Hydros and float switches

[BZOFIQ]

Something to note, there is a difference between the 0-10V input channel on a Hydros device and a Apex input channel on a PM1/2/3,etc. Standard apex inputs can only detect open/closed switches (basically 0 and 1 logic). The 0-10V input on a hydros device is a full analog input, meaning you can show discrete voltages, not just high/low logic. Effectively a 0-10V input channel on Hydros is much closer to the input channel on a Neptune ASM Module, which are $100+ just for 1 channel and on Hydros you get 4 channels per port.

Two things to note here.

Most inputs used in this hobby are of the analog N/C or N/O type so while I see the addition of 0-10V inputs as really good for Hydros it doesnt solve the problem of how small a number of analog inputs is provided with each controller.

Apex does have a module for $110 (FMM) that is able to do more than 0&1 or the LLS would not work. that's 4 ports for little over a hundy.

 

[JeffB418]

The big issue is that you cant just migrate 1 to 1 from Neptune to Hydros in terms of raw switch inputs like this. They aren't apples to apples. Hydros does provide an advantage in some cases. IE a 6 input switch box on apex takes 6 discrete inputs, but on Hydros you can get away with using a single 0-10V input (with caveats). For level sensing, you can use the Neptune LLS on a 0-10V input as well as a backup sensor compared to using discrete floats. But for raw discrete inputs, hydros doesnt have a solution.

 

[BZOFIQ]

You're forgetting the extra $100 worth of cables to connect them together lol. So let's say $2500.

Apex included the cable in the box so yes I didnt think about it.

Hydros really needs a controller with 4 (or more) 0-10v inputs - then you can use the splitter cables or breakout boxes from JB for 16 discrete inputs for (hopefully) under $200. That would be killer.

Nailed it! Would make moving between controllers much more enticing.

On the same note, Apex needs a module that would allow relays be operated in the same fashion a power strip is operated - 12 per module for under $200 would be a killer

 

[BZOFIQ]

IE a 6 input switch box on apex takes 6 discrete inputs, but on Hydros you can get away with using a single 0-10V input (with caveats).

How does one use 6 discreet inputs on a single 0-10V input Hydros provides?

 

[JeffB418]

How does one use 6 discreet inputs on a single 0-10V input Hydros provides?

Using a resistor tree like this. Well ok 5 switch inputs (if using the supplied 5V pin). But the caveat is only 1 switch can be triggered at once unless the 5V switch is triggered and it will override everything.

 

[javajaws]

Using a resistor tree like this. Well ok 5 switch inputs (if using the supplied 5V pin). But the caveat is only 1 switch can be triggered at once unless the 5V switch is triggered and it will override everything.

Yeah - you can get 5 but they can only be momentary contacts. Because if you close the 2v and 3v at the same time you get 5v, etc.

Lots more info on the Hydros forums I'm sure but I really like JB Aquatic's site - they've got a lot of good info on there:

https://www.jbaquaticsllc.com/hydros-tutorials

 

[BZOFIQ]

Using a resistor tree like this. Well ok 5 switch inputs (if using the supplied 5V pin). But the caveat is only 1 switch can be triggered at once unless the 5V switch is triggered and it will override everything.

Got excited for a second but the caveat renders it unacceptable in many situations. While one could see some uses I'd say this is a recipe for disaster.

 

[JeffB418]

Yeah - you can get 5 but they can only be momentary contacts. Because if you close the 2v and 3v at the same time you get 5v, etc.

Lots more info on the Hydros forums I'm sure but I really like JB Aquatic's site - they've got a lot of good info on there:

https://www.jbaquaticsllc.com/hydros-tutorials

Closing 2V and 3V actually causes the resistance to parallel sum and actually will generate a voltage between 3-4V.

Also I am JBA =)

 

[JeffB418]

Got excited for a second but the caveat renders it unacceptable in many situations. While one could see some uses I'd say this is a recipe for disaster.

Yeah this application is good for mode selection, but otherwise not.

Now if you wanted to get funky... it would be possible to use 1 0-10V channel for 3 discrete inputs. Basically using encoding. with 3 switches you have 8 diff actual combinations. You'd have to use a microcontroller or a digital to analog circuit specifically designed for this, but you could encode those 8 states to 8 voltages. Then in Hydros you program those 8 states as seperate inputs. Hydros does have the advanced logic outputs that support combing up to 9 inputs with and/or (not any input too). So technically with some planning and logic, you could map all of your cases to actions or outputs.... its just alot of work hahaa... BUT it is entirely possible! So in theory (while not completely practical) you could use 12 discrete independent switches on 4 0-10V channels on 1 hydros device with a 0-10V port.

S1 S2 S3 -> Output Voltage
0 0 0 => 1V
1 0 0 => 2V
0 1 0 => 3V
1 1 0 => 4V
0 0 1 => 5V
1 0 1 => 6V
0 1 1 => 7V
1 1 1 => 8V

 

[BZOFIQ]

Yeah this application is good for mode selection, but otherwise not.

Now if you wanted to get funky... it would be possible to use 1 0-10V channel for 3 discrete inputs. Basically using encoding. with 3 switches you have 8 diff actual combinations. You'd have to use a microcontroller or a digital to analog circuit specifically designed for this, but you could encode those 8 states to 8 voltages. Then in Hydros you program those 8 states as seperate inputs. Hydros does have the advanced logic outputs that support combing up to 9 inputs with and/or (not any input too). So technically with some planning and logic, you could map all of your cases to actions or outputs.... its just alot of work hahaa... BUT it is entirely possible! So in theory (while not completely practical) you could use 12 discrete independent switches on 4 0-10V channels on 1 hydros device with a 0-10V port.

