Hand Feeding Lineatus

[btkrausen]

Hand Feeding Sick Lineatus

So I have a big colorful male Lineatus right now, and he's suffering from a swimming bladder problem. He can't keep himself upright, and just gets blown around the tank. I have since put him in my acclimation box to keep an eye on him, and he's been having this problem for over a week now.

The last few days, he hasn't been eating, even though I dump some mysis right in his box. So tonight, I tried again....nothing.

Solution? I reached in there and held him, turning him upright, and putting his mouth to some mysis, and he starting eating them. I got him to eat probably 6-7 mysis shirmp. I was pretty happy he ate.

Do you think that if I keep feeding him like this it'll up his chances of being able to swim again? Do you think that a PraziPro treatment would do anything for him?

 

[secretreefer]

i would drain/squeeze the liquid out of the frozen mysis, put the "squeezed" mysis in a chinese teacup, add 10 drops garlic extreme/ 6 drops of selcon and let the mysis soak it up. then feed that to your lineatus. that's always worked on my fish when they haven't looked so "well" .

 

[btkrausen]

I did soak this mysis in garlic extract that I had. I am planning to give him a PraziPro treatment in a hospital tank, as I figured it can't hurt. The HOB filter that I'll use on the hospital tank should be here tomorrow.

 

[secretreefer]

+1 cool. if anything prazi should help. my buddies who dive for fish always say heal the insides first!

 

[btkrausen]

I'm probably going to get him to eat the next few days first before I try the PraziPro, just to make sure he's in the best shape he can be in to start it. The hospital tank is a 20H, will have its own heater and a Aquaclear 70 on it. Probably also put a some PVC pieces in there. I also have a new Ammonia kit, plus an Ammonia Alert for the tank. I'll be keeping extra RO water on hand in case I need to change it out to keep it clean.

 

[96gts]

Sorry to hear about your lineatus. I have lost lineatus and a few rhomboids to swim bladder problems, I never had any luck with any remedies I tried. Good luck and let us know how he's doing.

 

[btkrausen]

I'm not even sure it'll work, or even help, but since he's still holding on and fighting, I want to try everything I can to give him a chance. I'm really interested to see if he'll eat again tonight like he did last night. If so, that'll give me more confidence that he's fighting.

 

[subielover]

I have never had a fish recover that had similar problems, I do wish you luck though.

 

[Captain Nemo]

Good luck with this BTK, let us know how he does. Pulling for you and him!

 

[Anthony Calfo]

there are more than a few very different reasons why fish suffer swim bladder problems. Fortunately, the solutions generally do not conflict with each other and you realyl should try multiples because you dont have much time before it likely gets ugly.

The Prazi recommendation is good, safe and recommended, but the least likely to be the problem. Intestinal "worms" would be piercing organ walls and linings if they were the cause of buoyancy problems and at that point the fish is almost certainly beyond saving. Really uncommon too.

A bacterial infection unrelated to injury (collection or hypersaturation...more below) is somewhat more common, slower to kill or be cured. Manageable. Broad spectrum antibiotics are the call. You dont need a QT tank although its ideal in most cases including here. Not needed though because most antibiotics are only stable (read: effective) for 6 hours or less in water. Thus, a temperature stable long bath (fish in a bucket) is acceptable for 3-5 doses every other day...though we can argue that you should still use the qt rather than cach the fish every day for the bath unless you are VERY good at catching fish low stress. A nitrofurazone-furazolidone mixed drug is the best bet for hobby meds. A Baytril injection is far better if you can get a local vet to sell you a portion and some syringes (see the thread recently on Blue Spot jawfish on this or we can chat more about how to do injections if needed)

On the topic of injections, B12 in the water or eve one shot to the fishes tail does wonders for vigor and appetite.

As for the cause...if the fish is very new, collection damage or stress tripped a bacterial infection. In fishes that are established (for future readers especially), note that you can induce buoyancy problems by a very common mistake in husbandry: pinhole leaks in your plumbing (aspirating super fine bubbles in to the tank via a strong water pump) or when you do a fast, flawed temperature adjustment of new evap or salted water by pouring hot tap water into cold standing water (fresh or salt). This can have the opposite effect of supersaturation, driving off oxygen in the bucket water rapidly instead and continuing the reaction in the tank if that water is mixed in quickly. Oxygen levels can temporarily (but long enough to stress or kill fishes) go screwy. Nitrogen embolism like symptoms in the former case, and hypoxia in the latter. Either way, oxygen can form bubble and be trapped in the fishes' body going our or coming in (again depending on which way you shift saturation in the tank).

