Help with dino identification please.
- Thread starter Rigoberto
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Yep. Dinos. Have you got UV?
Rigoberto
Community Member
I do. However, I am not sure if this variety goes waterbourne or into the sand. It looks like they are in the sand.
Rigoberto
Community Member
Currently am dosing NeoPhos to keep phosphates from bottoming and sodium silicate (41%). Daily dosing of microbacter 7. Running carbon. Nitrates are stable - just normal feeding.
When this all started PO4 and NO3 were both 0 (for months). The tank was established with no live rock/sand and only addition of bacteria. Its about 2 years old now.
Currently:
Nitrates are 10
Phosphates are being rapidly depleted daily from .08 to .04
Silica is 5ppm
Water is 78
The tank has a skimmer (24 hours a day) and ATS (running 8 hours day). I am running a normal illumination schedule but have reduced white spectrum. I am not doing water changes at this point.
I see some diatoms, but a LOT more dinos.
The corals (gorgonians, softies and sponges) and fish don't seem too perturbed. So, I guess these are not that toxic?
I will let you all know how it goes. Confirmations on the identification and treatment regime are appreciated.
Thanks!
When this all started PO4 and NO3 were both 0 (for months). The tank was established with no live rock/sand and only addition of bacteria. Its about 2 years old now.
Currently:
Nitrates are 10
Phosphates are being rapidly depleted daily from .08 to .04
Silica is 5ppm
Water is 78
The tank has a skimmer (24 hours a day) and ATS (running 8 hours day). I am running a normal illumination schedule but have reduced white spectrum. I am not doing water changes at this point.
I see some diatoms, but a LOT more dinos.
The corals (gorgonians, softies and sponges) and fish don't seem too perturbed. So, I guess these are not that toxic?
I will let you all know how it goes. Confirmations on the identification and treatment regime are appreciated.
Thanks!
If it goes away with darkness only to come back with lights on, then UV should work well. But you're right, diatoms will likely take over. With silicates present, diatoms have the ability to create their cell walls. But bottoming out silicates does not necessarily equate to their ultimate absence. Now, Copepods can do the trick. They eat lots of things, including diatoms and dinos. Or you can update your CUC. Or both. But we're still treating the problem rather than finding root cause. That is generally the abundance of space on the sand and rocks not taken up by beneficial bacteria. One can use MB7 to bolster your Bacterial population. In the end tho, it's gonna be establishing a balance in your tank to thwart these pests.
I see Prorocentrum. Really the only ones I would use UV for would be Ostreopsis and they look like a sesame seed with a sharp beak.
You are on the right track. Keep up the fight.
You are on the right track. Keep up the fight.
Rigoberto
Community Member
Thanks, I regularly add Copepods... There are some big ones in the sump on the ATS. I am going to switch to more of a focus on Tisbee variety, and see how that goes. I may try to get some frags with rock to increase the bacteria diversity... I am definitely going to keep the NO3, PO4 and SI up for the forseeable future and try to manage that with CUC including pods.
You can read more around here also about carbon dosing at night in theory to feed the good stuff while the dinos are under the sand for the night. I can't say it help but definitely didn't hurt. I was dosing Bacto Balance at night.
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Dinoflagelates. A disruptive treatment
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Rigoberto
Community Member
According to https://www.mdpi.com/2072-6651/11/10/571 there are at least 70 varieties of these bad boys. The image that I provided looks like Prorocentrum Malayense in the paper. The authors report that this variety is not very toxic. This is consistent with what I see happening in the tank. So, I resist the urge to over-react.
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Sounds like an appropriate response.According to https://www.mdpi.com/2072-6651/11/10/571 there are at least 70 varieties of these bad boys. The image that I provided looks like Prorocentrum Malayense in the paper. The authors report that this variety is not very toxic. This is consistent with what I see happening in the tank. So, I resist the urge to over-react.
Rigoberto
Community Member
So, have been dosing for one month (PO4:@.1, NO3@10-15, Si@?). Adding MB7 periodically, but not consistently. Tank has ATS, skimmer, and floss media. Skimmer produces quite a bit of skimmate. Under the microscope skimmate appears to be random debris - flotsam and jetsam. Not sure what it is, but it doesn't look like dinos.
Hanna ran out of the Si test reagent. So, I am not quite sure where I am on Si concentration. I am dosing at the high end of what I would expect to be consumed. Perhaps, it is not enough? Expect reagent back in stock next week.
