Hi, any final thoughts on my fight against cyano before I drop the chemiclean bomb?

[MikeCRK]

Hey,

So I have a fresh tank, started around two months ago. Plagues are expected, I managed to tackle dinos and briyo, however cyano is kicking me hard last two weeks and it is not getting better.
I am vacuuming the carpets of it every day, I am doing 10-20% water changes during it.
At start I used soda to raise kH, I used kalk to pump the pH up too (first kalk then soda as soda brings pH down a bit).
Cyanos are back next day. I was trying to at start to wait until the carpet gets thicker and then vacuum it out in bigger batches - did not work.
I reviewed the flow in the tank, increased it significantly - did not work, in fact more cyano is where the current is the strongest!
I am changing filters, have skimmer on... I do not overfeed, there is no gunk gathering in dead spots, I have few hermits, snails and serpent star moving the sand (well recently it is so bad I noticed hermits are rather sticking to the rock)

I was planning to use chemiclean on the 15th, so now I wanted to ask if there is anything else I can do. The reason is, that cyano are making life of my zoas and brain coral a mysery. It is growing over them, some are closed last two-three days...

Here are the photos (I vacuumed day before!):

What am I doing wrong?

water:
kH: 7.5 (I am using Marine Pro salt which is 7.0)
pH: 8.2
NH3/4: 0
NO2: 0
NO3: 15
Ca: 475 (pumped with kalk)
PO4: 0.1 (was zero, I added a bit as some articles suggest 0 P4 could be causing it)


I do not have any more tests.

Help, please.

 

[shadow_k]

What size tank is this ?

 

[Northern Flicker]

@vetteguy53081 has a better method, maybe they will share it. Worked for me.

You can see it near the bottom of this post (#21):

Do Dinos create mats like in this picture?

I was reviewing the Dino Treatment article and the Are You Tired? thread by @mcarroll , and I noticed that many of the pics people were sharing did not have quite the mat structure I am seeing on my rocks. Right now I am waiting to see if anyone in my local group has a microscope and can help...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[MikeCRK]

What size tank is this ?

48G

 

[shadow_k]

48G

Ahh if it was smaller I would suggest a rip clean … because I had the same issue with my 20 gallon

 

[kyleinpdx]

Microbacter CLEAN + reefcleaners.org

 

[MikeCRK]

@vetteguy53081 has a better method, maybe they will share it. Worked for me.

You can see it near the bottom of this post (#21):

Do Dinos create mats like in this picture?

I was reviewing the Dino Treatment article and the Are You Tired? thread by @mcarroll , and I noticed that many of the pics people were sharing did not have quite the mat structure I am seeing on my rocks. Right now I am waiting to see if anyone in my local group has a microscope and can help...

www.reef2reef.com

I know that option. This is why I applied baking soda too, it is sodium bicarbonate did not work well.
This is cyano not dinos too, no bubbles and I know this brat from freshwater tanks. Just here is like apocalyptic for me

 

[MikeCRK]

Microbacter CLEAN + reefcleaners.org

cleaning crew is in (hermits, various snails, shrimp, serpent star, those little stars I forgot the name) and me syphoning it daily...
microbacter might be too late as it is already raging.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Hey,

So I have a fresh tank, started around two months ago. Plagues are expected, I managed to tackle dinos and briyo, however cyano is kicking me hard last two weeks and it is not getting better.
I am vacuuming the carpets of it every day, I am doing 10-20% water changes during it.
At start I used soda to raise kH, I used kalk to pump the pH up too (first kalk then soda as soda brings pH down a bit).
Cyanos are back next day. I was trying to at start to wait until the carpet gets thicker and then vacuum it out in bigger batches - did not work.
I reviewed the flow in the tank, increased it significantly - did not work, in fact more cyano is where the current is the strongest!
I am changing filters, have skimmer on... I do not overfeed, there is no gunk gathering in dead spots, I have few hermits, snails and serpent star moving the sand (well recently it is so bad I noticed hermits are rather sticking to the rock)

I was planning to use chemiclean on the 15th, so now I wanted to ask if there is anything else I can do. The reason is, that cyano are making life of my zoas and brain coral a mysery. It is growing over them, some are closed last two-three days...

