"Ich Management"

[Jay Hemdal]

Because this topic continues to come up, I wanted to create a sticky thread so that it is more easily referenced. Please understand that I am NOT presenting this as an optimum method for controlling marine ich, just putting it out there for people who want to try it. Also, do not pick and choose which items you want to follow - you need to go with all guns blazing and use them all.


Ich Management for Cryptocaryon irritans

Warning: Starting Ich Management during an active infection only works if the number of trophonts on the fish is below a certain number. Above that number and the trophonts themselves become stressors and the parasite gains a foothold, despite your attempts to manage it. So what is that number? It depends on too many variables - but I start to expect Ich Management to fail if the number of spots on any one fish is above 30 or so.

Because many aquarists mix fish and invertebrates, they are ill-prepared to then treat for marine ich, as the two best treatments, amine-based copper or hyposalinity, cannot be used with invertebrates. A popular technique has then arisen, “ich management”. It is popular not because it works well, but because it is an easier alternative. Be forewarned, it often fails if applied during moderate infections. The reason that it exists as a technique at all is because people find themselves in situations like this and are desperate to try anything.

The basic idea is to reduce the infective propagules (tomites) of the ich parasite to the point where the fish's acquired immunity can fight the infection off. This is done through a series of techniques for stress reduction and tomite limiting. Unfortunately, the ich tomites themselves cause stress to the fish, (propagule pressure) so if the fish have more than 30 or so trophonts on them, the method often fails.

First, you must be 100% certain of your diagnosis and that the fish do not have concurrent infections of ich plus something else. This process ONLY works against mild cases of ich.

1) Install a powerful UV sterilizer on the aquarium. A minimum kill factor of greater than 200,000 uWs/cm2 is needed.
2) Ensure that the fish's diet and water quality are the best you can make them.
3) Do not add non-quarantined fish to any system where you are managing ich.
4) Keep the water temperature close to 78 degrees F. Raising the water temperature only makes the parasite reproduce faster
5) Siphon off the tank floor nightly to remove as many tomonts as possible.
6) Employ strong mechanical filtration to trap as many tomites as possible.
7) Hydrogen peroxide dosed at 10 mg/l has been shown to reduce the number of theronts in the water (see note below).
8) Try a proprietary "reef safe" marine ich medication. These rarely cure ich infections on their own, but some may have benefit when combined with other management methods. Avoid the herbal remedies, focus on those that contain peroxide salts (but then do not use point 7 above).


Note - Hydrogen peroxide: This is a popular adjunct method for "ich management". It is much more difficult to use than some people will have you think. H2O2 is an oxidant, and the amount of left reactive in your aquarium's water is dependent on the level of organics available to be oxidized. These amounts are different for each tank and they change with the continued additions of peroxide. Therefore, these simply is no "one dose" that works in all instances. Using a hydrogen peroxide test strip is highly recommended! Here are some resources if you wish to use this material:

Hydrogen peroxide bench testing: https://www.reef2reef.com/ams/hydrogen-peroxide-bench-testing.803/
Calculator for proper dosing: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/fish-disease-calculators.997311/

There is some evidence that using peroxides with UV does not work, as the UV can break down the peroxides.
You also need to examine WHY it is a popular method - is it just because you can purchase peroxide at any drug store?


Jay

 

[vetteguy53081]

Looks good. Issue I am seeing as well as yourself is as stated, many are doing mixed reefs and not planning for worse case scenarios and then want to short cut methods as with one on right now with fellow looking for short cuts with a UV after fish are infested, Polyp lab Medic and any source other than having to move the fish.
After as with many offering suggestive alternates, person(s) still try to argue why they cant medicate, lose the fish and blame LFS, medication and others while not realizing - " Ich erradication is on you, not the fish" !

 

[randomfishdude]

I just finished using polyop lab for ich management. I did happen to get lucky and the ich hasn't come back.

I feel the only reason you should do ich management is if you can not qt to any capacity.

