Help with Walt Smith ReefRock 2.1 Leeching PO4

[Reefahholic]

I would like to seek help in finding the best method to remove excessive PO4 or to expedite the leeching process.

I'm scared my acros will die or fear my anemones will suffer and possibly die.

Any help would be appreciated.

I'm not sure how long this process will take since it's man-made rock. It can't be organic material. It has to be the paint or coating that used to color the rock purple. Frustrated....

See video below:

 

[Maacc]

If you don't already have it in your display, lanthanum chloride will precipitate and leech phosphate out of rock. Would not recommend it in a display especially not with acros present.
It can also damage the gills of fish particularly tangs as the phosphate precipitates into tiny sharp crystals. Nothing bad in a vat, but not good in a display or sump.

 

[Reefahholic]

Yeah, I've used sea clear before on some Marco dry rock.

How long do you suspect this would take if I removed my fish and coral from the display? Would it be ok to return the fish and coral in a few days after this treatment?

 

[Maacc]

I think it depends on how much is in it, I think your best bet is to test before you return the livestock. It might be good to go in a few days but it might take a couple of weeks. I would hate for you to go to all the effort and stress of capturing /moving everything without solving the problem.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

IMO, such tests are not a good way to assess rocks, foods, etc. You are putting it in such a tiny amount of water that it gives misleading readings relative to what one gets in a large volume.

I'd soak the entire batch in some seawater and see what you really get, and you can treat that seawater to remove phosphate if you need to.

 

[Maacc]

IMO, such tests are not a good way to assess rocks, foods, etc. You are putting it in such a tiny amount of water that it gives misleading readings relative to what one gets in a large volume.

I'd soak the entire batch in some seawater and see what you really get, and you can treat that seawater to remove phosphate if you need to.

Do you think dosing the lanthanum, then changing the water soaking and retesting would be prudent before adding back to the display?

 

[Reefahholic]

IMO, such tests are not a good way to assess rocks, foods, etc. You are putting it in such a tiny amount of water that it gives misleading readings relative to what one gets in a large volume.

I'd soak the entire batch in some seawater and see what you really get, and you can treat that seawater to remove phosphate if you need to.

True, but it's kinda hard to remove all your rock from the display. Lol

Probably not the best test, but when that small piece turns the water blue within 1 minute...I feel it's very likely that it's the source of the phosphate.

I'm near positive if I tested a small pebble form outside that it wouldn't yield the same results or any result remotely close. I'm doubtful the water would turn blue and that the phosphate reading would be high at all. So to me this is a good indication that my dry rock is most likely causing the issues.

 

[Reefahholic]

Do you think dosing the lanthanum, then changing the water soaking and retesting would be prudent before adding back to the display?

IMO you can do the same test but on a much smaller scale. You just need to do some basic math.

I know the volume of my system. I also know how many pounds of rock I have in the tank because I weighed it myself when I bought it. Few other details needed to be calculated, but I think you can get it very close for a accurate assessment. Wouldn't you guys agree?

 

[DRoth335]

Do you think dosing the lanthanum, then changing the water soaking and retesting would be prudent before adding back to the display?

That's what I do. Give it a good swishing in saltwater as well to remove the precipitate too. I usually wait a few days to retest to give time to be sure it isn't still leaching.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I would add another huge caution. A phosphate test acidifies the water, which would dissolvesome or all solid calcium carbonate, even coralline skeletons.

It is not appropriate to put solid CaCO3 scrapings into a test to check to see what could actually be released. You will detect phosphate in solid itself which cannot dissolve in tank water.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

True, but it's kinda hard to remove all your rock from the display. Lol

Probably not the best test, but when that small piece turns the water blue within 1 minute...I feel it's very likely that it's the source of the phosphate.

I'm near positive if I tested a small pebble form outside that it wouldn't yield the same results or any result remotely close. I'm doubtful the water would turn blue and that the phosphate reading would be high at all. So to me this is a good indication that my dry rock is most likely causing the issues.

You, like many, may misunderstand phosphate balance.

Foods add MASSIVE amounts every day. Like 0.05 to 0.3 ppm EVERY DAY. Small amounts from rock, RO/DI, etc., are often meaningless, even though they are colorful. lol

That is not to say that all rock is not a problem. Some are. But they need to be tested appropriately, by soaking in an appropriate volume of normal seawater.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

This has more:

Aquarium Chemistry: Phosphate And Math: Yes You Need To Understand Both
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2012/3/chemistry

Comparison of Food Sources of Phosphate to Other Sources
What about other sources of phosphate, like the "crappy" RO/DI water containing 0.05 ppm phosphate? A similar analysis will show it equally unimportant relative to foods.

Let's assume that the aquarist in question adds 1% of the total tank volume each day with RO/DI to replace evaporation. Simple math shows that the 0.05 ppm in the RO/DI becomes 0.0005 ppm added each day to the phosphate concentration in the aquarium. That dilution step is critical, taking a scary number like 0.05 ppm down to an almost meaningless 0.0005 ppm daily addition. Since that 0.0005 ppm is 40-600 times lower than the amount added each day in foods (Table 4), it does not seem worthy of the angst many aquarists put on such measurements. That said, tap water could have as much as 5 ppm phosphate, and that value could then become a dominating source of phosphate and would be quite problematic. Purifying tap water is important for this and many other reasons.

The same sort of calculation applies to analyzing other phosphate issues, such as the GAC in scenario three. The issue of finding "high" phosphate in GAC soaked in fresh water was frequently quoted as a reason to use one or the other brand of GAC, and probably still is. But simple analysis as shown above for the food rinsing puts the lie to this being a big problem.

