Help needed ‍♀️ high ammonia

[Zokki]

Hello,
I don’t know how exactly all started but I have high ammonia for over 3 weeks now. I’m adding api ammonia lock, prime, api quick start and stability.I did water change 4 times and ammonia is still the same. I had star fish that my puffer was picking all the time and die and one small goby that end up killed kinda at the same time. I’m wondering would it help if I get rid of some of the sand? My corals are absolutely dead but my fish is still doing well and I don’t want to harm them. Any suggestions? I read a lot but I can’t find information about the sand and I’m wondering if there is something left from the star fish will it be better to dig the sand and get rid of some but I don’t know will I kill good bacteria and will it create more ammonia spike…. I’m new to it so please be nice. I bought 3 years old fish tank with the fish and the stones. It was doing very well but now I really don’t know what else can I do

 

[Zokki]

Hello,
I don’t know how exactly all started but I have high ammonia for over 3 weeks now. I’m adding api ammonia lock, prime, api quick start and stability.I did water change 4 times and ammonia is still the same. I had star fish that my puffer was picking all the time and die and one small goby that end up killed kinda at the same time. I’m wondering would it help if I get rid of some of the sand? My corals are absolutely dead but my fish is still doing well and I don’t want to harm them. Any suggestions? I read a lot but I can’t find information about the sand and I’m wondering if there is something left from the star fish will it be better to dig the sand and get rid of some but I don’t know will I kill good bacteria and will it create more ammonia spike…. I’m new to it so please be nice. I bought 3 years old fish tank with the fish and the stones. It was doing very well but now I really don’t know what else can I do

My ammonia is between 0.8 - 1,2 ( Red Sea test and api test )
Salinity is 1.025
Temperature 25,3
No3 - 10
Ph 8,2

 

[brandon429]

You have a false reading due to the additives given in response to an original false reading, those kits do this all day long/ cause unfounded panic

to fix your issue, post a clear picture of your tank there are details in the picture that will ease the concern.


non digital ammonia kits= guaranteed false ammonia panic

calibrated digital nh3 ammonia kits= no false ammonia alerts.

 

[Zokki]

You have a false reading due to the additives given in response to an original false reading, those kits do this all day long/ cause unfounded panic

to fix your issue, post a clear picture of your tank there are details in the picture that will ease the concern.


non digital ammonia kits= guaranteed false ammonia panic

calibrated digital nh3 ammonia kits= no false ammonia alerts.

 

[Zokki]

I read that prime can make the results different but my fish are not so active anymore and they are more on the bottom. Also my poor shrimp have black inside.

 

[brandon429]

none of those are symptoms of ammonia poisoning, and that system can't have ammonia poisoning / it does not work that way, all those rocks and sand are full of active bacteria. you can absolutely rule out ammonia at the start as a cause, or now. transferring the system to your home/upwelling a bunch of waste is a more likely cause and so is basic fish disease from skipping fallow and quarantine preps. the shrimp have a gut that is prominently seen through the skin/that's gut waste you're seeing or pre-molt changes.

your tank is exactly like all these: false ammonia alerts-

Sustained Ammonia spikes are misreads

The reason you think your reef tank can’t control its ammonia is due to false training from old cycling science. That and you don’t own a seneye on the tank in question: if you did, you wouldn’t ever think your ammonia was out of control...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[brandon429]

the way free ammonia works in a stocked and running, well past the cycle reef tank is this way:

the system either trends towards total crash in 48 hours due to non control or it drives down ammonia into the thousandths ppm nh3 which your test kits cannot show at any phase. there is no middle ground, you're reporting a hovering middle ground reading/which is the signal of a false ammonia alert. that's a fine system, a very very good system/not in ammonia distress whatsoever.

*going forward: cease testing for ammonia on this reef, and nitrite, those can't be out of spec after the cycle and your tank is post-cycle we can see through several markers in the pics. ceasing testing will get you to stop adding all the reactive dosers which could stress the system once enough are added (oxygen tax for example when people keep adding bottle bacteria over and over in false cycle stalls)

and by not testing for ammonia ever again, because it can't rise up to harm your system, you'll be forced to consider alternate causatives for fish loss. Those shrimp would have never lasted 1 hour inside ammonia levels as high as reported. that's why pics beat test kit readings for discerning ammonia status always.

