High pH Low Alk

[DesertReefer51]

I have a RS 525Xl 3 years running with Apex controller and Trident. I stopped water changes several months ago. I've only been dosing BRS sodium bicarbonate for Alk. I have a large chaeto ball I'm constantly trimming and maspect bio balls. I utilize Microbacter7 about everyb6 months. Along with Galaxy pods.

My trident regularly shows the Alk at 6.2 before adding SB then rises over 2 days of manually dosing to 7.8. Cal 350, Mag 1380 are both steady with little fluctuation and the salinity is steady at 35-36. Only have a few corals; zoas and blasto, but large amount of coraline algae.

I've been trying to figure out the chemistry and trying to stabilize the tank before adding additional corals. All of the livestock: fish, inverts and anemones are doing well.

I'm trying to figure out what the tank needs. I'm setting up 2 dosers for future needs but I don't want to inadvertently throw the chemistry off since the parameters have been steady other than Alk. I have not tested for phosphates for over a year.

I would like to start adding Euphyllia's again but don't want to watch them die off after a few months.

I would appreciate any fact based advise. I've already been given plenty of guesses. I don't believe water changes are the answer.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I would appreciate any fact based advise. I've already been given plenty of guesses. I don't believe water changes are the answer.

Accurate chemistry is always fact based.

That said, the title says high pH, but you do not mention a pH in the text. Should we guess what it is? lol

 

[DesertReefer51]

On average my pH is 8.1 - 8.6. It has not dropped below 8.1 for the lasts several months. I do allow ample fresh air through the house and only run my skimmer for 7 hours in the overnight hours.

By "fact based" I was referring to substantive or empirical. I've already received plenty of opinions with no factual basis. Most of which required purchasing additional equipment or making drastic changes.

Thanks for the help

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Please stop with the fact comments. It’s a bit insulting. Everything I post here in my chemistry forum is fact based and not some random guess. If you had read threads here you’d know that. Your comments suggest that is not true.

Your pH values are fine and not too high. If the pH is actually 8.6 and you want it lower, more aeration will lower it unless the alk is unusually high (over 12 dKH).

 

[DesertReefer51]

There's no intention of insulting, I'm just clarifying historically the number of opinions from other members who provided no help with chemistry questions and trying to keep those unhelpful posters away. I asked this same question about a week prior in another forum and received zero helpful posts. I should have posted here to start. I specifically posted in this forum for your guidance as I have read numerous threads you have posted. I appreciate your expertise but am tired of wasting my time reading through endless posts from other members who do not contribute or are trying to boost their post numbers. Again, my intent was not to insult.

My concern is not the current pH but as I try to gradually increase my Alk to a stable 8-9 dKH I may push the pH higher into the 9.0 range. I am currently setting up a dose to add Alk based on the Trident readings along with Cal & Mag as needed. I trying to avoid throwing off the current readings into another undesired direction, creating a new problem.

I planned to dose BRS sodium bicarbonate as I'm not familiar with Kalk. I need to research more into Kalk and the application and unintentional problems that can be caused. If Kalk is the more beneficial choice I can go that direction.

Thanks again

 

[Garf]

There's no intention of insulting, I'm just clarifying historically the number of opinions from other members who provided no help with chemistry questions and trying to keep those unhelpful posters away. I asked this same question about a week prior in another forum and received zero helpful posts. I should have posted here to start. I specifically posted in this forum for your guidance as I have read numerous threads you have posted. I appreciate your expertise but am tired of wasting my time reading through endless posts from other members who do not contribute or are trying to boost their post numbers. Again, my intent was not to insult.

My concern is not the current pH but as I try to gradually increase my Alk to a stable 8-9 dKH I may push the pH higher into the 9.0 range. I am currently setting up a dose to add Alk based on the Trident readings along with Cal & Mag as needed. I trying to avoid throwing off the current readings into another undesired direction, creating a new problem.

I planned to dose BRS sodium bicarbonate as I'm not familiar with Kalk. I need to research more into Kalk and the application and unintentional problems that can be caused. If Kalk is the more beneficial choice I can go that direction.

Thanks again

Not sure if your Alk is accurate, but if it is, then slowly raising it with sodium bicarbonate should stop your pH wobbling around as much.