Lancing the swim bladder really should not be an option in any but the most extreme cases. It's usually not air in the body causing the problem (unless it was a freshly collected fish brought up too quickly...but we are not talking about fishes on a boat).

Focus on strong and fast antibiotics, add the Prazi to cover secondary concerns. Really consider B12 at least in the food and water if not an injection. And if you are brave (and especially with larger or valuable fishes) make the effort to get Baytril from the vet.

best of luck, my friend.

 

[Anthony Calfo]

I'm sorry...what I meant to say in summary above is that the most likely cause of swim bladder problems in aquarium fishes more than a couple days removed from decompression is simply a run of the mill bacterial infection. Stress and/or water quality induced. Treat it as such with antibiotics and improved water quality as the focus.

 

[sportzfish]

there are more than a few very different reasons why fish suffer swim bladder problems. Fortunately, the solutions generally do not conflict with each other and you realyl should try multiples because you dont have much time before it likely gets ugly.

The Prazi recommendation is good, safe and recommended, but the least likely to be the problem. Intestinal "worms" would be piercing organ walls and linings if they were the cause of buoyancy problems and at that point the fish is almost certainly beyond saving. Really uncommon too.

A bacterial infection unrelated to injury (collection or hypersaturation...more below) is somewhat more common, slower to kill or be cured. Manageable. Broad spectrum antibiotics are the call. You dont need a QT tank although its ideal in most cases including here. Not needed though because most antibiotics are only stable (read: effective) for 6 hours or less in water. Thus, a temperature stable long bath (fish in a bucket) is acceptable for 3-5 doses every other day...though we can argue that you should still use the qt rather than cach the fish every day for the bath unless you are VERY good at catching fish low stress. A nitrofurazone-furazolidone mixed drug is the best bet for hobby meds. A Baytril injection is far better if you can get a local vet to sell you a portion and some syringes (see the thread recently on Blue Spot jawfish on this or we can chat more about how to do injections if needed)

On the topic of injections, B12 in the water or eve one shot to the fishes tail does wonders for vigor and appetite.

As for the cause...if the fish is very new, collection damage or stress tripped a bacterial infection. In fishes that are established (for future readers especially), note that you can induce buoyancy problems by a very common mistake in husbandry: pinhole leaks in your plumbing (aspirating super fine bubbles in to the tank via a strong water pump) or when you do a fast, flawed temperature adjustment of new evap or salted water by pouring hot tap water into cold standing water (fresh or salt). This can have the opposite effect of supersaturation, driving off oxygen in the bucket water rapidly instead and continuing the reaction in the tank if that water is mixed in quickly. Oxygen levels can temporarily (but long enough to stress or kill fishes) go screwy. Nitrogen embolism like symptoms in the former case, and hypoxia in the latter. Either way, oxygen can form bubble and be trapped in the fishes' body going our or coming in (again depending on which way you shift saturation in the tank).

Lancing the swim bladder really should not be an option in any but the most extreme cases. It's usually not air in the body causing the problem (unless it was a freshly collected fish brought up too quickly...but we are not talking about fishes on a boat).

Focus on strong and fast antibiotics, add the Prazi to cover secondary concerns. Really consider B12 at least in the food and water if not an injection. And if you are brave (and especially with larger or valuable fishes) make the effort to get Baytril from the vet.

best of luck, my friend.

Great insight!!!

 

[btkrausen]

I'm sorry...what I meant to say in summary above is that the most likely cause of swim bladder problems in aquarium fishes more than a couple days removed from decompression is simply a run of the mill bacterial infection. Stress and/or water quality induced. Treat it as such with antibiotics and improved water quality as the focus.

Thanks a bunch Anthony. Are there any antibiotics that I could easily purchase without a prescription? Or would I need to talk to the vet? In not trying to promote certain products, could you let me know which products I should try? He seems like he's holding on as I saw him looking at me this morning on my way out to work.

If its something I can order from say...Premium Aquatics, I can get it the next day since I'm only 2 hours from them.

 

[Anthony Calfo]

no problem at all, my friend. And The folks at Premium are really quite excellent too. They are one of the few big/old school etailers that has stood the test of time. Honest business.

For fishes that are still feeding, opt for this to get antibiotics into them:
SER-07480 Premium Aquatics - SER-07480 Aquarium Supplies

For a prazi source:
SER-02190 Premium Aquatics - SER-02190 Aquarium Supplies

But its still good to give them a bath with furans. In KY, can you make it to Sandy's in Louisville? Or maybe call them and get them to drop a Furan med in the mail for you? Priority postage from USPS probably will get to you in 1-2 days too:
Sandy's Pet Shop - Directions

Post here if you opt for meds and want a second opinion, but basically just ask the sales help to find a medicine that has furazolidone AND nitrofurazone in it. Having antibiotics in the feed and the water will elp immensely.

