How deadly is 0 phosphates?

[Formulator]

I’d either add more, or switch to food grade sodium phosphate to give you assurance you are adding enough.

This is the way. If you are intimidated by the DIY route of mixing up your own solution, Brightwell also makes a product called neophos that will similarly allow precise dosing.

 

[jayteerq]

While that TM product may work fine,, it isn’t directly adding detectable phosphate so it is hard to judge a needed dose.

I’d either add more, or switch to food grade sodium phosphate to give you assurance you are adding enough.

It can take a lot of any product to raise phosphate since some of it will bind to rock and sand.

So would bright well neo phos be the same as the tm product? Or better more detectable? I seen a lot of people using that on youtube

 

[jayteerq]

This is the way. If you are intimidated by the DIY route of mixing up your own solution, Brightwell also makes a product called neophos that will similarly allow precise dosing.

Yes! Neophos I’ve heard good things about it. Was going to buy it but I seen TM makes a phosphate supplement so I went with them instead. Maybe not the best product lol

 

[Tyrone]

Could my corals be consuming all the phos? I’m pretty heavily stocked. Mostly frags but here’s a list

3 hammer
1 duncan
3 torch
2 goniopora
1 toadstool
4 anenomes
4 zoas
1 mushroom
1 gsp
1 xenia
1 Kenya tree
6 montipora cap
2 digitata
3 acropora
1 stylophora
1 cyphastrea
2 scolymia
2 acans

I know having Xenia and GSP will definitely suck up all your phosphates really fast as start to spread and grow. I hope you have your GSP and Xenia isolated.

 

[Formulator]

Yes! Neophos I’ve heard good things about it. Was going to buy it but I seen TM makes a phosphate supplement so I went with them instead. Maybe not the best product lol

Neophos is actually soluble phosphate solution at a specific concentration that you can measure and add to the tank with a specific target in mind. It appears TM phos-feed is a coral food specifically designed not to raise the tank phosphate level. So, it is not helping you.

From the TM website on phos-feed:

“In a natural coral reef environment, insoluble particulates supply corals with phosphate essential for metabolism and growth. These particles can be very easily filtered out of the water and utilized by the corals. Phos-Feed is modeled after this natural phosphate supply process. Insoluble particulate phosphates are the most effective way to deliver this essential nutrient to the corals.

Now, for the first time in your reef aquarium, phosphate is dosed in a targeted manner, without continuously increased phosphate concentration of the water column. As a result, coral growth is stimulated and the corals show natural patterns of skeletal development and bright colors.”

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

So would bright well neo phos be the same as the tm product? Or better more detectable? I seen a lot of people using that on youtube

No, I think neophos is just inorganic phosphate, as noted above.

 

[Mark Goode]

You used dry rock, right?

 

[djf91]

My recommendation is to watch your corals and watch your tank. Just because you are reading 0 phosphates on your test kit does not mean you need to freak out and start dosing stuff. If you’re feeding the tank adequately and the corals appear colored up, and there are no signs of dinoflagellates then I would continue as is.

https://reefkeeping.com/joomla/index.php/totm-list
The majority of the tanks from the reefkeeping tank of the month list from back in the day have their phosphates listed as “UNDETECTABLE” and yet their systems are thriving. The ocean also measures close to 0.

 

[Formulator]

The majority of the tanks from the reefkeeping tank of the month list from back in the day have their phosphates listed as “UNDETECTABLE” and yet their systems are thriving. The ocean also measures close to 0

These are established mature tanks with healthy biomes already. In a new tank with zero phosphate, dinos are much more likely to take hold and I would never recommend a wait and see approach. Better to be proactive rather than reactive to dinos, IMO.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

My recommendation is to watch your corals and watch your tank. Just because you are reading 0 phosphates on your test kit does not mean you need to freak out and start dosing stuff. If you’re feeding the tank adequately and the corals appear colored up, and there are no signs of dinoflagellates then I would continue as is.

https://reefkeeping.com/joomla/index.php/totm-list
The majority of the tanks from the reefkeeping tank of the month list from back in the day have their phosphates listed as “UNDETECTABLE” and yet their systems are thriving. The ocean also measures close to 0.

I would not assume one needs to freak out to dose phosphate. It is cheap, easy, and carries no significant risk. One can always stop dosing, if warranted.

 

[djf91]

I would not assume one needs to freak out to dose phosphate. It is cheap, easy, and carries no significant risk. One can always stop dosing, if warranted.

I did not say that. I said 0’s on a test kit should not be reason to freak out.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I did not say that. I said 0’s on a test kit should not be reason to freak out.

Ok, if you think it is an important distinction, I’m happy to clarify what I said.

Just because you are reading 0 phosphates on your test kit does not mean you need to freak out and start dosing stuff.

My revised statement based on your original comment:

I believe that folks detecting zero phosphate should raise it somehow, and dosing is a cheap, easy, and largely risk free method that is not an overreaction.