 

[DesertReefer51]

Garf,

When adding SB the pH does increase but consistently returns to 8.1 - 8.2. after approximately 24 hours. This is definitely not a problem and I'm happy to see these numbers. Testing is done via the Trident but also verified with Hanna checker and Red Sea test kits. All are within 0.2-0.3 of each other so I believe the measurements are accurate within the hobby parameters.

I have been manually adding bicarbonate but trying to be consistent in dosage and frequency. As soon as I can get the auto dose up and running my hope is this will eliminate additional inconsistencies.

I am not trying to chase specific numbers but consistency as I am about to add several softy corals and have already gone through a learning experience, losing multiple corals.

I appreciate the advise.

 

[Garf]

Garf,

When adding SB the pH does increase but consistently returns to 8.1 - 8.2. after approximately 24 hours. This is definitely not a problem and I'm happy to see these numbers. Testing is done via the Trident but also verified with Hanna checker and Red Sea test kits. All are within 0.2-0.3 of each other so I believe the measurements are accurate within the hobby parameters.

I have been manually adding bicarbonate but trying to be consistent in dosage and frequency. As soon as I can get the auto dose up and running my hope is this will eliminate additional inconsistencies.

I am not trying to chase specific numbers but consistency as I am about to add several softy corals and have already gone through a learning experience, losing multiple corals.

I appreciate the advise.

Ok, well some folks run alk at 7 ish but lots run it a little higher to give a little room for errors.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Raising alkalinity from 7.8 to 9 dKH will not push pH from 8.6 to 9. It will only make a small pH effect and may not even raise it since pH will be more strongly buffered against both pH rises and drops.

I’d go ahead and raise it, and if pH runs higher than you want, aeration will lower it.

 

[killer2001]

More aeration + switching to kalk may be the move for you. Calcium at 350ppm is a bit on the lower side.

 

[DesertReefer51]

Ok, well some folks run alk at 7 ish but lots run it a little higher to give a little room for errors.

That's what I've been advised by successful reefers locally. Thanks for the confirmation.

Raising alkalinity from 7.8 to 9 dKH will not push pH from 8.6 to 9. It will only make a small pH effect and may not even raise it since pH will be more strongly buffered against both pH rises and drops.

I’d go ahead and raise it, and if pH runs higher than you want, aeration will lower it.

Question: Would the buffering effect be the same if using Sodium Bicarbonate or Kalk? I ask because I may be gifted a slightly used Kalk container/stirrer from a local reefer.

2nd Question: I have my Skimmer plumbed to outside air and often try to keep the windows open for fresh air exchange. In the past, these measures helped to increase pH sometimes 0.5 -0.75. This type of aeration should still have the effect you suggest?

I appreciate the advice.

More aeration + switching to kalk may be the move for you. Calcium at 350ppm is a bit on the lower side.

Yes, I believe the low Cal is due to the large amount of coralline algae. I constantly scrap it from the glass. I would like to stabilize the elements before adding corals again and I think the excess coralline algae, albeit a good thing, is sucking up Calcium. I need to find the consistent need for the tank.

Thanks again

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Question: Would the buffering effect be the same if using Sodium Bicarbonate or Kalk? I ask because I may be gifted a slightly used Kalk container/stirrer from a local reefer.

2nd Question: I have my Skimmer plumbed to outside air and often try to keep the windows open for fresh air exchange. In the past, these measures helped to increase pH sometimes 0.5 -0.75. This type of aeration should still have the effect you suggest?

First question back to you is what do you mean by buffering. It means one thing to me as a chemist, but may mean something different to you. Both are suitable, but very different ways to add alkalinity,.

Aeration drives pH toward equilibrium with the amount of CO2 in that aerating air. Whether that is up or down depends on where it starts.

 

[DesertReefer51]

First question back to you is what do you mean by buffering. It means one thing to me as a chemist, but may mean something different to you. Both are suitable, but very different ways to add alkalinity,.

Aeration drives pH toward equilibrium with the amount of CO2 in that aerating air. Whether that is up or down depends on where it starts.

Buffering: I was curious as to the differences between SC & Kalk's effects. For long term use would the Kalk be the better solution? I'd like to try and setup a process for the long haul for consistency. My coral load currently is only 4 Zoa's and a Blasto but would like to start adding. I would like to understand my tanks chemistry and how to identify changes so I can react appropriately.

