later in the day.

 

[youclowntoomuch]

It's annoying that this is your introduction to the hobby.

You should find another LFS who does not give such poor advice.

The fish should have been quarantined and treated before introduction to your display tank, unfortunately now you have the pain of having to leave your display fallow for a quite a long period of time.

Well yes it is a “display” but I only have fish and inverts.no corals yet and no plans to keep coral for some time as I dumped all of my money on everything but the expensive lights. I’ve been thinking about the possibility of homing my inverts in the quarantine tank, treating the ick in the main tank. Water changing , the putting the inverts in. I know copper harms coral but since I’m a long ways off from coral, can I safely remove the copper before then?

 

[Mr. Mojo Rising]

Local fish store sold them to me. I’ve kept many freshwater tanks with a high level of success. Planted , aquascaped, monster freshwater tanks with garfish and oddballs. I know what I’m doing on the other side of the aisle, but when it comes to saltwater it feels like I’ve have a very rough start.

freshwater and saltwater are as similar as rugby and football. Many of us have gone through that learning curve. Research is a very important part of SW, much more vital than LFS's advice. Anyway, welcome to the salty side and good luck

 

[Largeangels]

Move the fish to QT and don't treat main tank. You will be better off in short and long term. Since everything is so new keep a very close eye on Ammonia and follow the Current Quarantine Protocol posted above.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Well yes it is a “display” but I only have fish and inverts.no corals yet and no plans to keep coral for some time as I dumped all of my money on everything but the expensive lights. I’ve been thinking about the possibility of homing my inverts in the quarantine tank, treating the ick in the main tank. Water changing , the putting the inverts in. I know copper harms coral but since I’m a long ways off from coral, can I safely remove the copper before then?

What about moving all of the inverts out and running hyposalinity in your main tank? That way, you can avoid copper contamination in your display tank. Hyposalinity will also help against flukes.

Hyposalinity

Hyposalinity Jay Hemdal 2021 This term refers to a long-term bath treatment for marine fishes in which the salt content of the water is lowered and held below the point that certain parasites can survive. The salt level reached, and the time of the treatment are the two variables...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[Macbalacano]

if using copper, you should use it in a separate tank that will only be used for fish and with other items contaminated by copper.

Rocks will absorb copper and leech it out overtime.

Copper is toxic to inverts.

Other things will absorb copper and leech it overtime too.

Definitely do not use it in a main display ever.

It’s tough, I used to quarantine everything and medicate before putting in my main tank, but it was a lot of work and I still experienced a lot of losses.

I started buying my fish from a more reputable LFS and became very picky with the specimens - I’d watch them in store for a while and only buy ones the LFS has had for a while.

I don’t quarantine anymore but haven’t had any issues in a year.

Everyone can take different approaches and I know that not quarantining has risks. But I’d do some research on both approaches for the future.

Really sorry for what you’re experiencing now - I’ve been there and it’s not fun! I hope your fish get better soon and you have better luck afterwards!