4xTisbee was added (algaebarn) fish like them - can see clowns hunting, but no miraculous effect on dinos. This was about 6 weeks ago. I don't plan to add more at this time.
I have been siphoning rock and occasionally siphoning sand. I typically change the floss media regularly (daily/every other). Siphon possibly had detrimental effect on this population. I am going to stop with the siphoning rock/sand, and mechanical filtration (keeping ATS and skimmer) to let nature take its course. Will continue running GAC.
No water changes in this time period (6 plus weeks). I mainly top off with RO/DI which tests at 0. PO4 and Si are added to top off. I top off with saltwater (red sea reef) to keep salinity at 33-34. Under microscope, I see a lot more diatoms. However, prorocentrum persist (dominant) and in substantial numbers. Added snails/crabs about a month ago. Snail CUC fatality rate is pretty high.
Procentrum colonies are clearly visible on rocks/sand during day. They diminish as night.
Noting research that tracks prorocentrum growth rate to water temperature with optimal growth at 25c with lower growth at 30c, I have put the lid on the tank and begun raising the temperature... my plan is to slowly raise to ~30c and hold. I also noted some anecdotal reports on this forum reporting higher temps having desirable impact o (e.g. 28c). I have run tanks 82-84 in the past... so, not worried about the absolute level.
I was diving on healthy reefs (some gorgonian dominant) in Belize this summer... surprising (to me) 29-30c on the reef was common. Water surface temperatures were 32c in places. These reefs were at 60-70 feet. The coldest water temperature I experienced was 28c in the blue hole at ~130 feet. Not much but sharks down deep. According to the boat captain, who was also an oceanographer, the salinity in the area of the reefs was commonly 36ppt (30-50 miles off shore).
I also adjusted most of the white from the light source starting now. Lights ramp to 100% from 10a-2p with 8 hour period lower intensity for a total of 12 hours.
Hanna ran out of the Si test reagent. So, I am not quite sure where I am on Si concentration. I am dosing at the high end of what I would expect to be consumed. Perhaps, it is not enough? Expect reagent back in stock next week.
4xTisbee was added (algaebarn) fish like them - can see clowns hunting, but no miraculous effect on dinos. This was about 6 weeks ago. I don't plan to add more at this time.
I have been siphoning rock and occasionally siphoning sand. I typically change the floss media regularly (daily/every other). Siphon possibly had detrimental effect on this population. I am going to stop with the siphoning rock/sand, and mechanical filtration (keeping ATS and skimmer) to let nature take its course. Will continue running GAC.
No water changes in this time period (6 plus weeks). I mainly top off with RO/DI which tests at 0. PO4 and Si are added to top off. I top off with saltwater (red sea reef) to keep salinity at 33-34. Under microscope, I see a lot more diatoms. However, prorocentrum persist (dominant) and in substantial numbers. Added snails/crabs about a month ago. Snail CUC fatality rate is pretty high.
Procentrum colonies are clearly visible on rocks/sand during day. They diminish as night.
Noting research that tracks prorocentrum growth rate to water temperature with optimal growth at 25c with lower growth at 30c, I have put the lid on the tank and begun raising the temperature... my plan is to slowly raise to ~30c and hold. I also noted some anecdotal reports on this forum reporting higher temps having desirable impact o (e.g. 28c). I have run tanks 82-84 in the past... so, not worried about the absolute level.
I was diving on healthy reefs (some gorgonian dominant) in Belize this summer... surprising (to me) 29-30c on the reef was common. Water surface temperatures were 32c in places. These reefs were at 60-70 feet. The coldest water temperature I experienced was 28c in the blue hole at ~130 feet. Not much but sharks down deep. According to the boat captain, who was also an oceanographer, the salinity in the area of the reefs was commonly 36ppt (30-50 miles off shore).
I also adjusted most of the white from the light source starting now. Lights ramp to 100% from 10a-2p with 8 hour period lower intensity for a total of 12 hours.
Rigoberto
Community Member
Test kits for Silica came in ... reading at 3ppm Silica.
Tank is now at 86F (30c). With the warmer temperatures, I got a diatom bloom coating glass rocks, substrate. Yay. Dinoflagellates seem to be losing the war. All the soft coral seems to be tolerating the regime well.
