Ich and Acanthurus tangs - Years of experience and ich management

[4FordFamily]

My friend told me if I rise the Tmp up to 82 it will also kill the ick. Yes or no? What is pro and con on that

That will not have any impact on marine ich - but it will increase stress to the fish which will exacerbate the problem, if anything. This decreases the oxygen "capacity" of the water too (warmer water does this)

It MAY speed the life cycle of the parasite as well, which would further worsen the results, but there's no definitive proof that this last point is the case.

 

[Humblefish]

^^ Agree; the "warm water" theory is more applicable to FW Ich (Ichthyophthirius multifiliis). It has been proven to speed up that parasite's life cycle: http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/fa006

Unfortunately, no direct evidence exists (yet) to support this same theory for Marine Ich (Cryptocaryon irritans). The correlation between temperature and Crypto seems to be intentionally kept vague in every publication I have read.

 

[jinbing0905]

Thx

 

[jinbing0905]

Can I add chloroquine Phosphate to the DT if my tank is FOT? Is Cp same as copper

 

[4FordFamily]

Can I add chloroquine Phosphate to the DT if my tank is FOT? Is Cp same as copper

Sorry I don't know what FOT is -- I fail haha.

 

[jinbing0905]

Sorry I don't know what FOT is -- I fail haha.

Fish only tank

 

[4FordFamily]

I would avoid adding any meds to a display tank -- especially with the inability to measure and test CP - I wouldn't want all of those things that can absorb meds there -- it'll undermine its effectiveness

 

[melypr1985]

Is Cp same as copper

They are not the same, but in some respects they are similar. CP has less side effects than copper, but neither should be used in a display. It's unknown just how much CP would be absorbed in the rocks ect, and since it can't be tested by the average hobbyist, it's best to avoid that all together and stick with the peace of mind a QT offers.

 

[jinbing0905]

I have too many fish my qt is not big enough so I don't know what to do(

 

[Humblefish]

^^ Agree with @4FordFamily and @melypr1985

Plus biofilm in a DT will degrade CP and other medications: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/qt-and-biofilm.292878/

Except for copper, which is not a "true" medication.

 

[melypr1985]

I have too many fish my qt is not big enough so I don't know what to do(

There are things you can do in this situation, though they all involve getting something to use as a QT. Rubbermaid makes stock tanks you can keep large fish in (or large numbers of fish). Craigslist is full of empty used tanks that you can possibly get for cheap (or cheap considering what it would cost to replace all or most of your fish).

 

[jinbing0905]

Once with but CP In the qt when should we do a water change and how much? How long does this treatment take?

 

[Humblefish]

Once with but CP In the qt when should we do a water change and how much? How long does this treatment take?

Do a WC as needed when ammonia is present or just to tidy up the QT. Dose the replacement water with Chloroquine BEFORE adding it to the QT, so therapeutic levels remain constant.

Standard treatment time is 30 days, same as copper.

 

[jinbing0905]

I have wc every other day why my ammonia still present

 

[melypr1985]

I have wc every other day why my ammonia still present

You may need to add a bacteria in a bottle product to help the filter cycle a bit faster.

 

[jinbing0905]

Ok I see

 

[4FordFamily]

Yes this means the tank is not cycled completely.

 

[Salty Lemon]

What I loved most about this article (besides the helpful information) is that you admitted to making mistakes or not knowing when your first started the hobby. There are likely more newbies than experts on this forum, and to read an article written like this, by one of the respected veterans on here, makes the newbie reader realize that they can get through this. They can make changes, and the problems they have or been having, can be fixed. When I first started out in the hobby. I was told by my lfs that ich is everywhere and there is no way eliminate it. Only the wealthy can support a proper quarantine system, he said. He said the best way to manage it is through healthy water and proper diet. So I believed him. I was new and I took everything this person said as "gold". So I ended up battling ich for was seems like forever. It is so tough starting out. A new reefer tries so hard, but frequently feels like they are making mistakes. This article may be one of my favorites. Thank you.

 

[4FordFamily]

What I loved most about this article (besides the helpful information) is that you admitted to making mistakes or not knowing when your first started the hobby. There are likely more newbies than experts on this forum, and to read an article written like this, by one of the respected veterans on here, makes the newbie reader realize that they can get through this. They can make changes, and the problems they have or been having, can be fixed. When I first started out in the hobby. I was told by my lfs that ich is everywhere and there is no way eliminate it. Only the wealthy can support a proper quarantine system, he said. He then said they way to control ich, is to keep the water and your fish healthy. So I believed him. I was new and I took everything this person said as "gold". So I ended up battling ich for was seems like forever. It is so tough starting out. A new reefer tries so hard, but frequently feels like they are making mistakes. This article may be one of my favorites. Thank you.

Thank you very much for the kind words. I make a myriad of mistakes and continue to do so. I believe most of us probably do. I try to ensure others know of my “failures”, not just my successes for their own consideration, and perhaps when evaluating whether or not to follow any suggestions I make on a given subject matter.

It is unfortunate how many people believe things that have been scientifically debunked, and how much information is out there that will not likely help beginners or even experts alike. For example, some things are “possible” but highly unlikely. “Best practices” versus possibilities, so to speak.

Thanks again for the very kind words, I’m glad you enjoyed the article. Happy reefing and God bless!