= your cycle is now fixed

if you are determined to test ammonia anyway/don't believe what I'm saying despite that study thread/buy a $190 seneye machine/no other kit will work. I recommend you don't buy the machine though, it would be a waste of cash to test something that can't be out of spec in a running, stocked, post cycle display reef tank.

 

[Zokki]

And nothing left from my corals

 

[Zokki]

the way free ammonia works in a stocked and running, well past the cycle reef tank is this way:

the system either trends towards total crash in 48 hours due to non control or it drives down ammonia into the thousandths ppm nh3 which your test kits cannot show at any phase. there is no middle ground, you're reporting a hovering middle ground reading/which is the signal of a false ammonia alert. that's a fine system, a very very good system/not in ammonia distress whatsoever.

*going forward: cease testing for ammonia on this reef, and nitrite, those can't be out of spec after the cycle and your tank is post-cycle we can see through several markers in the pics. ceasing testing will get you to stop adding all the reactive dosers which could stress the system once enough are added (oxygen tax for example when people keep adding bottle bacteria over and over in false cycle stalls)

and by not testing for ammonia ever again, because it can't rise up to harm your system, you'll be forced to consider alternate causatives for fish loss. Those shrimp would have never lasted 1 hour inside ammonia levels as high as reported. that's why pics beat test kit readings for discerning ammonia status always.

= your cycle is now fixed

if you are determined to test ammonia anyway/don't believe what I'm saying despite that study thread/buy a $190 seneye machine/no other kit will work. I recommend you don't buy the machine though, it would be a waste of cash to test something that can't be out of spec in a running, stocked, post cycle display reef tank.

You are probably right. Everything was good before I start treating for high n03 and ammonia. I’m wondering can high temperature kill my corals? Marine and reef tanks are like full science and I wasn’t expecting to be as hard as it is. I read books about it but nothing can prepare before you actually get it and have all those issues.

 

[brandon429]

temps at 81-82 are still ok, there are reefs in the Philippines that run 90 degrees nearly always/corals grow

where high temps harm a reef tank is they bring on massive invasion challenges. I would not let a reef tank get above 82/enact chiller designs at that temp. aim for 79

 

[MnFish1]

I agree with Brandon - that the levels of ammonia you're seeing aren't causing the problem - BUT - I disagree that they may not be a symptom of an ongoing problem. Prime, etc - if you continue to add it - will continue to show a positive ammonia test when you stop it, the level SHOULD decline over 1-2 days.

Assuming you've checked your ammonia levels (this would be total ammonia by the way) with a couple different tests - and have done them correctly, It would suggest that whether its feeding, dying things or something else is causing a small increase in total ammonia. I would concentrate on those potential causes temperature, salinity, other parameters, additives, potential toxins in the water, etc.

I would get a seachem alert badge (which ALLEGEDLY measures the more toxic 'free ammonia')- stop adding things and watch to see if the ammonia level changes after stopping Prime. There are many people who debate which test is best etc - but I have not had issues with either API nor Seachem alert badges.

If you look at the experiment that I did with fresh water - prime did not seem to change the amount of ammonia seen on the Seachem alert - but at least its a cheap double check of your ammonia levels - and when you stop the prime you can see if it falls (if its positive in the first place). The advantage is that you don't have to do repeated tests.

Confirming - Prime does not seem to lower ammonia - Seachem Alert

Hypothesis: There will be no difference between Free ammonia levels as measured by a seachem alert badge in the presence of Prime (IN FRESH RODI WATER). Background: Numerous experiments have been done which seem to suggest Prime does not lower ammonia as measured by various tests in...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[StatelineReefer]

On the topic of temperature, come down to 76 for a short time. If it's a bacterial outbreak like Vibrio, the lower temperatures buy you and the corals more time to fight it. Whether that looks like UV or a more active approach is up to you.