You're just risking your expensive fish.
I lost 300$ in fish because of it.

 

[GARRIGA]

UV converts hydrogen peroxide into free radicals that can better oxidize that they come into contact with based on my research. No practical experience but I’ll be testing out my theories.

I’m theorizing that with proper testing perhaps one can dose the tank then rely on the UV to neutralize that dosage similar to how carbon acts as a gate keeper for ozone. Mostly theory that I’m still trying to confirm but seems logical. Can also possibly use ORP as a reading above or below certain levels should HP exist above acceptable levels. Obviously blind administering not advisable.

Here’s a general explanation. I’ve also found that these free radicals only exist for possibly milliseconds and why I’m thinking it would be effective at removing HP were it overdosed or treatment ended. Similar to using carbon or skimmer to remove other treatments. As simple as turning the lamp on or leaving it off while treating. With a controller and ORP probe safeguards could be added. No different then many other applications and very similar to me in using ozone. Something I was once again considering yet now once again thinking of avoiding. 30 plus year journey with that

 

[EliMelly]

Because this topic continues to come up, I wanted to create a sticky thread so that it is more easily referenced. Please understand that I am NOT presenting this as an optimum method for controlling marine ich, just putting it out there for people who want to try it. Also, do not pick and choose which items you want to follow - you need to go with all guns blazing and use them all.


Ich Management for Cryptocaryon irritans

Warning: Starting Ich Management during an active infection only works if the number of trophonts on the fish is below a certain number. Above that number and the trophonts themselves become stressors and the parasite gains a foothold, despite your attempts to manage it. So what is that number? It depends on too many variables - but I start to expect Ich Management to fail if the number of spots on any one fish is above 30 or so.

Because many aquarists mix fish and invertebrates, they are ill-prepared to then treat for marine ich, as the two best treatments, amine-based copper or hyposalinity, cannot be used with invertebrates. A popular technique has then arisen, “ich management”. It is popular not because it works well, but because it is an easier alternative. Be forewarned, it often fails if applied during moderate infections. The reason that it exists as a technique at all is because people find themselves in situations like this and are desperate to try anything.

The basic idea is to reduce the infective propagules (tomites) of the ich parasite to the point where the fish's acquired immunity can fight the infection off. This is done through a series of techniques for stress reduction and tomite limiting. Unfortunately, the ich tomites themselves cause stress to the fish, (propagule pressure) so if the fish have more than 30 or so trophonts on them, the method often fails.

First, you must be 100% certain of your diagnosis and that the fish do not have concurrent infections of ich plus something else. This process ONLY works against mild cases of ich.

1) Install a powerful UV sterilizer on the aquarium. A minimum kill factor of greater than 200,000 uWs/cm2 is needed.
2) Ensure that the fish's diet and water quality are the best you can make them.
3) Do not add non-quarantined fish to any system where you are managing ich.
4) Keep the water temperature close to 78 degrees F. Raising the water temperature only makes the parasite reproduce faster
5) Siphon off the tank floor nightly to remove as many tomonts as possible.
6) Employ strong mechanical filtration to trap as many tomites as possible.
7) Hydrogen peroxide dosed at 10 mg/l has been shown to reduce the number of theronts in the water (see note below).
8) Try a proprietary "reef safe" marine ich medication. These rarely cure ich infections on their own, but some may have benefit when combined with other management methods. Avoid the herbal remedies, focus on those that contain peroxide salts (but then do not use point 7 above).


Note - Hydrogen peroxide: This is a popular adjunct method for "ich management". It is much more difficult to use than some people will have you think. H2O2 is an oxidant, and the amount of left reactive in your aquarium's water is dependent on the level of organics available to be oxidized. These amounts are different for each tank and they change with the continued additions of peroxide. Therefore, these simply is no "one dose" that works in all instances. Using a hydrogen peroxide test strip is highly recommended! Here are some resources if you wish to use this material:

Hydrogen peroxide bench testing: https://www.reef2reef.com/ams/hydrogen-peroxide-bench-testing.803/
Calculator for proper dosing: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/fish-disease-calculators.997311/

There is some evidence that using peroxides with UV does not work, as the UV can break down the peroxides.
You also need to examine WHY it is a popular method - is it just because you can purchase peroxide at any drug store?