 

[btkrausen]

no problem at all, my friend. And The folks at Premium are really quite excellent too. They are one of the few big/old school etailers that has stood the test of time. Honest business.

For fishes that are still feeding, opt for this to get antibiotics into them:
SER-07480 Premium Aquatics - SER-07480 Aquarium Supplies

For a prazi source:
SER-02190 Premium Aquatics - SER-02190 Aquarium Supplies

But its still good to give them a bath with furans. In KY, can you make it to Sandy's in Louisville? Or maybe call them and get them to drop a Furan med in the mail for you? Priority postage from USPS probably will get to you in 1-2 days too:
Sandy's Pet Shop - Directions

Post here if you opt for meds and want a second opinion, but basically just ask the sales help to find a medicine that has furazolidone AND nitrofurazone in it. Having antibiotics in the feed and the water will elp immensely.

Wow, thanks Anthony. I can easily make it to Sandys, go there all the time. I will also try GreenTree Pet Center, which is close to work. I live just south of Louisville, but work north of Louisville in Southern Indiana

My fish is eating mysis, but I haven't seen him eat pellets for a few days. I could try the same thing that I did last night though, hand hold him and get him to eat. I'll try to pick up some of that food today. As for Prazi, I actually just got some of the PraziPro in yesterday, along with Culpramine - which I won't use for this particular fish right now. Will the PraziPro be the same thing as what you linked above?

And lastly, thanks so much for helping me through this.

 

[Anthony Calfo]

back off on the copper meds, my friend. It has nothing to do with what ails your fish and its likely to suppress appetite.

The B12 however my spur the appetite to incline the fish to eat pellets again.

If Bruce is around At Sandy's, do tell him I said hi, please. Its been years since I visited. Always love that ole shop though. The reef with the diamond plate stand made me chuckle. Sensible though!

Such typical LFSs always have furan meds for fresh and saltwater ("Jungle "Fungus Eliminator" might still be in stock, for example). Thats currently the most effective broad spectrum over the shelf med you can get. More things will respond to that than other options. Only with specific ailments might you stray from it to try others (Kanamycin, etc)

If you strike out on injectable B12, please hit the local grocery or pharmacy and get B-complex tablets or capsules. No worries, its water soluble and cant be overdosed in your tank. Open a capsule or crush a tablet and dissolve it in some aquarium water once or twice daily. Its actually a good habit in general (better to soak the food though as you might imagine but hold off on doing that while the fish is picky on feeds)

 

[btkrausen]

I wasn't planning to use copper on this guy, just for future quarantine purposes. I went to Greentree at lunch, and got some Amoxicillin capsules and Cephalexin capsules. They also had Penicillin, but not in the smaller containers, so I didn't get it. Should these be ok to use in conjunction, or one at a time? I assume its safe to put in the antibiotics and Prazi at the same time...slowly of course?

As for Sandys, Bruce is a great guy. He actually let me pick out a free ORA frag for fixing his printer in the office upstairs one day, haha. And you definitely can't beat the diamond plate stand for that tank in there.

 

[Anthony Calfo]

Amoxicillin is only moderate spectrum. Not very strong at that.

Cefalexin is a modern alternative to pennicillin, and pennicillin is gram positive (not many marine bacteria here) and staggeringly ineffectual.

You need strong broad spectrum medication, my friend. The above would be for mild bacterial or fungal infections.

getthe medicated food, use the prazi and then wait for Furan based drugs to put in the water. Overlapping 1-3 treatments is one thing...but throwing everything but the sink at the fish and still not using Baytril or Furans will likely just make the fish worse.

 

[btkrausen]

Anthony, I talked to Bruce on the phone..told him you said hello

Bruce said that he doesn't have the food, but does have Seachem Focus in stock. Should that be suffient? The description is below and the active ingredient is polymer bound nitrofurantoin. He also mentioned he had something with both nitrofurantoin and furazolidone , but I forget what it was. He said it was a tablet, where focus is a powder.

"Focus™ is an antibacterial polymer for internal infections of fish. It may be used alone or mixed with other medications to make them palatable to fish and greatly reduce the loss of medication to the water through diffusion. For use in freshwater or marine aquaria."

 

[Anthony Calfo]

I haven't tried Focus yet, but have used and prefer many Seachem products including other meds (metronidazole, etc). Great company. I'd be inclined to try it.
if you can afford the other mixed furan med, do get them both.