Help...Green Hair Algae is driving me crazy

[Retro Reefer]

Think your on the right track but more than likely it will keep fighting you until it runs its course so give it time your tank is awful young.. If your just throwing a 1/4 cube once a day you may want to dived that up into a few daily feedings.. I try to only feed just what my fish can eat before the food starts hitting the sand bed and I do that 3 or 4 times a day and it helps keep it cleaner, I know that probably easier said than done for most but I’m retired and have the time.

 

[grassy_noel]

Yeah, ideally I would do that. But on weekdays my overlap with the tank when the lights are actually on is only 5:30-8:00pm. So that would be pretty tough. Thanks for the encouragement!

 

[mcarroll]

Consider shifting the tank's photoperiod to match your schedule.

 

[Paul B]

Like Moses said (to me) This to shall pass

 

[Dogtown]

Forget the toothbrush. A 1/2 dose of fluconazole and you algae issues will be a thing of the past. The algae will just wilt and disappear over the course of a few weeks. It is what Jason Fox uses in his tanks, as do I.

 

[grassy_noel]

@mcarroll not sure why I hadn't thought of that...maybe that's what I should do. Is there any reason the lights couldn't be on from say 2:00pm to 10:00pm? Then I could feed when I get home at 5:30pm and again at say 9:30pm? Is that too soon before lights-out to feed?

@Paul B thanks for the encouragement!

@Dogtown you make this sound awfully tempting. I've got the fluconazole sitting on my cabinet next to my tank now...it's taking everything in me not to just dose it...I'll say hearing Jason Fox uses it makes me even more tempted. Do you know, is it a once and never again sort of thing? Or could I use it again, say in 6 months, if my algae problem recurs? I'm asking because I realize my tank is quite young, and even if I'm able to eradicate this round of GHA with an anti-fungal, it may still be a while before I have enough coralline coverage and coral nutrient uptake to ensure it doesn't happen again. Thanks!

So, just a quick update. After my major cleaning on Friday afternoon, I returned home late yesterday afternoon:

• Tank looks generally ok. Both fish, my cleaner shrimp, and all CUC seem to be alive and well.
• Some whisps of GHA are back on the rocks again, but it looks distinctly browner than before. It used to be bright green and now it looks like a much dingier brown. Any idea what this means?
• My substrate was WHITE, pristine when I left, because I had manually removed every spot of algae on the substrate by scooping the algae out with a spoon. As I mentioned, this also removed about 25% of my substrate. Well, already I've got at least a dozen spots back on the substrate. Also brown-ish, like what's on the rocks, but still definitely long filamentous hair, with no branching (I've looked really closely at it to make sure it's not fern-like like bryopsis). So, it appears that despite my best efforts to physically remove it from my substrate, I'm just not getting it all. This is why fluconazole is seeming so tempting...
• Also, as I mentioned last time, my alkalinity uptake has slowed. I think is mostly due to reducing my photoperiod by ~20% and all but eliminating everything but the blues. Now I'm running my radion XR15 at 100% on all three blue channels, 10% white, and 5% green and red. My overall intensity ramps from 0%-25%-30%-25%-0% over an 8 hour period. So really it's not a lot of light...
• For what it's worth, I think I will lose my two little birds nest frags. I bought these as "canaries" to see if the tank was ready for SPS corals...then all this algae business happened. After 2-3 weeks of looking great and even growing a bit at the tips, the birds nests are now losing polyps and the membrane around the skeleton. Not from the bottom up, like I would have expected, but just kind of all over. My two montipora frags, however, are doing great...

Well, again thanks for all of your assistance on this thread. I think I'll muscle through this week and see how bad things get by the weekend. When it's time for maintenance this weekend, I will do another manual removal and then decide whether to keep fighting by hand or to dose the fluco...

Happy short week to everyone!

 

[Dogtown]

@Dogtown you make this sound awfully tempting. I've got the fluconazole sitting on my cabinet next to my tank now...it's taking everything in me not to just dose it...I'll say hearing Jason Fox uses it makes me even more tempted. Do you know, is it a once and never again sort of thing? Or could I use it again, say in 6 months, if my algae problem recurs? I'm asking because I realize my tank is quite young, and even if I'm able to eradicate this round of GHA with an anti-fungal, it may still be a while before I have enough coralline coverage and coral nutrient uptake to ensure it doesn't happen again. Thanks!


In answer to your question, Fluconazole breaks down over time so you can definitely use it again if your algae problem recurs. Its very safe and you can start with a half or quarter dose if you want to. Even if you did a full dose, it takes a couple of weeks to see it work so don't expect to see it all disappear overnight.