Jay

I fed live black worms and very specific foods. I think that may assist with some of it.

 

[Lasse]

There is some evidence that using peroxides with UV does not work, as the UV can break down the peroxides.

This is not true - in fact the opposite is true - it works because UV-C catalyzes H2O2 into water and free O and OH radicals. These radicals is the active compounds in killing microorganisms with help of H2O2 - there is commercial systems that combine UV-C and H2O2 as @GARRIGA point out above. Here is an other firm - which systems I have been working with.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[GARRIGA]

This is not true - in fact the opposite is true - it works because UV-C catalyzes H2O2 into water and free O and OH radicals. These radicals is the active compounds in killing microorganisms with help of H2O2 - there is commercial systems that combine UV-C and H2O2 as @GARRIGA point out above. Here is an other firm - which systems I have been working with.

Sincerely Lasse

Been looking into using ozone created by UV lamps at 185nm (AquaUV has an Ozone UVXY combo) then dissipating that gas once injected upstream of the UV-C lamp guessing it behaves the same as with hydrogen peroxide but concerned in how to later solve borate or other OPO produced. GAC would be an option except how do I now gauge when that’s exhausted since yellow water no longer a viable indicator.

Still thinking of how to administer hydrogen peroxide with UV-C as I haven’t seen where that creates the same concerns as Ozone such as borate. Plus not sure ORP feasible means of knowing one has added too much or UV-C didn’t fully dissipate what was administered.

Only one way to find out. Just do it.

 

[Lasse]

Been looking into using ozone created by UV lamps at 185nm (AquaUV has an Ozone UVXY combo) then dissipating that gas once injected upstream of the UV-C lamp guessing it behaves the same as with hydrogen peroxide

Interesting you mention this. UV-C as a catalyst for H2O2 does not work for all UV-C lamps. The one it works best for is mercury/amalgam low pressure lamps. These produce a high amount of the germ killing wavelength of 253.7nm and a smaller amount ozone at 185 nm. The guys working with the UVP system did not say why just this type of lamp works well as a catalyst but I suspect it is the production of ozone that is the key factor.

When I work with this - we just add H2O2 with a dosing pump just downstreams the UV-C lamp - the peroxide has to pass the reaction chamber- I have not try to add it upstreams (i.e. let a part of the H2O2 breakdown (creating oxygen radicals) in the DT and catalyst the rest in the UV-C chamber

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Paul B]

"If" you want to reduce parasites or trophants I feel a diatom filter would be your best bet. I know people use UV and maybe that works, I don't know, but I know they can't get through diatom powder. Just my thoughts.

I don't use a diatom filter for that but I do use one a few times a year to stir up my gravel over my reverse undergravel filter.

 

[GARRIGA]

"If" you want to reduce parasites or trophants I feel a diatom filter would be your best bet. I know people use UV and maybe that works, I don't know, but I know they can't get through diatom powder. Just my thoughts.

I don't use a diatom filter for that but I douse one a few times a year to stir up my gravel over my reverse undergravel filter.

Been considering sediment filtration down to 5 micron as I can step it down from capturing mulm or larger then step it down with a series of dual density such as 75/25 then 25/5 micron. Unknown is how quickly they clog but should be considerably less often then DE. Research tells me ich larger than 10 micron.

Not seeking to eradicate but reduce numbers low enough to allow immunity to build and stay. This would exist before the UV.

 

[GARRIGA]

Interesting you mention this. UV-C as a catalyst for H2O2 does not work for all UV-C lamps. The one it works best for is mercury/amalgam low pressure lamps. These produce a high amount of the germ killing wavelength of 253.7nm and a smaller amount ozone at 185 nm. The guys working with the UVP system did not say why just this type of lamp works well as a catalyst but I suspect it is the production of ozone that is the key factor.