 

[melonheadorion]

i suspect that this is a new tank?? and, if my suspicions are correct, i would also suspect that, with all the stuff within the tank, it would not surprise me as to the cause and effect

 

[MnFish1]

On the topic of temperature, come down to 76 for a short time. If it's a bacterial outbreak like Vibrio, the lower temperatures buy you and the corals more time to fight it. Whether that looks like UV or a more active approach is up to you.

As you're suggesting - the problem with high temperatures is that bacteria (which use oxygen) grow much faster i.e. at 81-82 vs 78. Having dying corals, will also cause there to be more 'food' for bacteria. IF this is vibrio, I would doubt that lowering the temperature will help, and may, in fact weaken the fish some. However - it will decrease bacterial growth - and raise dissolved oxygen some. Not meaning this as a criticism - only that it seems like he has made a fair number of changes...

 

[Zokki]

i suspect that this is a new tank?? and, if my suspicions are correct, i would also suspect that, with all the stuff within the tank, it would not surprise me as to the cause and effect

I bought the tank with everything in it just move it from one house to another. It was good for some time but adding more to it make it worse. I had ich and I had high n03 that I think I handled well with no losses but whatever is happening now I can’t manage. I hope ammonia test is false but there is still something going on

 

[MnFish1]

I bought the tank with everything in it just move it from one house to another. It was good for some time but adding more to it make it worse. I had ich and I had high n03 that I think I handled well with no losses but whatever is happening now I can’t manage. I hope ammonia test is false but there is still something going on

Curious - how did you treat the Ich? Could that have affected your invertebrates? (or did you use a hospital tank)? How long ago was the move? How long did the move take? In theory the bacteria in the rock should have survived enough to not have an ammonia problem. Did you keep it wet all the time - aeration? Could other things in the rock have died during transport - causing a rise in ammonia? was the high nitrate after or before the move - or unknown. If it was low before and high now that would suggest your ammonia detoxifying bacteria are 'working'.

 

[brandon429]

It is false, sandbeds don't store ammonia and neither do rocks. Only a dead rotting animal or metabolic waste from a living animal is the source, and occasionally well water as topoff water is a source: not in your tank though, per pics that's a totally ammonia controlled system.

 

[StatelineReefer]

It is false, sandbeds don't store ammonia and neither do rocks.

He never mentioned rocks storing ammonia

Only a dead rotting animal or metabolic waste from a living animal is the source,

That he did mention.

and occasionally well water as topoff water is a source: not in your tank though, per pics that's a totally ammonia controlled system.

No further notes.

 

[MnFish1]

It is false, sandbeds don't store ammonia and neither do rocks. Only a dead rotting animal or metabolic waste from a living animal is the source, and occasionally well water as topoff water is a source: not in your tank though, per pics that's a totally ammonia controlled system.

No one mentioned sand-beds or rocks storing ammonia. The key is/was (IMHO) - 1. His fish had Ich, 2. He does have dying coral. 3. Most importantly - he moved the tank from one location to another. Usually - unless there was a long delay, etc - (as I said) this should not be an issue. But we don't know the information.

IMHO - it is a symptom of a problem in the tank (the low level of ammonia) - rather than the CAUSE of the problem. Obviously - we know there are problems from his post. Of course it could be a false reading - but the High nitrate is coming from somewhere. - and depending on when the reading was taken, could reflect an ammonia spike in the past.

PS - if I took a picture of my tank (which I did in my ammonia experiments) - even with 4 ppm ammonia, Coraline algae etc looked 'fine'. Ammonia is not processed 'immediately'. Except for the sick fish and dying coral - I do agree with you - the tank 'looks fine'.

 

[MnFish1]

I bought the tank with everything in it just move it from one house to another. It was good for some time but adding more to it make it worse. I had ich and I had high n03 that I think I handled well with no losses but whatever is happening now I can’t manage. I hope ammonia test is false but there is still something going on

Did you move the sand and all the water with you?