Going DEEP - The deep sea (stylasterid) concept tank experiment

[Gaufl]

Tomorrow is also an exciting day as we are expecting 34°C here, so I will be testing out the chiller!

 

[geologeek]

Nice going, looks like it is coming along.

What makes you say the rock is non calcareous? Looks like it's made up of the calcified remains of some critters to me.....

 

[Gaufl]

Nice going, looks like it is coming along.

What makes you say the rock is non calcareous? Looks like it's made up of the calcified remains of some critters to me.....

The rock is maricultured rock. It looks like they dropped lava rock or sth similar in the ocean and its been colonized and calcified later on. If you break the rock, you can tell that the base is not calcareous.

Greetings!

 

[taricha]

What's your best guess / info as to the food type requirement?
Or are you just hoping live phyto will work directly or indirectly?

 

[Gaufl]

What's your best guess / info as to the food type requirement?
Or are you just hoping live phyto will work directly or indirectly?

Good question. I'm still not sure about the feeding plan for this system. For now, I would like to try the following:
- live phyto (mix of different species)
- live zooplankton (mix of rotifers and different copepod species)
- marine snow (for the deep sea vibe )

Greetings,
Flo

 

[taricha]

Good question. I'm still not sure about the feeding plan for this system. For now, I would like to try the following:
- live phyto (mix of different species)
- live zooplankton (mix of rotifers and different copepod species)
- marine snow (for the deep sea vibe )

Greetings,
Flo

Thanks.
I ask because there's a few people around here that are very good at tracking down research for things like this - and even when the answer is pretty much unknown, there's usually enough info to give some really good guesses or rule out other things to save time.
@ISpeakForTheSeas @livinlifeinBKK anybody else ever run across feeding info for stylasterid hydrocorals?

All I found was a little bit from Aquarium of the Pacific in 2001
http://drumandcroaker.org/pdf/2001.pdf#page=30

"Nonphotosynthetic soft corals (e.g., family Nephtheidae) remain to be a challenge for aquarists.
At the Aquarium of the Pacific, we have discovered some of the basics and are always striving to learn
the intricacies of maintaining these species. Here are some of the lessons we have learned:
1. Water flow is essential. It appears that nonphotosynthetic soft coral species are more sensitive to
particular types of flow than other soft and stony corals, much like the crinoids we maintain. Most
species seem to prefer a moderate to strong, diffuse, laminar flow.
2. Food is another critical component in that both the proper size and composition is important. We
use a variety of phytoplankton including Chlorella sp., Spirulina sp., Isochrysis sp., and
Nanochloropsis sp. To this, we add rotifers and supplemented baby brine shrimp (Artemia sp.). We
then drip approximately 1 liter of “soup” per 100 gallons into each system very slowly over the course
of the night.
3. Nonphotosynthetic soft corals do not seem to need specific levels of lower light. It appears
however, that they prefer shaded areas.

The hydrozoan, Distichopora sp. is also a challenging species. Unlike nonphotosynthetic soft
corals, these animals unquestionably require low light levels. If left in even moderate light, fouling
organisms quickly adhere to their delicate tissues and result in mortality. Distichopora sp. prefers a
water flow and feeding regime similar to nonphotosynthetic soft corals."

 

[Gaufl]

Thanks.
I ask because there's a few people around here that are very good at tracking down research for things like this - and even when the answer is pretty much unknown, there's usually enough info to give some really good guesses or rule out other things to save time.
@ISpeakForTheSeas @livinlifeinBKK anybody else ever run across feeding info for stylasterid hydrocorals?

All I found was a little bit from Aquarium of the Pacific in 2001
http://drumandcroaker.org/pdf/2001.pdf#page=30

"Nonphotosynthetic soft corals (e.g., family Nephtheidae) remain to be a challenge for aquarists.
At the Aquarium of the Pacific, we have discovered some of the basics and are always striving to learn
the intricacies of maintaining these species. Here are some of the lessons we have learned:
1. Water flow is essential. It appears that nonphotosynthetic soft coral species are more sensitive to
particular types of flow than other soft and stony corals, much like the crinoids we maintain. Most
species seem to prefer a moderate to strong, diffuse, laminar flow.
2. Food is another critical component in that both the proper size and composition is important. We
use a variety of phytoplankton including Chlorella sp., Spirulina sp., Isochrysis sp., and
Nanochloropsis sp. To this, we add rotifers and supplemented baby brine shrimp (Artemia sp.). We
then drip approximately 1 liter of “soup” per 100 gallons into each system very slowly over the course
of the night.
3. Nonphotosynthetic soft corals do not seem to need specific levels of lower light. It appears
however, that they prefer shaded areas.

