Ich and Velvet and not improving

[hrdneglcry]

It clears. Why would it not be in the column? The fish are not on the rocks and sand. Hiw are they getting it if its not in the column? They advertise the filter as filtering ich. Anyway its clearing up now. I use the filter. Its capable of catching the ich. Can't see obviously if it is.

I’ve used diatom filters since the early 1970’s - they just don’t cure active ich infections. There is the dwell time issue, plus blow by, plus the fact that the ich theronts emerge from the cysts in the early morning and attach to the fish at the bottom of the tank - never going through the filter.

Yes. Well thank you and thanks Jay. Epsom salt killed all my coral so I guess I could have used copper. I used Ich X in a 75 a few years ago coupled with a Vortex Diatom filter. I did not let the tank sit fallow. The outbreak never returned. I ran the filter still after the medicine cleared it. The Niger Trigger spots are fading. The Sailfin Tangs eye has cleared and his spots are gone. I don't say diatom cures it. I say it asssts in diminishing the Ich that is attacking the fish.

 

[Tamberav]

The clearing you are seeing could just be the normal lifecycle of ich. Spots are supposed to disappear on the fish.

The marineland polishing filter can actually be primed with Diatomaceous earth and used as a diatom filter and is still sold today.

Fish can fight off ich and live in a tank with ich… but it can visibly return should their immune systems get low or times of stress.

What you are practicing is called ich management. I did do this for many years, ran a huge oversized UV (expensive as heck!) and fed live foods/best foods imaginable. It seemed to work "okay" but I do think it fails just as often or more. My potters angel always had a few spots that would come and go. My Starkii damsel decided to pick a fight with my spawning clownfish and my female clownfish who had never shown spots (I think I had her 8 years at that point) one day was covered from the constant stress. At that point I decided to pull all fish and QT and fallow. After awhile I just got sick of the BS and wondering if I would get an outbreak or if a blizzard would knock out power and all the fish would get stressed and what if ich showed up.. blah blah.

The main thing is... even if ich isn't visibly present, it can still be in your tank in low levels in the gills and come back if the fish are weakened in some way. Velvet is NOT manageable in this way.

It seems you are hard fast on taking this approach, I caution you to watch your fish very closely. The parasite is SUPPOSED to clear, this is part of the cycle and does not mean the treatment is working. So I would not sing praises to ich X just yet and remain on alert and be ready to protect your fish investment should anything look to be getting worse. Just make sure you don't wait until ich is in an advance stage and the fish may not be savable, they have to survive the stress of being moved to a QT and can not do that on deaths door.

Copper does not expire, I always keep a bottle on hand just in case. This way you are not wasting time going to the LFS hoping they have the right med or waiting on amazon.

 

[hrdneglcry]

Ok. Copper kills inverts though right? I did not mean to be hard set . I ran a 35 tank Cichlid hatchery for many years. I used these filters for maintainence. There was a product called Clout by Mardel. It was years ago now. Many hatchery keepers used this for Ich. I found when I switched to salt that Clout worked in Salt applications. It was not reefsafe but I had a FOWLR. It worked very well if I caught the Ich. But something happened and you can't get that anymore. Copper scares me a but I am drifiting back towards a Predator Reef, so I can use it. I WAS running the skimmer at the beginning of this treatment which you aren't supposed to. Its off now. In freshwater Ich is not much trouble. You can get Ich medication cheap and it works. Although Clout was the best and treated other things and I kept that onhand. If Clout were still being sold I would use it in a Predator Reef. Just remove the crabs.
But I did cure this 4 years ago in a 75 and was runnin a 90 also.

 

[Dom]

This is day four and it had not cleared up.