Here are some tips but since you already have the medicine you may already read about these:

• A full dose is 20mg of Fluconazole per gallon of water. This is a one and done regimen for the duration of the treatment. You can start with a smaller dose of 5 or 10mg per gallon if you like (I went with 20). Wait two weeks to decide if you want to add more but don't go beyond 20mg in total just to be safe.
• A treatment is generally considered to last for 14 days. In my experience, it lasted longer at 30-45 days but I didn't remove it with carbon.
• Cheato survived the treatment but GHA didn't. Corals and fish were unaffected. I won't say that the cheato was growing so well during the treatment but it didn't die off either.
• A few of months after treatment I started seeing GHA growing in my refugium once again so I know it has broken down naturally with time.
• Remove the skimmer cup for the duration of the 14 day treatment. You want oxygenation but not skimming. If you must skim, then skim very dry.
• Remove carbon media from your tank during the 14 day treatment if you have any.

Watch this video of Jason Fox and you will see where he discusses how he uses it himself.
Good luck

 

[mcarroll]

@mcarroll not sure why I hadn't thought of that...maybe that's what I should do. Is there any reason the lights couldn't be on from say 2:00pm to 10:00pm? Then I could feed when I get home at 5:30pm and again at say 9:30pm? Is that too soon before lights-out to feed?

You can set up the lights so that they come on exactly right so that it's feeding time when you get home.

(And I don't think there's a wrong time of day to feed, unless your fish are asleep. Nothing so "wrong" that it appears to make a difference, anyway.)

Some whisps of GHA are back on the rocks again, but it looks distinctly browner than before. It used to be bright green and now it looks like a much dingier brown. Any idea what this means?

Probably that the algae isn't healthy enough to ward off epiphytes – that's what makes the green hair algae look brown in most cases. (could be diatoms, dinos, etc....those are probably the most common visible epiphytes)

Keep doing what you're doing. And don't panic. There's no advantage to short-cutting anything in this hobby.

Remember that this was likely brought on by depleted nutrients – this means that your tank is still going through it's growth phases, which include the uglies.

Zapping the tank with carbon dosing, nutrient removing media or other questionable new-tank treatments and you don'y accomplish anything except setting back the tank's maturity by an unknown amount.

Given that dino's are one of the more common things to come out of a tank started like this and in this condition, I would not be playing it very very safe, and very, very conservative from here on.

BRS recommended switching to frozen as it's less nutrient-dense. I'm also rinsing in RO before adding to the tank.

Did you get this advice directly from someone at BRS? (Sounds more like general advice that's given around the forums is why I ask....does not sound tailored to your situation.)

IMO there are clear advantages to both types of feed. It's unfortunate they didn't recommend live or other non-frozen food (i.e. fish eggs), as that's the best option by a huge margin. NO problems with cell integrity or nutrient balance.

There is probably a better frozen item you could have picked for the switch too...mysis is more of a supplement or picky-eater food IMO.

For their staple food, select something with color (orange, like them, is a good one) that is also from the ocean. If you let me know what brands your store carries I can recommend specifics....but you may get the idea already.

but now I'm just leaving it, because the toothbrush was just putting all the GHA up in the water column, and I think that's how it seeded all over the substrate.

This is a direct indication of two things: 1) how immature your tank still is if algae was able seed that much, that quickly from that one event and 2) how you are still favoring the algae by the lack of nutrients in the water.

It's literally retarding the maturation of your tank – and the algae are capitalizing on it. That leaves all the cleanup work to you and your snails as long as it's allowed to continue. Yuk!

I'd probably double your CUC if it still doesn't look like they're making a dent after you do a cleanup.....you have to do something like this every time you see an expansion of algae in the tank.

You might even have to double their numbers again if the first doubling still doesn't seem make a dent.

I have to guess (tell me if it seems right), but it sounds like the amount of area they have to cover has probably more than tripled, so you may even need to double your own efforts in the short term to stay ahead of this.

• I manually scooped out all of the substrate that had algae on it, about 25% of it. I'm soaking what I removed in hydrogen peroxide so that I can hopefully put it back in the future.

• On Friday, I took out two small rocks I have, each with one coral (a favia and a GSP), which were both overrun with GHA. I very carefully dripped hydrogen peroxide on the rock where the GHA was, avoiding getting any on the coral. I then rinsed the hydrogen peroxide off with RO water before returning the rocks to the tank. These rocks are now so clean it's not even funny, but I think this also may have killed the corals. They both looked pretty white and closed up when I left on Friday. I'm away until Monday, but we'll see if they come back or are dead when I get home.

Noooooooooooooooooo!

Definitely one of the most damaging/disruptive ways to use peroxide. It was a great test if you had any doubts about the killing power of peroxide! But not a very good way to handle algae in a new tank. Using a flamethrower would have gotten similar results. Okay, more charring.