 

[djf91]

I guess I’m just from an older time in the hobby where we maintained our reef aquariums differently and had great results. I don’t mean any disrespect.

https://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-09/rhf/index.php

Here you make the suggestion for aquarists to target a phosphate level of 0.02 ppm or less. I don’t think the ecology of our reef aquariums has changed compared to back in the day. Maybe it has though with the absence of indo-pacific live rock in the hobby, different lighting methods, etc..

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I guess I’m just from an older time in the hobby where we maintained our reef aquariums differently and had great results. I don’t mean any disrespect.

https://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-09/rhf/index.php

Here you make the suggestion for aquarists to target a phosphate level of 0.02 ppm or less. I don’t think the ecology of our reef aquariums has changed compared to back in the day. Maybe it has though with the absence of indo-pacific live rock in the hobby, different lighting methods, etc..

That recommendation, and my recommendation of undetectable nitrate were common recommendations at the time that were a mistake, especially when using new dry rock. I do not/can not update old articles, but my newer articles on the same topics reflect higher recommendations.

We took the ocean as evidence of what worked, but in reality, we were unable (or unwilling) to mimic many of the properties of the ocean (such as particulate foods) that accounted for a substantial portion of the nutrition cycles of corals.

It still can be fine to have undetectable nitrate and phosphate, but only if there are other adequate sources of N and P. Since most of these cannot be readily measured by aquarists, the nitrate and phosphate at higher levels is insurance that enough N and P is available, even if it is not the preferred source by corals.

 

[djf91]

That recommendation, and my recommendation of undetectable nitrate were common recommendations at the time that were a mistake, especially when using new dry rock. I do not/can not update old articles, but my newer articles on the same topics reflect higher recommendations.

I wouldnt call them a mistake. A lot of people read those articles, followed your advise, and created incredible reef aquariums because of it. Myself included.

 

[ChrisfromBrick]

Could my corals be consuming all the phos? I’m pretty heavily stocked. Mostly frags but here’s a list

3 hammer
1 duncan
3 torch
2 goniopora
1 toadstool
4 anenomes
4 zoas
1 mushroom
1 gsp
1 xenia
1 Kenya tree
6 montipora cap
2 digitata
3 acropora
1 stylophora
1 cyphastrea
2 scolymia
2 acans

Yes absolutely.

 

[jayteerq]

Neophos is actually soluble phosphate solution at a specific concentration that you can measure and add to the tank with a specific target in mind. It appears TM phos-feed is a coral food specifically designed not to raise the tank phosphate level. So, it is not helping you.

From the TM website on phos-feed:

“In a natural coral reef environment, insoluble particulates supply corals with phosphate essential for metabolism and growth. These particles can be very easily filtered out of the water and utilized by the corals. Phos-Feed is modeled after this natural phosphate supply process. Insoluble particulate phosphates are the most effective way to deliver this essential nutrient to the corals.

Now, for the first time in your reef aquarium, phosphate is dosed in a targeted manner, without continuously increased phosphate concentration of the water column. As a result, coral growth is stimulated and the corals show natural patterns of skeletal development and bright colors.”

Oh wow, thank you so much for this helpful response. I shouldn’t have been so ignorant and just use the products off of assumption that makes sense why I never noticed any results from it LOL.

 

[Formulator]

Oh wow, thank you so much for this helpful response. I shouldn’t have been so ignorant and just use the products off of assumption that makes sense why I never noticed any results from it LOL.

No worries! I did a lot of ignorant things early on, and still make mistakes from time to time. This hobby is all about constant learning and adjustment.

 

[Northern Flicker]

Its complex metabolism, but an interesting observation that with too much phosphate corals tend to turn brown. This is due to the zooxanthellae growth exploding to the point it drowns out all the color pigments in the coral so you just see the brown color of the zooxanthellae. So more food does fuel more growth at least for the coral symbiont, but in that case more growth is not better, its ugly. It also slows down coral skeleton growth, but I can’t remember the biological mechanism for that.

Is this true?

I am sure I’ve read in a book that brown is more of a response to low nutrients and low light?

I had an experience with a browning Birdsnest and a brown Bali slimer. Both really coloured up once I cranked my blues and now look great under and spectrum.


Here it was at the start of the process - you can see very brown but finally showing some progress.

Here it is a bit later (foregrund)

 

[Formulator]

Is this true?

I am sure I’ve read in a book that brown is more of a response to low nutrients and low light?

I had an experience with a browning Birdsnest and a brown Bali slimer. Both really coloured up once I cranked my blues and now look great under and spectrum.


Here it was at the start of the process - you can see very brown but finally showing some progress.

Here it is a bit later (foregrund)

There is more to it than what I said, but yes high phosphate definitely can lead to browning out in some corals, mostly acros. I’ve experienced it first hand. Lighting can have the same effect though.