Helene: Managing High Ammonia in DT

[ariellemermaid]

I have a different thread on my Helene natural disaster journey. However, I wanted to make a thread specifically regarding ammonia management.

Our 200g DT was on bubbler-only for 2-3 days. Upon restart (of half the tank, no lights), ammonia is the highest I’ve ever seen it even when I’ve cycled tanks with ammonia! On api I’m getting 1.0-2. I’m new to Seachem so I’m not confident reading that yet, but free is zero as I’ve been dosing Prime.

I have no idea how many fish are still alive (at least 6) but I’ve removed all the dead ones I can find. The remaining ones seem to be doing fine with Prime-bound ammonia. I’ve stopped feeding entirely.

Am I missing anything in terms of ammonia removal aside from water change? No one in the city has water and might not for weeks; drinking water is a sought-after commodity so WC is out.

So pretty much just Prime every other day and wait for bacteria to catch up?

 

[TX_REEF]

that's a scary situation, sorry that you're dealing with that and I wish you the best.., maybe @Randy Holmes-Farley has some expert advice on reducing the toxicity while you keep your fingers crossed for power to come back on?

Assume buying/renting/borrowing a fuel generator is out of the question?

 

[PharmrJohn]

I was just thinking about ya this morning, wondering what the state of the stake was! I'm really sorry this is happening to ya. It sucks. If this is gonna be a long term deal, I would not stop feeding. Feed enough to get them by, but by not feedng you're trading one issue for another IMO. The bacteria should take care of the issue shortly. Are you running carbon? And how do you plan on topping off the tank? Without water for top off, I'm concerned about your salinity moving up to unacceptable levels.

I'm not sure about using rain water in your position, but perhaps someone else can comment to this. I'm not a fan of it, but you may not have much of a choice.

Whatever you try, take meticulous notes. You're forced into a VERY uncomfortable situation and whatever successes and failures you experience will come in handy for future events such as your going through.

 

[ariellemermaid]

that's a scary situation, sorry that you're dealing with that and I wish you the best.., maybe @Randy Holmes-Farley has some expert advice on reducing the toxicity while you keep your fingers crossed for power to come back on?

Assume buying/renting/borrowing a fuel generator is out of the question?

Disaster plan was to siphon fuel from one of 6 vehicles when no gas was available. After 3 days of trying that, I now know it’s impossible with modern anti siphon valves. However, after that I do have gas and am on generator to power half the tank which should be enough flow (1 return, heater, gyre). It’s a small generator and I need the freezer too.

I decided today to risk the power circuit and add my refugium light also, so maybe that’ll help a bit. I’ve got a ton of unintentional macro.

Haven’t tested salinity yet but I assume little evap from when there was no flow. Top off level is high though because just 1 return. However, I do have a brute of DI; I just feel I should save it for 1) topping off, or 2) emergency people water.

(Even if I used 30g DI for WC that’s 15%- so ammonia of ~1.5 would go to 1.3. Not super useful)

When I restarted the flow I did anticipate this and started Prime plus carbon. Just had the opportunity to test ammonia today given…everything.

 

[PharmrJohn]

Lord, what a mess. Good on ya for having the DI water handy. And I'm talking for yourself and family, not so much for the tank (although it'll certainly help). This reminds me to get supplies just in case we get a storm through here. Or Mt. Rainier blows. Mt. St. Helens already did, so at least we don't have to worry about that anymore.

 

[ariellemermaid]

Lord, what a mess. Good on ya for having the DI water handy. And I'm talking for yourself and family, not so much for the tank (although it'll certainly help). This reminds me to get supplies just in case we get a storm through here. Or Mt. Rainier blows. Mt. St. Helens already did, so at least we don't have to worry about that anymore.

Oh 4 vehicles damaged or destroyed, 8 trees down in the driveway and all over the property, no electricity or water on the order of weeks not days. For my part, it’s been an honor to be apart of a community all coming together to make sure everyone has what they need.

I was trying to be responsible, so before this hit I was running the gas through my generator to refresh. So the generator was only half full and my can was only half full. So I had even less gas than I normally would! But still, I wouldn’t have had nearly enough even for a few days. I guess in the future I’ll just keep several 5 gallon cans (the small generator I have uses 2g/day). Then every 1-2 years just dump it in my cars and refresh that way.

I also added 1 reef light today and a bunch of our demoiselles live! I mourn the 3 tangs, but it explains the lack of corpses. So that would mean this die off is pretty much just non-fish debris. I was having a big cyano outbreak before the outage too- no red left now.

PPT is 35 so still good there

 

[PharmrJohn]

Did anything hit the house?

 

[PharmrJohn]

Just remember to add some gas stabilizer or use it for your cars and replace every four or five months. Keep it sealed tight. There. I just went into Dad Mode. Lord, that's NEVER going to change!

 

[ariellemermaid]

Did anything hit the house?

No, structure is good and we’re safe which is something! We have easily available ethanol free gas as well, so stabilized, that should at least be good for a year or two before really worrying. I was just of the mindset before that whatever I stored for tools, I’d have to use for tools, but yeah, I can just dump it in cars on a schedule.

 

[PharmrJohn]

Oh yeah! Forgot about ethanol free. That does it right there. In the last couple of years we've transitioned to battery operated everything. So I forgot about E-Free. I even got a Greenworks chainsaw (80 volt --- The most powerful they have), with the hope it would be adequate. But even at max power it's pretty useless (to me anyway). Great for my wife to operate (she takes care of small things and I get the larger projects), but I need a gas powered unit by next spring. Basically the equivalent of an old school Stihl 025 or a tad larger. I think that's a 250 now.