Aeration: I try to allow as much fresh air transfer within the house. I also have a small jungle in the house of vary plants, approximately 45 just downstairs in close proximity of the tank. My skimmer has a plumbed line from outside bit also has a solenoid valve to switch to a CO2 scrubber assist with pH swings.

Thanks again for the advice. I'm currently reading your DIY 2 part Ca & Alk supplement system article.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Buffering: I was curious as to the differences between SC & Kalk's effects. For long term use would the Kalk be the better solution? I'd like to try and setup a process for the long haul for consistency. My coral load currently is only 4 Zoa's and a Blasto but would like to start adding. I would like to understand my tanks chemistry and how to identify changes so I can react appropriately.

Aeration: I try to allow as much fresh air transfer within the house. I also have a small jungle in the house of vary plants, approximately 45 just downstairs in close proximity of the tank. My skimmer has a plumbed line from outside bit also has a solenoid valve to switch to a CO2 scrubber assist with pH swings.

Thanks again for the advice. I'm currently reading your DIY 2 part Ca & Alk supplement system article.

The differences are:

Sodium carbonate (or sodium bicarbonate or sodium hydroxide) along with calcium chloride for calcium will slowly accumulate sodium chloride. You will need to correct back the rising salinity over time, and each time you do, you push down things like magnesium and potassium and sulfate (if they are not added). Hence the desirability of means to correct that drift in other ions, such as Balling Part C or my DIY part 3.

Kalkwasser (calcium hydroxide) does not have any of that ion imbalance issue from accumulating sodium chloride, but it will slowly deplete magnesium (since it is consumed as calcium carbonate is formed).

Hydroxide has a higher pH boost (whether from sodium hydroxide or calcium hydroxide) than does carbonate, but otherwise the nature and concentration of bicarbonate, carbonate, hydroxide, etc. is identical in the tank water and is ONLY a function of the current pH and the alkalinity (no matter how you got there).

 

[DesertReefer51]

The differences are:

Sodium carbonate (or sodium bicarbonate or sodium hydroxide) along with calcium chloride for calcium will slowly accumulate sodium chloride. You will need to correct back the rising salinity over time, and each time you do, you push down things like magnesium and potassium and sulfate (if they are not added). Hence the desirability of means to correct that drift in other ions, such as Balling Part C or my DIY part 3.

Kalkwasser (calcium hydroxide) does not have any of that ion imbalance issue from accumulating sodium chloride, but it will slowly deplete magnesium (since it is consumed as calcium carbonate is formed).

Hydroxide has a higher pH boost (whether from sodium hydroxide or calcium hydroxide) than does carbonate, but otherwise the nature and concentration of bicarbonate, carbonate, hydroxide, etc. is identical in the tank water and is ONLY a function of the current pH and the alkalinity (no matter how you got there).

That's interesting about the SB increasing salinty and driving down Mag. I have been manually dosing BRS SB for 3 months and my Salinity and Mag have been steady.

If I were to utilize Kalk I would then need to monitor my Mag and adjust accordingly? This would effect my pH less but provide the necessary Calcium Carbonate for the corals and cause fewer swings.

I would like to at some point go to a Calcium reactor for a more natural and steady control but my current coral load does not justify the move.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

That's interesting about the SB increasing salinty and driving down Mag. I have been manually dosing BRS SB for 3 months and my Salinity and Mag have been steady.

If I were to utilize Kalk I would then need to monitor my Mag and adjust accordingly? This would effect my pH less but provide the necessary Calcium Carbonate for the corals and cause fewer swings.

I would like to at some point go to a Calcium reactor for a more natural and steady control but my current coral load does not justify the move.

Adding 1.1 dKH per day will boost salinity by about 32% over the course of a year, assuming nothing else impacts the salinity up or down. That means 35 ppt to 46 ppt or sg = 1.026 to 1.034. Thus, the effect is not small.

You do not need to monitor/test magnesium with kalkwasser, but you would need to dose it if you use a lot, unless the water change water is especially high in magnesium. Add 5-10 ppm of magnesium for each 100 ppm of calcium dosed that way. That's step 3 in RMM.

Just say NO to magnesium testing: RMM is born

OK, this thread has been many years in the making, and I'm posting it here since folks in the chem forum are probably already tired of all the threads relating to problematic magnesium testing. I'm going to propose a method, let's call it the Randy Magnesium Method, or RMM for short. All good...

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