No gravel siphoning, no glass cleaning. I am running floss, but changing it infrequently.
I have been dosing Dr. Tim's eco balance. A "Treasure Chest" from TBS is on the way at beginning of October... a few pounds of premium rock and live sand. The plan is to add this to the main display.
Tank is now at 86F (30c). With the warmer temperatures, I got a diatom bloom coating glass rocks, substrate. Yay. Dinoflagellates seem to be losing the war. All the soft coral seems to be tolerating the regime well.
No gravel siphoning, no glass cleaning. I am running floss, but changing it infrequently.
I have been dosing Dr. Tim's eco balance. A "Treasure Chest" from TBS is on the way at beginning of October... a few pounds of premium rock and live sand. The plan is to add this to the main display.
Rigoberto
Community Member
Dino's are gone.... I am still reluctant to do a water change. Nitrates are 15. Phosphates are at .16.
I am pretty confident if I resume 10% weekly water changes, these nutriets will come down to optimal levels.
However, I am concerned about a resurgence of the dinos, everthing is well adjusted and the tank appears to be going the right direction. So, I am thinking I will go a few more weeks before starting back with 10% WC.
It took about 2-3 months to get here. What really seemed to turn the dino war around in my tank:
0a) Hannah NO3, PO4 and SI test kits.
0b) A microscope for identification and progress tracking purposes.
1) Raised/held temperature water temperature at 86F (tank is covered).
3a) Stopped water changes and all manual removal/siphoning.
3b) Quit the reef diapers, added floss to rigid overflow. Changed floss periodically but not religiously.
3c) Ran the ATS anywhere from 8-12 hours/day to modulate Nitrates/Phosphates.
3d) Ran skimmer 24 hours a day.
3e) Ran a "normal" lighting schedule including all the spectrum similar to what I want long term.
4a) Added live rock from TBS. Yay, live rock people at TBS.
4b) Added Tisbee (and also mixed) PODS.
4c) Added two emerald crabs, two pom-pom crabs, a variety of snails and hermit crabs from Reef Cleaners.
5) Dosed Silicon to a level in the range of 2-4ppm. (Got lots of diatoms).
5b) Dosed a LOT of PO4 (bottles of it) to keep PO4 from going to zero initially.
5c) Upon arrival of the diatom blooms, I did not immediately scrape glass ... maybe once a week. As the population started to take off, I turned off pumps and scraped them down to the sand when I did clean the glass. After a few weeks, I just cleaned the glass when I could see it start to get furry.
6) Nitrates have been 15 consistently, Phosphates peaked at .3. I stopped dosing liquid glass and now am just topping off with RO/DI and Kalk.
I am pretty confident if I resume 10% weekly water changes, these nutriets will come down to optimal levels.
However, I am concerned about a resurgence of the dinos, everthing is well adjusted and the tank appears to be going the right direction. So, I am thinking I will go a few more weeks before starting back with 10% WC.
It took about 2-3 months to get here. What really seemed to turn the dino war around in my tank:
0a) Hannah NO3, PO4 and SI test kits.
0b) A microscope for identification and progress tracking purposes.
1) Raised/held temperature water temperature at 86F (tank is covered).
3a) Stopped water changes and all manual removal/siphoning.
3b) Quit the reef diapers, added floss to rigid overflow. Changed floss periodically but not religiously.
3c) Ran the ATS anywhere from 8-12 hours/day to modulate Nitrates/Phosphates.
3d) Ran skimmer 24 hours a day.
3e) Ran a "normal" lighting schedule including all the spectrum similar to what I want long term.
4a) Added live rock from TBS. Yay, live rock people at TBS.
4b) Added Tisbee (and also mixed) PODS.
4c) Added two emerald crabs, two pom-pom crabs, a variety of snails and hermit crabs from Reef Cleaners.
5) Dosed Silicon to a level in the range of 2-4ppm. (Got lots of diatoms).
5b) Dosed a LOT of PO4 (bottles of it) to keep PO4 from going to zero initially.
5c) Upon arrival of the diatom blooms, I did not immediately scrape glass ... maybe once a week. As the population started to take off, I turned off pumps and scraped them down to the sand when I did clean the glass. After a few weeks, I just cleaned the glass when I could see it start to get furry.
6) Nitrates have been 15 consistently, Phosphates peaked at .3. I stopped dosing liquid glass and now am just topping off with RO/DI and Kalk.
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