Well, ya lucked out. And that ain't just something, that's everything at this point. Could you imagine trying to get a contractor out right now for house repair? Good Lord, that'd be MONTHS out. Easy. I'm very happy you and yours came out physically unscathed. My Cousin in NC lucked out hard. It came roaring through at full bore and he got some flooding but nothing unmanageable. We in the Pacific Northwest really have no big things we have to worry about. Except Volcanos. That 1980 St. Helens eruption knocked us for a loop. And when Mt. Rainier finally goes, it's gonna suck bad.

 

[ariellemermaid]

Oh yeah! Forgot about ethanol free. That does it right there. In the last couple of years we've transitioned to battery operated everything. So I forgot about E-Free. I even got a Greenworks chainsaw (80 volt --- The most powerful they have), with the hope it would be adequate. But even at max power it's pretty useless (to me anyway). Great for my wife to operate (she takes care of small things and I get the larger projects), but I need a gas powered unit by next spring. Basically the equivalent of an old school Stihl 025 or a tad larger. I think that's a 250 now.

OMG I got a greenworks chainsaw on clearance and it’s been the absolute bane of my existence. The most useless thing ever. Beyond barely cutting anything, the chain would keep jumping off the bar, sometimes bending. When I took it out this time it got stuck half way through a relatively small branch and I basically had to break the bar to get it out. Never again. I can only get a 14” gas right now but when this is all over I’ll not be caught without a decent gas chainsaw again. Besides, it would only have lasted one battery. This whole thing just goes to show you; electric is fine for some things sometimes, but gas has its place in the world. Same for my electric vs. gas pressure washer; the electric works fine and has some convenience, but it doesn’t come close to my gas in power for doing concrete sidewalks.

 

[Schulks]

I always struggled with ammonia tests. It seems anything can interfere with them. I would worry if adding prime to an aquarium causes false positives for your ammonia test. or if one can accurately judge the color of the test.

I decided my ammonia test can tell me if there is or is not ammonia. I could never accurately determine how much.

 

[PharmrJohn]

OMG I got a greenworks chainsaw on clearance and it’s been the absolute bane of my existence. The most useless thing ever. Beyond barely cutting anything, the chain would keep jumping off the bar, sometimes bending. When I took it out this time it got stuck half way through a relatively small branch and I basically had to break the bar to get it out. Never again. I can only get a 14” gas right now but when this is all over I’ll not be caught without a decent gas chainsaw again. Besides, it would only have lasted one battery. This whole thing just goes to show you; electric is fine for some things sometimes, but gas has its place in the world. Same for my electric vs. gas pressure washer; the electric works fine and has some convenience, but it doesn’t come close to my gas in power for doing concrete sidewalks.

LOL! Im glad it ain't just me! I was actually thinking that MAYBE it doesn't suck. It's just how I was using it! But NO! It IS terrible! At least I got an 80V battery out of the deal. And it was a good beginner saw for the wife. If she can manage to do anything with it, then when we get our 250, she'll rock it. It's pretty darn cute to see a 5 foot nothing lady sawing away with a tool she was at first utterly terrified of!

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Very sorry to hear what’s happening.

FWIW, Prime is not likely to be useful. Studies seem to indicate no ammonia benefit despite the claims.

keeping pH lower will help.

 

[ariellemermaid]

Very sorry to hear what’s happening.

FWIW, Prime is not likely to be useful. Studies seem to indicate no ammonia benefit despite the claims.

keeping pH lower will help.

When you say no ammonia benefit what do you mean precisely? No benefit in protecting stock, or that it doesn’t bind ammonia as it claims?

In either case, how are so many remaining fish alive with an ammonia in the 1-2 mg/L range? And if it’s not binding my ammonia then what do you think is, given my Seachem Total/free test results?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

When you say no ammonia benefit what do you mean precisely? No benefit in protecting stock, or that it doesn’t bind ammonia as it claims?

In either case, how are so many remaining fish alive with an ammonia in the 1-2 mg/L range? And if it’s not binding my ammonia then what do you think is, given my Seachem Total/free test results?

I mean it does not appear to be at all capable of binding ammonia at any recommended dose. In short, not useful.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

How are fish alive? Exactly the reason so many people think Prime works, sadly. Ammonia at 1-2 ppm does not kill otherwise healthy fish. It takes far more.

How toxic is ammonia, really?

In the context of trying to understand why so many people believe Seachem Prime was useful for them in an elevated ammonia situation, against the data in the link below about Prime potentially doing nothing to free ammonia in seawater, the question arises, why...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[ariellemermaid]

How are fish alive? Exactly the reason so many people think Prime works, sadly. Ammonia at 1-2 ppm does not kill otherwise healthy fish. It takes far more.

How toxic is ammonia, really?

In the context of trying to understand why so many people believe Seachem Prime was useful for them in an elevated ammonia situation, against the data in the link below about Prime potentially doing nothing to free ammonia in seawater, the question arises, why...

www.reef2reef.com

Food for thought I guess. Do you have sources for Prime ineffectiveness beyond the guy with the at-home tests? It seems like kind of a big deal if a major manufacturer makes a claim that is completely false (especially regarding chemistry vs “fish health” products). If I’m just wasting my time I guess that would be good to know.

Good news is that ammonia is coming down now in the 0.25-0.5 range, so I think I’m out of the woods. That’s a significant change even from 2 days ago.