It takes longer than that to see results.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Ok. Copper kills inverts though right? I did not mean to be hard set . I ran a 35 tank Cichlid hatchery for many years. I used these filters for maintainence. There was a product called Clout by Mardel. It was years ago now. Many hatchery keepers used this for Ich. I found when I switched to salt that Clout worked in Salt applications. It was not reefsafe but I had a FOWLR. It worked very well if I caught the Ich. But something happened and you can't get that anymore. Copper scares me a but I am drifiting back towards a Predator Reef so I can use it. I WAS running the skimmer which you aren't supposed to at the beginning if this treatment. Its off now. In freshwater Ich is not much trouble. You can get Ich medication cheap and it works. Although Clout was the best and treated other things and I kept that in hand. If Clout were still being sold I would use it in a Predator Reef. Just remove the crabs.

You can run skimmer however the unit can go nuts with foaming at first , so simply take the cup off. Coppersafe which is the safest form is done in a separate treatment tank and not display in which inverts and coral can remain.

 

[Tamberav]

Ok. Copper kills inverts though right? I did not mean to be hard set . I ran a 35 tank Cichlid hatchery for many years. I used these filters for maintainence. There was a product called Clout by Mardel. It was years ago now. Many hatchery keepers used this for Ich. I found when I switched to salt that Clout worked in Salt applications. It was not reefsafe but I had a FOWLR. It worked very well if I caught the Ich. But something happened and you can't get that anymore. Copper scares me a but I am drifiting back towards a Predator Reef, so I can use it. I WAS running the skimmer at the beginning of this treatment which you aren't supposed to. Its off now. In freshwater Ich is not much trouble. You can get Ich medication cheap and it works. Although Clout was the best and treated other things and I kept that onhand. If Clout were still being sold I would use it in a Predator Reef. Just remove the crabs.
But I did cure this 4 years ago in a 75 and was runnin a 90 also.

yes, I keep it on hand just in case I need to pull fish and put them in a quarantine to treat. Then you can run the display without fish for 45 days at 81 degrees making sure not to transfer ANYTHING between tanks so the parasite can die off as it will have no fish to complete its life cycle.

Clout was removed because of cancer risk and neurotoxins. So it wasn't deemed safe for people to be buying off the shelf for fish I guess.

You can still get the drug but it is a pesticide for lawn care.... I can't remember if it is still sold for Koi ponds.

Freshwater and Saltwater ich are not the same parasite, I have no idea of the meds saftey for reef fish.

I would not say a pesticide soup is any less scary than copper. Especially when it isn't tested for reef fish.

Hanna high range copper test has made copper safer then it used to be imo.

 

[MnFish1]

Velvet is smaller than Ich supposedly. So that is why I say Velvet and Ich. May all be Ich. Definitely there are large white spots that is Ich. Not a lot of people have experience with Diatom filters. They are not really made anymore for this hobby. Diatoms are smaller than Ich. They filter anything large than them out of the water column. I used them when I added crushed coral to a new tank. I did not even rinse it. They make the wanter crustal clear. I only knew of two. The whisper Diatomagic and Vortex. I can only say I've cured ich in this manner. And currently I only have gsp which is suffering fron some bad advice I took treating a blockage in a fish. When I treated before in the 75 with regular I think I took the crabs out.

Also I turned off the skimmer per the directions. I had it on for the first four treatments.

Actually - I'm going to slightly disagree with you. You can't really say you 'cured ich'. I believe you might have decreased ich levels in the tank to a point whereby the levels are so small that it is 'controlled'. I have great experience with diatom filters. I don't think you've cured anything - BUT - I agree - you've helped 'control' it. And - in fact it may very well die out in your tank. Can you relate what the issue with the GSP is? Thanks! - Would be nice to see a picture of your tank

 

[MnFish1]

I’ve used diatom filters since the early 1970’s - they just don’t cure active ich infections. There is the dwell time issue, plus blow by, plus the fact that the ich theronts emerge from the cysts in the early morning and attach to the fish at the bottom of the tank - never going through the filter.

This is in concert with the literature - which is that lets say you have tang xxx who has ich - it usually goes to sleep under rock yyy. The Theronts are released in the early AM - such that the 'sleeping fish' is re-infected.