Here are the photos (I vacuumed day before!):

What am I doing wrong?

water:
kH: 7.5 (I am using Marine Pro salt which is 7.0)
pH: 8.2
NH3/4: 0
NO2: 0
NO3: 15
Ca: 475 (pumped with kalk)
PO4: 0.1 (was zero, I added a bit as some articles suggest 0 P4 could be causing it)


I do not have any more tests.

Help, please.

This is cyano and not dino. Likely your Phosphate and even nitrate levels are elevated. At times they dont have to be. In your pics, your tank has bright white light which are making the cyano happy.
Cyano blooms typically start when water nutrient concentrations of phosphate, nitrate and other organic compounds are too high.
Some of the most common causes include:
- Protein skimmer which fills water with tiny air bubbles. As bubbles form from the reaction chamber, dissolved organic compound molecules stick to them. Foam forms at the surface of the water and is then transferred to a collection cup, where it rests as skimmate. When the protein skimmer does not output the best efficiency or you do not have the suitable protein skimmer to cover the tank, the air bubbles created by the skimmer might be insufficient. And this insufficiency of air bubbles can trigger the cyano to thrive.
- Overstocking / overfeeding, your aquarium with nutrients is often the culprit of a cyano bloom
- Adding live rock that isn’t completely cured which acts like a breeding ground for red slime algae
- If you don’t change your water with enough frequency, you’ll soon have a brightly colored red slime algae bloom. Regular water changes dilute nutrients that feed cyanobacteria and keeps your tank clear
- Using a water source with nitrates or phosphates is like rolling out the welcome mat for cyano. Tap water is an example
- Inadequate water flow, or movement, is a leading cause of cyano blooms. Slow moving water combined with excess dissolved nutrients is a recipe for pervasive red slime algae development

I recommend to reduce white light intensity or even turn them off for 3-5 days. Add liquid bacteria daily for a week during the day at 1.5ml per 10 gallons. Add Hydrogen peroxide at night at 1ml per 10 gallons which serves as an oxidizer. Add a pouch of chemipure Elite which will balance phos and nitrate and keep them in check.

After the 5 days, add a few snails such as cerith, margarita, astrea and nassarius plus 6-8 blue leg hermits to take control.

 

[brandon429]

you should rip clean it

if you don't, you turn that filthy mass into dinos and or gha by end of year, chemi clean is a terrible, deeply terrible option

after the rip clean, your lighting must be reduced drastically, sustained, there isn't a high command for that much white bright light. we'd adjust a few things after the rip clean and your tank would be fixed.


ok go ahead and use the chemi clean now

will revisit in January, when things are really fun and pressing

you have an easy way off this train in 3 hours of work

but the masses won't choose that

they'll choose what you see in the nuisance algae forum after 8 straight months of avoiding the correct manual clean, pick any challenge thread look at their reefing approach.


select 'find all threads' they posted and chart the history of choices that lead up to the invasion current, chemi clean factored in several of them as early cyano battle choices made that brought them to dinos ruin.

that tank is too new to use chems

use a rip clean, avoid it at your tank's peril. we have fifty pages of them charted in one thread. if chemi clean did fifty pages, 20 of them would have totally dead reefs from misapplication.

 

[kyleinpdx]

cleaning crew is in (hermits, various snails, shrimp, serpent star, those little stars I forgot the name) and me syphoning it daily...
microbacter might be too late as it is already raging.

Well... it doesn't sound like the cuc is sufficient given the circumstances, so more is likely needed.

As for the bottled bacteria, its never "too late" to change/modify the bacterial composition of your tank, sure, as with anything in life, it becomes harder/more intensive the worse you let something get, but there are very few things in the world where we can say "well its too bad to start making things better, might as well do nothing."