If you want to direct peroxide against algae, try it more like this: Algae Cure!! Spot Treating Algae With Peroxide

Especially around corals.

Also, as I mentioned last time, my alkalinity uptake has slowed. I think is mostly due to reducing my photoperiod by ~20% and all but eliminating everything but the blues.

Cutting the photoperiod down is all I would do – restore normal colors to your lighting ASAP.

Reduced alk consumption is probably a combination of the lack of phosphates and the stress from the light change.

 

[cracker]

Mcarrol . Above you gave a resounding no to Grassy's post on treating sand with peroxide or the bases of several corals. just wondering if You advocate using peroxide in the tank instead of out .

 

[mcarroll]

just wondering if You advocate using peroxide in the tank instead of out .

Yes!

If you're gonna do it, this (below) is how I'd do it.

(And note the responses from others on that thread.....my guide at the top of the thread is the GOOD CONSERVATIVE WAY TO START but you can actually use it pretty aggressively if needed.

Ounce for ounce, its much better vs whole-tank treatments.

If you want to direct peroxide against algae, try it more like this: Algae Cure!! Spot Treating Algae With Peroxide

Especially around corals.

 

[cracker]

Thank You again !

 

[grassy_noel]

Well geez, it seems like everything I do is the wrong thing. So before I do anything else, let me propose some things based on my understanding of these responses and see if they're right or wrong:

1. Return my lights to the AB+ spectrum, but reduce the photoperiod to 6 hours? 4 hours?

2. Change foods to something not dried pellet, but not frozen. Would Nyos Gold Pods be a good choice (they're orange)? I think these are arctic pods (canalus?). If so, should I rinse this, or just feed straight out of the bottle?

3. Don't use peroxide outside of the tank. If I'm going to use it, do it in the tank, as a spot treatment? But in general, probably don't use it since it's harsh and I should just be patient...is that right?

4. Should I stop removing substrate covered in algae? That was included in the quote that got the "Nooooooooo" response, but it wasn't addressed directly. I haven't put any of it back, I've just been removing the part with the algae on it.

Am I understanding correctly that your recommendation, @mcarroll , is to not MINIMIZE nutrients, but to INCREASE them? I have to say, this is the exact opposite advice of everything else that I have read or heard, which is why I think that I keep doing the wrong things. You definitely seem to know what you're talking about, so you have my full attention, but I still don't understand the pathway from where I am to a system without an algae problem by increasing nutrients. What is the mechanism by which that happens?

Thanks!

 

[mcarroll]

Not sure why this is the only actual thread link in my Bookmarked Threads list....seems like it would be nice if the title was linked instead/in addition: 4724041

The thread title is "Is nutrient control an effective method of treating algae in a reef?"

Check that out for starters....next post still coming...

 

[cracker]

Grassy, Your not the only one who keeps getting it wrong. I'm either right in front of You or right behind !
Iv'e been following this thread because I have the same algae issues.

 

[mcarroll]

before I do anything else, let me propose some things based on my understanding of these responses and see if they're right or wrong:

1.

1) Yes (assuming AB+ translates to something like 20,000K), and lower the photoperiod.

BUT get some intensity readings from your lights first. How much light (in lux or PAR) is your tank actually getting?

2) Change what you mostly feed. Neither pellets not mysis are evil....just not as ideal as you could get.

(I really just wouldn't sign up for all the extra work of rinsing, etc....use something that's EASY instead.)

3) Right. Right. And right.

4) It wasn't the worst thing since it was pretty well covered in algae you'd have a HARD TIME dealing with manually – but I would just leave that sand out of the tank and go with what's left rather than trying to clean and return it. It could be used for another tank after leaving it to cure/cycle/re-mature.

Am I understanding correctly that your recommendation, @mcarroll , is to not MINIMIZE nutrients, but to INCREASE them?

Yep.

I have to say, this is the exact opposite advice of everything else that I have read or heard, which is why I think that I keep doing the wrong things.

Folks giving this advice get that response a lot.

All I can say is that you're right....it's pretty opposite. IMO it's hard to learn how to reef from reading advice online...it's such a complete mix of right, wrong, stale, fresh and random that I don't know how a newbie could do it. If that describes your situation at all, I'd recommend getting 1-3 good reefing books to supplement and ground your online studies.

Check out: How long is your aquarium book collection?

Folks online will do crazy things and recommend others do them too because for the most part nobody remembers where they get their advice online – there's no feedback. (Tell me in PM if you remember where you got most of your advice.)

Folks in books, by contrast, don't want to remembered for advising crazy things so the advice is higher quality (usually meaning "more conservative") and MUCH MORE SENSIBLE ALL THE WAY AROUND.