 

[hrdneglcry]

I think this ich x works if you catch the ich early. If not i believe copper is the only cure. Also if you use a diatom filter do not breathe the dust.Years ago I ised Clout and it was the same way. I had low loightong in a FOWLR and did not see my Argus Geouper was completely covered in Ich. Copper was needed but I did not know. It was too late for the Clout to work but I did see it work when caught early. I lost my Blue Jaw here this tume. My Niger and Sailfin are recovering. I tan rhe skimmer toonling or I may have had better results because I caught it early enough.

 

[MnFish1]

I think this ich x works if you catch the ich early. If not i believe copper is the only cure. Also if you use a diatom filter do not breathe the dust.Years ago I ised Clout and it was the same way. I had low loightong in a FOWLR and did not see my Argus Geouper was completely covered in Ich. Copper was needed but I did not know. It was too late for the Clout to work but I did see it work when caught early. I lost my Blue Jaw here this tume. My Niger and Sailfin are recovering. I tan rhe skimmer toonling or I may have had better results because I caught it early enough.

I don't like to disparage products. The problem with some of these treatments is that Ich itself can appear to come and go on its own. Making it seem like a given product is helping when it may not be

 

[Fish Fan]

I'm not an expert with fish diseases, and I don't mean to be argumentative or sound rude.

But you started a thread called "Ich and Velvet Not Improving" and you have some of the best reefers in the hobby advising you, and your position seems to be, 'what I'm doing will work because it might maybe have worked in freshwater one time in the past, so I'm just going to keep doing what I'm doing'.

I'm not sure why you asked for help only to ignore the advice other reefers are giving you.

As always, I wish you the best of luck with your tank and your Ich problem.

 

[hrdneglcry]

I'm not an expert with fish diseases, and I don't mean to be argumentative or sound rude.

But you started a thread called "Ich and Velvet Not Improving" and you have some of the best reefers in the hobby advising you, and your position seems to be, 'what I'm doing will work because it might maybe have worked in freshwater one time in the past, so I'm just going to keep doing what I'm doing'.

I'm not sure why you asked for help only to ignore the advice other reefers are giving you.

As always, I wish you the best of luck with your tank and your Ich problem.

Actually I am agreement with the beat in this site and thankful for their advice. And I said that the treatment I used was for salt. Two different times. I did do a third time
in salt woth Clout but the Ich was too far along for Clout to work.

 

[Fish Fan]

Actually I am agreement with the beat in this site and thankful for their advice. And I said that the treatment I used was for salt. Two different times. I did do a third time
in salt woth Clout but the Ich was too far along for Clout to work.

No worries, you do you.

Best of luck with your tank!

 

[ProvidenceTidalReef]

There is a 2 part ick killer that i used to use. Flux and metroplex i think the names are. Worked really well. Use it on the food and feed the fish. With pumps off . Dont let touch corals.
You could also try a bath in saftey stop.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

There is a 2 part ick killer that i used to use. Flux and metroplex i think the names are. Worked really well. Use it on the food and feed the fish. With pumps off . Dont let touch corals.
You could also try a bath in saftey stop.

I think you mean focus and metroplex? That combination is commonly used, but is not very effective against external protozoans like ich. It needs to be dosed at a specific level - 1% metro by weight in the food mix. Higher doses are more effective, but metro is very bitter so the fish often refuse the higher dose.
Safety stop, any dip really, needs to have the fish move to a new tank after the dip. Putting them back in the same tank just allows for reinfection.

 

[Cool tangs]

Another option if you have the cash, get a high quality over sized UV and run the correct flow for 180,000 microwatts. I had good success with a big oversized UV running at the correct flow rates

 

[hrdneglcry]

I’ve used diatom filters since the early 1970’s - they just don’t cure active ich infections. There is the dwell time issue, plus blow by, plus the fact that the ich theronts emerge from the cysts in the early morning and attach to the fish at the bottom of the tank - never going through the filter.