One needs to consider how much GAC one will really use in the aquarium and how often it is added in order to interpret how important the added phosphate is. A typical recommendation might be 1 cup of GAC per 100 gallons of aquarium water, and to change it in 4-6 weeks. Let's assume we detect 0.5 ppm phosphate when a teaspoon is placed in a cup of water, and we get scared by the dark blue color during the test. Is this reasonable? That 0.5 ppm from a teaspoon in a cup of water translates to 0.015 ppm phosphate when a cup is used in 100 gallons.

That 0.015 ppm may be significant, being a typical target concentration level for reef aquaria and amounting to about half to a twentieth of the amount added daily in foods, but remember, it is used for 4-6 weeks. During those 4-6 weeks before the next replacement, foods add 50-700 times as much phosphate. So while it is not unreasonable to look for another brand of GAC, to blame phosphate or algae issues in the aquarium on its use would stretch credibility because it is a very tiny portion of the total phosphate being added.

 

[Reefahholic]

You, like many, may misunderstand phosphate balance.

Foods add MASSIVE amounts every day. Like 0.05 to 0.3 ppm EVERY DAY. Small amounts from rock, RO/DI, etc., are often meaningless, even though they are colorful. lol

That is not to say that all rock is not a problem. Some are. But they need to be tested appropriately, by soaking in an appropriate volume of normal seawater.

Food for me is the killer. I try to feed minimal, but the fish always want to eat. Lol

Over the years I've learned to drain my mysis and stay clear of pellets and flake during high PO4 levels.

I'll try to do the test the appropriate way. What do you suggest for a 105/G system. 40 breeder sump running with 8" of water (about 20 gallons) and remote 40 breeder Siporax tank with 50 liters of Siporax. I'd say the system is approximately 140 gallons total volume.

 

[Reefahholic]

Thanks for you knowledge Randy!

This has more:

Aquarium Chemistry: Phosphate And Math: Yes You Need To Understand Both
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2012/3/chemistry

Comparison of Food Sources of Phosphate to Other Sources
What about other sources of phosphate, like the "crappy" RO/DI water containing 0.05 ppm phosphate? A similar analysis will show it equally unimportant relative to foods.

Let's assume that the aquarist in question adds 1% of the total tank volume each day with RO/DI to replace evaporation. Simple math shows that the 0.05 ppm in the RO/DI becomes 0.0005 ppm added each day to the phosphate concentration in the aquarium. That dilution step is critical, taking a scary number like 0.05 ppm down to an almost meaningless 0.0005 ppm daily addition. Since that 0.0005 ppm is 40-600 times lower than the amount added each day in foods (Table 4), it does not seem worthy of the angst many aquarists put on such measurements. That said, tap water could have as much as 5 ppm phosphate, and that value could then become a dominating source of phosphate and would be quite problematic. Purifying tap water is important for this and many other reasons.

The same sort of calculation applies to analyzing other phosphate issues, such as the GAC in scenario three. The issue of finding "high" phosphate in GAC soaked in fresh water was frequently quoted as a reason to use one or the other brand of GAC, and probably still is. But simple analysis as shown above for the food rinsing puts the lie to this being a big problem.

One needs to consider how much GAC one will really use in the aquarium and how often it is added in order to interpret how important the added phosphate is. A typical recommendation might be 1 cup of GAC per 100 gallons of aquarium water, and to change it in 4-6 weeks. Let's assume we detect 0.5 ppm phosphate when a teaspoon is placed in a cup of water, and we get scared by the dark blue color during the test. Is this reasonable? That 0.5 ppm from a teaspoon in a cup of water translates to 0.015 ppm phosphate when a cup is used in 100 gallons.

That 0.015 ppm may be significant, being a typical target concentration level for reef aquaria and amounting to about half to a twentieth of the amount added daily in foods, but remember, it is used for 4-6 weeks. During those 4-6 weeks before the next replacement, foods add 50-700 times as much phosphate. So while it is not unreasonable to look for another brand of GAC, to blame phosphate or algae issues in the aquarium on its use would stretch credibility because it is a very tiny portion of the total phosphate being added.

 

[Reefahholic]

Randy, going back to the topic of food and the extreme amount of PO4 added by flake or pellets...are there particular foods you like to feed to avoid PO4 buildup?

Like me, I know you enjoy keeping Gigantea's and you know as well as I do- that they don't like poor conditions. They will get up and walk then deflate on you. IMO the hardest anemone to keep on the planet.

 

[Cflip]

Can't figure out why I still have high phosphates when my tank is in Fallow. I'm not doing water changes. All sponges have been removed. No feeding. They are not high just high for being empty. About at .5.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Can't figure out why I still have high phosphates when my tank is in Fallow. I'm not doing water changes. All sponges have been removed. No feeding. They are not high just high for being empty. About at .5.

Are you doing anything to export phosphate?

 

[Cflip]

Are you doing anything to export phosphate?

Started to add phosoguard in a filter bag. Have a sump and skimmer going. Any other suggestions?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Randy, going back to the topic of food and the extreme amount of PO4 added by flake or pellets...are there particular foods you like to feed to avoid PO4 buildup?
.

Not really, no. All foods need to have substantial phosphate, but any that have bone meal in them may have an unusually large amount.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Started to add phosoguard in a filter bag. Have a sump and skimmer going. Any other suggestions?

That's a reasonable plan.