 

[brandon429]

just know that if you choose to add something, that's the wrong way because you can't find a fifty page thread of it working for 300 reefs

the one action you can find more than one thread working 500 reefs is for nano reef rip cleans. even knowing that, the masses will literally proceed onward it's an amazing trend to observe...if you want that reef fixed by tomorrow, we sure can

it would be fun to run yet another one, rip clean #4566 on the site heh

we could customize your approach here, your reef fixed by tomorrow. no better way exists, because your tank is new


adding animals is asking for disease imports to kill your fish

adding something: takes a risk

removes something, a rip clean, fixes the tank by tomorrow/stark choice here in my opinion.

 

[MikeCRK]

hey! thanks for the post

This is cyano and not dino. Likely your Phosphate and even nitrate levels are elevated. At times they dont have to be. In your pics, your tank has bright white light which are making the cyano happy.
Cyano blooms typically start when water nutrient concentrations of phosphate, nitrate and other organic compounds are too high.

yes, cyano for sure. Water readings are in the first post .1 PO4 (and going down) it started before I increased it. NO2: 0, NO3: 15 (not elevated, my cube is over 30 and no issues)

The light is AI blade grow, set with presets from Tidal gardens with acclimatization mode on, I took the photos when the white light is actually on to not play with filters

Some of the most common causes include:
- Protein skimmer which fills water with tiny air bubbles. As bubbles form from the reaction chamber, dissolved organic compound molecules stick to them. Foam forms at the surface of the water and is then transferred to a collection cup, where it rests as skimmate. When the protein skimmer does not output the best efficiency or you do not have the suitable protein skimmer to cover the tank, the air bubbles created by the skimmer might be insufficient. And this insufficiency of air bubbles can trigger the cyano to thrive.

Nope

- Overstocking / overfeeding, your aquarium with nutrients is often the culprit of a cyano bloom

Nope

- Adding live rock that isn’t completely cured which acts like a breeding ground for red slime algae

Nope - dry rock start, the only bits of live rock are from my cube or one friend of my with old tank

- If you don’t change your water with enough frequency, you’ll soon have a brightly colored red slime algae bloom. Regular water changes dilute nutrients that feed cyanobacteria and keeps your tank clear

as in my first post, changes are regular and recently like crazy

- Using a water source with nitrates or phosphates is like rolling out the welcome mat for cyano. Tap water is an example

I use RO/DI

- Inadequate water flow, or movement, is a leading cause of cyano blooms. Slow moving water combined with excess dissolved nutrients is a recipe for pervasive red slime algae development)

also in my first post, I significantly increased the flow (have a look at the patterns) it actually grows now more where the flow is stronger!

I recommend to reduce white light intensity or even turn them off for 3-5 days. Add liquid bacteria daily for a week during the day at 1.5ml per 10 gallons. Add Hydrogen peroxide at night at 1ml per 10 gallons. Add a pouch of chemipure Elite which will balance phos and nitrate and keep them in check.

- I can give it a go and switch white fully for few days... but still this is tiny fraction of the actual light the tank gets (white ones are max 20%)
- bacs will take a lot of time zoas might not make it (and I need to order)
- H2O2, well I used it a lot in freshwater tanks but I am afraid of using it with corals in... 4ml we can give it a try
- I have chemipure blue and active coal in my baskets (forgot to mention earlier)

After the 5 days, add a few snails such as cerith, margarita, astrea and nassarius plus 6-8 blue leg hermits to take control.