When I work with this - we just add H2O2 with a dosing pump just downstreams the UV-C lamp - the peroxide has to pass the reaction chamber- I have not try to add it upstreams (i.e. let a part of the H2O2 breakdown (creating oxygen radicals) in the DT and catalyst the rest in the UV-C chamber

Sincerely Lasse

Wasn’t aware lamp design mattered but would that which can dissipate ozone be good enough to break down hydrogen peroxide? Here’s an exert from the AquaUV manual I’m considering.

 

[GARRIGA]

Interesting you mention this. UV-C as a catalyst for H2O2 does not work for all UV-C lamps. The one it works best for is mercury/amalgam low pressure lamps. These produce a high amount of the germ killing wavelength of 253.7nm and a smaller amount ozone at 185 nm. The guys working with the UVP system did not say why just this type of lamp works well as a catalyst but I suspect it is the production of ozone that is the key factor.

When I work with this - we just add H2O2 with a dosing pump just downstreams the UV-C lamp - the peroxide has to pass the reaction chamber- I have not try to add it upstreams (i.e. let a part of the H2O2 breakdown (creating oxygen radicals) in the DT and catalyst the rest in the UV-C chamber

Sincerely Lasse

Here’s what I mean by upstream. The UV produces ozone by air passing through the housing external to the casing then injected via Venturi. What I mostly appreciate being no need for skimmer or reactor or means by which the ozone produce escapes directly into the atmosphere as would be the case with a skimmer.

 

[Lasse]

I think we talk about two different techniques here. I suppose that the Ozone from the UV-C is captured between the tube and the quartz glass. In the UVP - the ozone is created in the water (very small amount) if my theory is right. This small amount is enough to catalyze the H2O2 inside the chamber. Instead of a venturi and the special housing we just inject H2O2 at the same place as the venturi is situated in your picture

Here’s what I mean by upstream.

It was what I try to say too - but a somersault in my brain write the opposite Have Edit it

Sincerely Lasse

 

[GARRIGA]

I think we talk about two different techniques here. I suppose that the Ozone from the UV-C is captured between the tube and the quartz glass. In the UVP - the ozone is created in the water (very small amount) if my theory is right. This small amount is enough to catalyze the H2O2 inside the chamber. Instead of a venturi and the special housing we just inject H2O2 at the same place as the venturi is situated in your picture


It was what I try to say too - but a somersault in my brain write the opposite Have Edit it

Sincerely Lasse

Not yet understanding exactly how UV-C interacts with ozone or hydrogen peroxide but it appears it creates radicals which then oxidize that they contact yet have a very short half life which is in milliseconds. I could be completely mistaken understanding this but in the end I’m hoping to obtain the required results of safety administering both or either.

Here’s an article on UV-C and ozone. I’m assuming similar reaction occurring with hydrogen peroxide since both carry an extra oxygen and that’s what oxidizes by robbing hydrogen from other organics resulting ultimately in just co2 which I plan to solve by ensuring effluent released at the surface. This excess co2 does give me some concern I’m still working through.

https://uvresources.com/the-ultraviolet-germicidal-irradiation-uv-c-wavelength/

 

[Jay Hemdal]

This is not true - in fact the opposite is true - it works because UV-C catalyzes H2O2 into water and free O and OH radicals. These radicals is the active compounds in killing microorganisms with help of H2O2 - there is commercial systems that combine UV-C and H2O2 as @GARRIGA point out above. Here is an other firm - which systems I have been working with.

Sincerely Lasse

It is true by my actual testing - the radicals are much more reactive, and do not persist in the water like peroxide does. They are quite literally a "flash in the pan" and do not last long enough to provide any disinfection.