Hey,

Thank you and to all who posted. You guys have helped me much over the years and Jay you have helped me understand things more than I did. I am reluctant to use copper because of my large hermit population and it basically makes the rock unuseable for anybody who wants to grow any coral. But I know in certain situations it is use copper or the fish will die. Its likely the easisest and most effective way (copper). But thank you all for your posts. The Black Indian Trigger jumped out during this. My V Tail died from 3 months no eating due to an obstruction. The Blue Jaw Trigger was killed by the ich. I am left with a sailfin tang and a niger trigger. they are improving but its water changes daily and more money in meds. And thats how it will continue Its a large system. If it gets worse I will have to catch the crabs and use copper. I have two eels also. Everybody is eating and the verdict is not in yet. I'd tell anyone readong this if you don't want to chance it then use copper. Because this method with the meds can work but only if you catch it early. But you have to change the water daily to help remove the ich and then the meds also. For a small tank this is more practical but my system is 300 gallons and it make it financially difficult with the salt and the meds. Thank you for your posts.

It has fallen off the fish. For now the weather is holding in the tank. If i had no inverts I would have used copper. But I did use this method before with success.

 

[ProvidenceTidalReef]

I think you mean focus and metroplex? That combination is commonly used, but is not very effective against external protozoans like ich. It needs to be dosed at a specific level - 1% metro by weight in the food mix. Higher doses are more effective, but metro is very bitter so the fish often refuse the higher dose.
Safety stop, any dip really, needs to have the fish move to a new tank after the dip. Putting them back in the same tank just allows for reinfection.

Yes those were the names. I have used many times with success. Feed your fish. Then blow off your rocks and sand. Do a water change and repeat you will also have success if the problem isnt already killing fish. Also if you can afford it, go buy a 30 gal breeder just for quarantine,a peice of pvc pipe, heater and a simple powerhead or hob filter. Ive had to use copper on 1 fish so far that the metroplex and focus didnt work on as fast as i would have liked. Best of luck to you.

 

[redeleven]

My tank got ich and velvet both. I am treating with Ich X Marine. This is day four and it had not cleared up. I did a 90 gallon water change prior to the treatment. The tank is a 180. It seems a little has cleared But the Blue Jaw Trigger does not appear to have improved. I contacted Hikari and was told Marine version is a little leas strong the standard Ich X due to corals. i wondered if I were to use the standard Ich X (nor marine) if it would kill corals or my crabs. I removed all of the carbon prior to the treatment.

Hi. If you actually had velvet, your fish would likely be dead after four days without copper treatment. If you have corals, you'll need to treat the fish in a separate tank. Copper will kill your coral. You'll need to let your tank with coral Fallow for about 75 days.

 

[jmcdona6]

I think people here are being too gentle. There may be a million ways to cure Ich. You may have stumbled on a special way of doing it...your tank your call. However, there is only one way to do so that is proven to work in controlled settings, professional facilities and with repeated high rates of success through the hobby.

Step 1: Remove all fish and treat outside the display. Whether that be with copper, tank transfer method (debatable), or a combination of the two (my preference).

Step 2: Either (A) leave your display fallow for several months (exact time is debatable - depends on your risk tolerance) or (B) break down and sanitize your display tank (clean and let dry out). Option B also requires you to dry out or toss your live rock and corals unless you want to leave them in a fallow container in accordance with Option A.

Step 3: Once display is reset/fallowed, and fish have gone through treatment and observed no further signs of Ich, you can then add them back to the display.

Details are available online if you research. Very disruptive. Very painful. Which is why most people are either very serious about prevention (QT, paying premium on sourcing, etc) or they have resigned to Ich management. If you chose the latter I don't think you should waste money dumping thinks like Ich X in your tank. It won't work and is just contaminating the water.