Wrote it already I think few times, but did not give the numbers: 5 blue legged, 2 red legged, 1 ugly legged, 7 turbos, 3 turbans, over 15 nassarius, one I fogot the name but is sifting the bottom, cleaner shrimp, serpent star

 

[brandon429]

your cuc is actually a problem here, and shouldn't be in the tank. sounds strange I know, but try and find any duplicate for these results:

Official Sand Rinse and Tank Transfer thread

If you are reading this thread to cure a tank invasion from a link I sent you, we do not need to identify your type of invasion here we do not need you to test anything at anytime regarding nitrate, phosphate etc Above all, we do not need to see a microscope slide picture of your invasion at...

www.reef2reef.com

how much CUC did we mention or use there

they are inputting massive # of waste pellets into the sandbed. they are invasion fuel, not removers, it's apparent.

notice how in every case for nine years, we removed something.


we didn't add

we didn't lose any tank and all the after pics are available to you within 24 hours of deep personal resolve, if you want it.

you are in pre-dinos stages, friendly heads up, don't follow the broad large common path, you can see where that leads in the 700 page dinos thread in the nuisance algae group: it leads to total inability to fix your reef unless you get resolved at that point but will need more than one rip. the popular path is not the right one here

how many reef param measurements did we use there (=people that use non digital test kits, approximate a reading, relay it as fact, the crowd accepts every stated reading as correct and makes a guess chemical prescription)

we used none. all that is hesitation, we acted. its the small, tiny, narrow path with a clear roadmap laid out. all the mass needs to be exported by hand, 100%, then you begin a new approach.


you don't begin the new approach hoping to kill all that and let it rot in the tank, that's what the invaded masses do

 

[MikeCRK]

just know that if you choose to add something, that's the wrong way because you can't find a fifty page thread of it working for 300 reefs

the one action you can find more than one thread working 500 reefs is for nano reef rip cleans. even knowing that, the masses will literally proceed onward it's an amazing trend to observe...if you want that reef fixed by tomorrow, we sure can

it would be fun to run yet another one, rip clean #4566 on the site heh

we could customize your approach here, your reef fixed by tomorrow. no better way exists, because your tank is new


adding animals is asking for disease imports to kill your fish

adding something: takes a risk

removes something, a rip clean, fixes the tank by tomorrow/stark choice here in my opinion.

hey @brandon429 ! long time no see!

yeah, that is why I set this thread, as there are so many 'universal' approaches and plenty of copy and paste advices. Gave myself a bit time before nuking the cyano out of the orbit with chemiclean (this is why I would wait with adding more bacs to after the treatment, and still not a big fan of adding bacs).

I tried few magic solutions and this only gave me more headaches as I lost the track what would work and what not :/

 

[vetteguy53081]

hey! thanks for the post



yes, cyano for sure. Water readings are in the first post .1 PO4 (and going down) it started before I increased it. NO2: 0, NO3: 15 (not elevated, my cube is over 30 and no issues)

The light is AI blade grow, set with presets from Tidal gardens with acclimatization mode on, I took the photos when the white light is actually on to not play with filters


Nope


Nope


Nope - dry rock start, the only bits of live rock are from my cube or one friend of my with old tank


as in my first post, changes are regular and recently like crazy


I use RO/DI


also in my first post, I significantly increased the flow (have a look at the patterns) it actually grows now more where the flow is stronger!



- I can give it a go and switch white fully for few days... but still this is tiny fraction of the actual light the tank gets (white ones are max 20%)
- bacs will take a lot of time zoas might not make it (and I need to order)
- H2O2, well I used it a lot in freshwater tanks but I am afraid of using it with corals in... 4ml we can give it a try
- I have chemipure blue and active coal in my baskets (forgot to mention earlier)



Wrote it already I think few times, but did not give the numbers: 5 blue legged, 2 red legged, 1 ugly legged, 7 turbos, 3 turbans, over 15 nassarius, one I fogot the name but is sifting the bottom, cleaner shrimp, serpent star

I saw your numbers but the values should not have impact.
.1 is acceptable. Guess I meant, verify they arent higher than youre seeing. A water sample to an LFS that preferably does not use Api kits can confirm those numbers

 

[MikeCRK]

your cuc is actually a problem here, and shouldn't be in the tank. sounds strange I know, but try and find any duplicate for these results:

Official Sand Rinse and Tank Transfer thread

If you are reading this thread to cure a tank invasion from a link I sent you, we do not need to identify your type of invasion here we do not need you to test anything at anytime regarding nitrate, phosphate etc Above all, we do not need to see a microscope slide picture of your invasion at...

www.reef2reef.com

how much CUC did we mention or use there

they are inputting massive # of waste pellets into the sandbed. they are invasion fuel, not removers, it's apparent.

notice how in every case for nine years, we removed something.


we didn't add

we didn't lose any tank and all the after pics are available to you within 24 hours of deep personal resolve, if you want it.

you are in pre-dinos stages, friendly heads up, don't follow the broad large common path, you can see where that leads in the 700 page dinos thread in the nuisance algae group: it leads to total inability to fix your reef unless you get resolved at that point but will need more than one rip. the popular path is not the right one here

Oh sugar, this sounds promising, but the amount of work it will require!

Defo putting it on my list! and also did not dissapoint myself with a single advice from you, so rreally happy to see you in here

I had dinos already, bubbly all over the place, when I started vacuuming, dinos almost stopped showing up, cyano nope.

 

[MikeCRK]

I saw your numbers but the values should not have impact.
.1 is acceptable. Guess I meant, verify they arent higher than youre seeing. A water sample to an LFS that preferably does not use Api kits can confirm those numbers

cheers!

I tested just now with Salifert test, and yesterday too (same result). The levels are really low to suspect them causing it.

OK, the plan is starting to form. Please post any other suggestions, and I will update the next step later today. Thank you very much to all helping out!

 

[exnisstech]

I had a cyano out break after using flux. It was on an older established tank. I ended up doing a rip clean on that one, it was really bad.
I have a tank 75g total I just started 2/20/23 which started to develop cyano. It was on the rocks and bare bottom. I started dosing microbactor 7 in DIY coral snow that SunnyX talks about below. I was blowing the rocks off daily before adding the MB7 coral snow mix and doing small 2g water changes every day or two. I just kept at it for a month or so, maybe longer. I don't have access to my log at the moment. I still dose 2ml of MB7 daily and use the coral snow after I blow the rocks off but now every few days vs daily. A couple of weeks ago I started dosing 0.5 ml of bacto balance. I'm dosing that because I'm experimenting with a different method of reefing on the new tank. I can't say the BB has any affect on the cyano but felt I should mention it. I no longer have any visible cyano.
It may be worth looking into before chemiclean I've used chemiclean in the past with mixed results. It never harmed anything I can tell but the last time it didn't really help much with cyano.

EDIT: just for reference last test had nitrate at 8.8 and phos at 0.12

Sunnyx article

Extreme Water Clarity and Cyano Eradication, Made Easy!

wow. you'll never need to buy it again. My wife uses it in toothpaste so she gets irritated at me when I use it for the aquarium. :beaming-face-with-smiling-eyes: I told her to buy a big bag of Amazon.

www.reef2reef.com

 

[jda]

More flow will keep it down. It might not be worth it. There is a point to where cyano just cannot grow in the flow.

I have never seen or heard of any real problems from experienced hobbyists if you use the stuff right. It is just temporary. Something else will take over the vacated space if you kill it - this is true whether you kill it, suck it out, clean the tank, etc. The issue is that there is vacant land for things to establish and cyano is quick, dinos are quick and algae is quick, but not as quick as those.

Cyano is not all that bad since it is easier to kill than other things.

In the end, something is going to be a plague until you get other things to grow on those rocks and sand. A pack of life rock from Florida is probably the best spent money - like even 10-15 pounds. Let that stuff spread while sucking out the cyano and stuff.

If you must do this, get the BlueVet Cyano Rx. They at least tell you what is in it and the antibiotic in the stuff is not as harsh on nitrifying bacteria. Boyd have been AHs for decades and have lied about what is in their stuff, so I don't support that - it is likely Erythomycin which is effective at killing cyano, but also other things.