Ozone, (Photozone was one brand) reacts with seawater differently. Some of those ozone-oxidants are very stable and persist for days. Here is a paper I wrote about that:

Reduction of ozone oxidants in synthetic seawater by use of sodium thiosulfate (Journal Article) | OSTI.GOV

The U.S. Department of Energy's Office of Scientific and Technical Information

www.osti.gov

Jay

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Been looking into using ozone created by UV lamps at 185nm (AquaUV has an Ozone UVXY combo) then dissipating that gas once injected upstream of the UV-C lamp guessing it behaves the same as with hydrogen peroxide but concerned in how to later solve borate or other OPO produced. GAC would be an option except how do I now gauge when that’s exhausted since yellow water no longer a viable indicator.

Still thinking of how to administer hydrogen peroxide with UV-C as I haven’t seen where that creates the same concerns as Ozone such as borate. Plus not sure ORP feasible means of knowing one has added too much or UV-C didn’t fully dissipate what was administered.

Only one way to find out. Just do it.

Is it borate that reacts with ozone? I thought it was bromine. Bromine and ozone forms hypobromous acid that is a stable ozone-oxidant that lasts for days in water. What happens is that with continued ozone production, the hypobromous acid builds up faster than it breaks down and it becomes toxic to aquatic life.

Jay

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Not yet understanding exactly how UV-C interacts with ozone or hydrogen peroxide but it appears it creates radicals which then oxidize that they contact yet have a very short half life which is in milliseconds. I could be completely mistaken understanding this but in the end I’m hoping to obtain the required results of safety administering both or either.

Here’s an article on UV-C and ozone. I’m assuming similar reaction occurring with hydrogen peroxide since both carry an extra oxygen and that’s what oxidizes by robbing hydrogen from other organics resulting ultimately in just co2 which I plan to solve by ensuring effluent released at the surface. This excess co2 does give me some concern I’m still working through.

https://uvresources.com/the-ultraviolet-germicidal-irradiation-uv-c-wavelength/

That's what I've found - breaking down H2O2 in seawater with UV-C produces short-lived oxidants.

Back in the early 1980's, there was a device called "Photozone" that used 185nm UV to produce a small amount of ozone that then went into the aquarium. I always loved the smell it made (grin) but the reality was the product was just making unregulated ozone (no ORP controllers back then).

Jay

 

[Lasse]

It is true by my actual testing - the radicals are much more reactive, and do not persist in the water like peroxide does. They are quite literally a "flash in the pan" and do not last long enough to provide any disinfection.

Its total opposite with the experiments we have done - they last enough time to do much better work than H2O2 and UV-C separately. FYI - its not H2O2 that kill microorganism - it is the radicals that is formed when H2O2 breaks down that is that active killing agent in a process that´s named "oxidation". And if you want a delayed action - just add the H2O2 in the DT - you get a slow release of radicals and when it pass the UV-C - you get 100% catalyzation.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Paul B]

I don't know but I am a simple guy with simple ideas. UV with all the confusing and ambiguous chemistry talk about hydrogen peroxide, oxidizers, "Photozone" (no, I don't remember that one) Hypobromous acid, Orp controllers, free radicals, etc. It seems to a simple mind as I have, diatom filters are the simplest thing and not at all ambiguous are the best and easiest thing to use and there is no need to calculate anything. We also know it is removing parasites which we don't know with Ozone because the strength of ozone or UV varies with the age of the thing, strength of it, and if it is used properly with the correct contact time.

But maybe it's me. I like simple things that work the first time and every time with no room for doubt and no ambiguity.

 

[GARRIGA]

Is it borate that reacts with ozone? I thought it was bromine. Bromine and ozone forms hypobromous acid that is a stable ozone-oxidant that lasts for days in water. What happens is that with continued ozone production, the hypobromous acid builds up faster than it breaks down and it becomes toxic to aquatic life.

Jay

Not any expert with Borate but from what Randy is telling me that is created by ozone interacting with Bromine as you indicate and only solution being GAC. My concern there being I'd know when to change GAC once water turned yellow but that can no longer be relied on because ozone removes yellow. Can't locate any reasonable test for Borate as any available only test for bromine. Pool supplies had several test strips.