 

[SixtyFeetUnder]

Ich and Acanthurus tangs - Years of experience and ich management

Alright folks,

I wanted to share some pretty shameful realities about my past and dealing with Acanthurus tangs.

To anyone that doesn't know, common Acanthurus tangs include Powder Blue, Powder Brown, Goldrim/white cheek, Achilles, Sohal, Clown, Carribean Blue, Orange Shoulder, Chocolate, and many less common tangs.

Photo of Orange Shoulder Tang by R2R member @RZ5T​

I managed ich in my systems for years and killed perhaps 20-30% of my NON-Acanthurus tangs because they could not build up resistance to ich. Zebrasoma tangs, SOME naso, and some hippo tangs eventually seemed to thrive in systems with ich present on occasion (this is known as ich management).

I've unfortunately witnessed dozens of Achilles and PBT entered in to systems with ich (but whose residents had zero symptoms and you would never know ich was present except that it may affect new additions) that within days to a few weeks were very badly affected and eventually succumbed.

Photo of Powder Blue Tang by R2R member @ChristopherKriens​

I had a couple short term wins though - an Achilles bought from another hobbyist lived for about a year with ich with few symptoms but occasionally would get minor (but noticeable) breakouts. Eventually, it succumbed like the rest.

I feel like a terrible person for being so hard headed, but I probably lost 10 Achilles tangs to ich (or removed them and treated them then tried again until they died) and probably 20 PBT. I could not for the life of me understand why they would not live managing ich as all of my other genus of tangs had for YEARS.

I would change something (new skimmer, better skimmer, two skimmers, more flow, lots of macro algae, etc) that I thought would help and try again with no success. It was very frustrating and evil.

Now, I can keep 90% of PBT and 100% of my Achilles tangs alive long enough to sell or keep SINCE treating them in copper. This makes me feel even worse. The PBTs I did lose since came very emaciated and had little chance upon arrival.

I also killed probably 3 powder brown tangs the same way, and 6 clown tangs. This is horrible to recall.

I had Caribbean blue tangs live up to 2 months managing ich but eventually died, and one that when treated properly I sold to a friend in good health.

Photo of Caribbean blue tang by R2R member @Luisra​

This all was over the course of 12 years but honestly that doesn't make it a lot better.

The reality is that 99% of my efforts trying to manage ich (and not quarantining properly) failed with acanthurus tangs. 100% if you take in to account that 1 year alive is absolutely NOT a success with a fish.

I am telling you all this so that you do not continue to kill them as I did. Don't be as bullheaded. I am not proud of my Acanthurus tang massacre history but I am at least hoping that I can prevent future loss by telling the stories.

Those of you that don't qt - 99% of you have ich in your system. If you've ever seen a fish with ich in your system and have not removed all fish, treated them properly, and ran the tank fallow for 9-10 weeks, with almost certainty you have ich. With some marine species, you can do that successfully long-term. Not Acanthurus tangs. There may be a rare exception, but why kill fish unnecessarily?

Photo of Achilles Tang in Quarantine by R2R member @A_CoupleClowns​

I had lots of success with Zebrasoma tangs. The larger the hardier they were with regards to building up resistances to ich. That said, I still don't believe that doing that is moral, ethical, or good fish husbandry.

So what happens when you try to manage ich with an Acanthurus tang?

Let me speak from experience watching dozens suffer before I could catch them (always too late) to treat:

The parasite slowly increases its presence on the fish. Starts on the gills out of sight, then on to fins, then all over the head and perhaps other areas. They increase in numbers.

Simultaneously the gills become more and more damaged and the fish is increasingly less able to breathe and very slowly suffocates over weeks.

The fish can be fat in the belly but it's lateral line and bones will begin to show. The parasite literally sucks the nourishment and life out of the fish. A morbidly obese tang in the belly region will eventually appear emaciated throughout the rest of its body as it suffers more and more. They will scratch, breathe heavy, lose color, swim sporadically which fades to hiding and becoming less active. They will eventually stop eating, and the parasite will finally suck the remaining hint of life out of them.

If well fed and fat (lots of nori) the process can take 2-6 weeks before killing it off.

It is horrible to watch, I somehow justified it by claiming the fish was weak and would have died anyway. The above experiences largely negate that. It's awful to watch them suffer this way on a glim hope that I will magically start warding them off. With my success over the past few years with these fish I can't believe I used to have trouble before. This is so much easier and more rewarding (treating all fish and properly quarantining).

I've seen this process happen to hippo tangs that even disappeared for a few days only to emerge apparently ich free. I guess I expected this to happen with Acanthurus tangs. I assure you, it will not.

If you cannot afford to qt, or don't have the space, or don't want to deal with the trouble, then do the oceans a favor and either stick to only the hardiest species (some of which you will still kill) or perhaps leave the hobby.

It's our responsibility to these fish to keep them healthy.

Just reading this years later but this has been my experience in a beautiful display I started early to this year. Most of the fish are fine but a powder blue, powder brown, and Caribbean blue all succumbed to ich or potentially velvet. It’s in there and very hard to get small fish like a 6 line or hider like the Midas blenny out. My hippo and kole also lost the fight. A big ugly yellow is the only tang I’ve kept without a sign. Maybe Zebrasoma should be all I try for a few years. Thanks for this write up.