S1 S2 S3 -> Output Voltage
0 0 0 => 1V
1 0 0 => 2V
0 1 0 => 3V
1 1 0 => 4V
0 0 1 => 5V
1 0 1 => 6V
0 1 1 => 7V
1 1 1 => 8V

Very complicated workaround if one could call it that ....but at least technically possible - not for the faint of heart though

 

[JeffB418]

Very complicated workaround if one could call it that ....but at least technically possible - not for the faint of heart though

Yeah completely out of the box, but its kinda awesome you can do something like that.

 

[BZOFIQ]

Yeah completely out of the box, but its kinda awesome you can do something like that.

A lot can be done with 0-10V and 4-20mA signals; there are so many industrial sensors that could be used in this hobby.

Hydros must have listened when I brought it up to Terrence (Neptune) at the show - he of course dismissed it.

 

[n2585722]

Yes, that's what i am saying. 15 controllers to get to 55 inputs is !TON! of money.

Retail wise it would take 10 x PM1 modules at a cost of $950 to get an additional 60 inputs - what would the same cost on Hydros' ecosystem?

If I take the Hydros XS as an example I would need 15 of them to get the same 60 input ports - at a cost of $2400! OUCH!

Am I wrong with my math?

I could consolidate some and get rid of some of the controllers now and still have all the inputs and outputs where I need them but I did not get the newer controllers for those inputs. One had 2 dosing pumps on it and the 4 sense ports which I did not need but it was still a good deal for the pumps which I now use for AWC. I also have 2 X10's those also have 4 sense ports each but I did not get them for the sense ports bus some are now in use since they were there to use. I already had a Archon controlling the tank but decided to give the Hydros a try right after they first came out so I got a X4 starter kit for the garage and it was originally for 0-10v inputs. I use them to show the water level in my 2 reservoirs and mix tank in the garage at the RODI unit. I slowly transferred over things from the Archon to the Hydros and now Hydros controls everything. To begin with I was passing signals between the Hydros and Archon using relays and switch ports for Archon and sense ports on the Hydros. Below is a photo of my control board in the garage when I still had both controllers setup out there. At the time there were no Hydros controllers at the tank but the Hydros was controlling the ATO and AWC pumps. Now there are not as many relays on the DIN rail and the Digital Aquatics modules are no longer there.

 

[BZOFIQ]

I could consolidate some and get rid of some of the controllers now and still have all the inputs and outputs where I need them but I did not get the newer controllers for those inputs. One had 2 dosing pumps on it and the 4 sense ports which I did not need but it was still a good deal for the pumps which I now use for AWC. I also have 2 X10's those also have 4 sense ports each but I did not get them for the sense ports bus some are now in use since they were there to use. I already had a Archon controlling the tank but decided to give the Hydros a try right after they first came out so I got a X4 starter kit for the garage and it was originally for 0-10v inputs. I use them to show the water level in my 2 reservoirs and mix tank in the garage at the RODI unit. I slowly transferred over things from the Archon to the Hydros and now Hydros controls everything. To begin with I was passing signals between the Hydros and Archon using relays and switch ports for Archon and sense ports on the Hydros. Below is a photo of my control board in the garage when I still had both controllers setup out there. At the time there were no Hydros controllers at the tank but the Hydros was controlling the ATO and AWC pumps. Now there are not as many relays on the DIN rail and the Digital Aquatics modules are no longer there.

I like how your oscilloscope is showing the daily pH swings in your setup

 

[n2585722]

I like how your oscilloscope is showing the daily pH swings in your setup

I don't remember what I was doing with it at the time. I also had my water level sensor circuits breadboarded at the time. I also work on lots of electronics devices including camcorders. I don't normally do those at home though. I think the photo was in 2021 and I only had the three Hydros controllers then. Two X2's and an X4. They did not have the XD or Kraken back then and I needed more drive ports to control the three pumps and 2 solenoids. I also used the sense ports for the float switches on the mix tank, fresh salt water reservoir and DI reservoir which are 20 gallon Brute cans under the workbench.

 

[BZOFIQ]

I don't remember what I was doing with it at the time. I also had my water level sensor circuits breadboarded at the time. I also work on lots of electronics devices including camcorders. I don't normally do those at home though. I think the photo was in 2021 and I only had the three Hydros controllers then. Two X2's and an X4. They did not have the XD or Kraken back then and I needed more drive ports to control the three pumps and 2 solenoids. I also used the sense ports for the float switches on the mix tank, fresh salt water reservoir and DI reservoir which are 20 gallon Brute cans under the workbench.

an updated pic is in order then

 

[n2585722]

an updated pic is in order then

Unfortunately I cannot take a photo right now but not much has changed on the board other than only 4 relays are left on the DIN rail and only one of the wifi strips is still on the board and all of the Digital Aquatics things are gone. I have an XD and Minnow out there but they are not on the board yet. I am not using any of the drive ports on the XD at this time. The Minnow I replaced the two AWC pumps with the dosing pumps on it. So I am trying smart dosing pumps for AWC and ATO. The big difference is they require schedules to work. There is also a XS controller mounted between the two X2's. The one below is a more recent photo but it is still in 2021 and still has the Digital Aquatics modules but does have the XS in place.

Here is some photos of the controllers at the tank. The first photo is my X3 and an XS which were the first two controllers at the tank and they are in the stand where the modules from the first controller were at. They are gone but the Archon head unit is there in the photo since at that time it still controller the lighting. The second photo is an XP8 shoe horned in the back cabinet where 2 PC4's used to be. The third is a wave engine shoe horned into the other side of the back cabinet where another PC4 was at. The forth photo is some more of the controller on a homemade control board that sits next to the tank.