I still don't understand the pathway from where I am to a system without an algae problem by increasing nutrients. What is the mechanism by which that happens?

That thread I linked in the previous post explains a lot, but I'll re-explain here too.

Corals and algae can be thought of as plants in order to keep this simple.

Both need dissolved nutrients to perform elementary functions, not limited to growth, repair, reproduction, and photosynthesis.

If you systematically remove two essential macro-nutrients from the water, then things dependent on them will not prosper, and might die off.

The catch is that algae are not coral even if both "are plants" in some way...

Algae are much more varied in their lifestyles and are not, as a group, absolutely dependent on dissolve nutrients. Algae are also able to use phosphates that are bound to aragonite – coral skeletons like live rock and coral sand – when they grow on it. Aragonite can function very much like GFO in it's ability to hold phosphates.

Algae can also access other forms of nitrogen than just nitrate. So nitrate reduction/reading zero nitrates i the water is really one of the less-powerful "weapons" against algae as a group to begin with.

To put that in a nutshell: Even though you are detecting no PO4 or NO3 in tests of the water.....that doesn't mean that algae are being deprived of phosphates or nitrogen at all.

Let me know if I missed anything....gotta run for now

 

[grassy_noel]

I’ll send a longer response tomorrow, but for now I just wanted to say thank you for being so patient with my million questions and confusion on the nutrients issue! Your response is incredibly helpful and I hope this thread will be seen by others who are facing an algae outbreak with zero detectable nutrients in a young tank. I think there are a lot of us, and from what I’ve read, mostly only advice to further reduce nutrients.

For now, I’ll keep working as you suggest with no crazy cures (fluconazole, etc.) and I’ll let everyone know if/when things are resolved or at least begin to improve.

 

[Norcalreef]

I’ll send a longer response tomorrow, but for now I just wanted to say thank you for being so patient with my million questions and confusion on the nutrients issue! Your response is incredibly helpful and I hope this thread will be seen by others who are facing an algae outbreak with zero detectable nutrients in a young tank. I think there are a lot of us, and from what I’ve read, mostly only advice to further reduce nutrients.

For now, I’ll keep working as you suggest with no crazy cures (fluconazole, etc.) and I’ll let everyone know if/when things are resolved or at least begin to improve.

I have a fairly new system also running triton. Between refuge and skimmer nutrients were reading zero. I dosed 1ppm nitrate a few times and hair algae popped up.
So I stopped the nitrate dosing but it still stuck around. The other day I increased flow more. Within a few days hair algae was receding. So possibly try just increasing flow. In my tank at least the algae only seems to grow in the areas with less flow.

 

[Norcalreef]

Forgot to mention, I also add quite a bit of beneficial bacteria. Alternate between Bio Digest and Dr Tim’s. Let the good outcompete the bad. Also added a ton of sps. I feed extremely heavy, 5-6 times per day.

 

[Paul B]

As I said before, forget about it. It is a new tank and if algae didn't grow something would be wrong. It's supposed to grow in a new tank. Think of it as a good thing not a disease thing like the Bubonic Plague. It grows everywhere on every healthy reef.
It will pass eventually as it is part of a cycle. As you can see from all the advice you can try all sorts of things and in the end they will all work because IT LEAVES ON IT'S OWN and you will think whatever you did worked.
Tanks go through natural cycles and they need time to do that, if you short circuit the cycle by adding or removing stuff, you will continuously have problems. This is a living thing unlike Lady GaGa's meat dress.

If you feel ambitious you can make an algae scrubber to let the algae grow out of your display.
I recently took these in the Caribbean. Do you see any algae? They were going to add nutrients, remove nitrate or change the ocean but it was too costly so they left it alone. The ocean is fine.







And this was off Hawaii.


The Government wanted to change the photoperiod by hiring ducks to sit on the water in the hopes that it would shade the corals, but the duck poop made the algae grow faster.

In the sea there would be 400 tangs, 300 urchins, fifty snails and two manatees decending on that and it would be gone in 2 seconds.
If you want to learn about algae, put on a Speedo and jump in the ocean. That's where your corals came from and no matter what you do or don't do at this point the algae will do what it wants to do.
Go out to dinner or rent a movie.

 

[grassy_noel]

@Paul B your attitude is so refreshing, and makes me feel much better! I did have the idea of a "Hair Algae Reactor" come to me in a dream last night. Essentially, I'd reinstall my macroalgae reactor, forget the chaeto altogether, and just seed it with GHA.

If I'm feeling crazy and ambitious this weekend I might try it. Assuming I don't add any new chemicals or anything to the tank, I don't see how this can hurt. It basically just increases my water volume by two quarts and potentially gives GHA a favorable place to grow outside of my display. Any thoughts?

Thanks!