The hydrozoan, Distichopora sp. is also a challenging species. Unlike nonphotosynthetic soft
corals, these animals unquestionably require low light levels. If left in even moderate light, fouling
organisms quickly adhere to their delicate tissues and result in mortality. Distichopora sp. prefers a
water flow and feeding regime similar to nonphotosynthetic soft corals."

Thanks a lot for this

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

Thanks.
I ask because there's a few people around here that are very good at tracking down research for things like this - and even when the answer is pretty much unknown, there's usually enough info to give some really good guesses or rule out other things to save time.
@ISpeakForTheSeas @livinlifeinBKK anybody else ever run across feeding info for stylasterid hydrocorals?

All I found was a little bit from Aquarium of the Pacific in 2001
http://drumandcroaker.org/pdf/2001.pdf#page=30

"Nonphotosynthetic soft corals (e.g., family Nephtheidae) remain to be a challenge for aquarists.
At the Aquarium of the Pacific, we have discovered some of the basics and are always striving to learn
the intricacies of maintaining these species. Here are some of the lessons we have learned:
1. Water flow is essential. It appears that nonphotosynthetic soft coral species are more sensitive to
particular types of flow than other soft and stony corals, much like the crinoids we maintain. Most
species seem to prefer a moderate to strong, diffuse, laminar flow.
2. Food is another critical component in that both the proper size and composition is important. We
use a variety of phytoplankton including Chlorella sp., Spirulina sp., Isochrysis sp., and
Nanochloropsis sp. To this, we add rotifers and supplemented baby brine shrimp (Artemia sp.). We
then drip approximately 1 liter of “soup” per 100 gallons into each system very slowly over the course
of the night.
3. Nonphotosynthetic soft corals do not seem to need specific levels of lower light. It appears
however, that they prefer shaded areas.

The hydrozoan, Distichopora sp. is also a challenging species. Unlike nonphotosynthetic soft
corals, these animals unquestionably require low light levels. If left in even moderate light, fouling
organisms quickly adhere to their delicate tissues and result in mortality. Distichopora sp. prefers a
water flow and feeding regime similar to nonphotosynthetic soft corals."

I'm on it!!

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

Ok, so from what I've found so far (and I've just began the search) as @taricha mentioned, these corals are reliant upon strong upwelling currents from to supply them with organic matter which they can capture and use for their life processes Therefore strong laminar flow appears to be essential to provide them with particulate matter and dissolved organic matter.
From a publication by Goldberg 2018:

"Cold and deepwater corals rely on carbon input from the ocean surface. Foodsources may include zooplankton, bacteria, POM, and DOM (Dodds et al. 2009;Mueller et al. 2014a; Orejas et al. 2016) from shallow-water phytoplankton, zoo-plankton feeding, and fecal production as well as viral-mediated lysis of bacteria andphytoplankton (Fig. 18.5). Particulate organic matter is also derived from shallowwater, especially “marine snow,” primarily composed of sinking polymeric exudatescolonized by bacteria, as well as by heterotrophic flagellates and zooplanktonic fecalpellets (Waite et al. 2000; Turner 2015)."
(PDF) Coral Food, Feeding, Nutrition, and Secretion: A Review. Available from: https://www.researchgate.net/public...Food_Feeding_Nutrition_and_Secretion_A_Review [accessed Jul 09 2023].

In regards to supplying nutrients, I'd suggest a variety or different sized particulate matter since preferred prey size seems to be dependent upon species from what I've reviewed this far. They seem to have extremely long lifespans so I'd ASSUME (not 100% sure) from what I've read that you would have more time to observe signs of ill nutrition and correct them before they die in comparison to many other corals.

I apologize if I overlooked it, but what temperature do you plan to maintain the tank at? I ask since metabolism (as well as their nutritional requirements which they've adapted to survive) is dependent upon temperature and dramatically changing this variable could shift their needs for food.

I can leave a few references that may be useful to you but beyond uptake of DOM and POM (primarily to meet nitrogen and carbon requirements) I haven't come across too much specific information in the past but I'll start looking again to help out someone trying to start up a tank with a very unique idea! I absolutely love when people push against what is mainstream and believed to be possible or impossible by the majority!

 

[Gaufl]

Ok, so from what I've found so far (and I've just began the search) as @taricha mentioned, these corals are reliant upon strong upwelling currents from to supply them with organic matter which they can capture and use for their life processes Therefore strong laminar flow appears to be essential to provide them with particulate matter and dissolved organic matter.
From a publication by Goldberg 2018:

"Cold and deepwater corals rely on carbon input from the ocean surface. Foodsources may include zooplankton, bacteria, POM, and DOM (Dodds et al. 2009;Mueller et al. 2014a; Orejas et al. 2016) from shallow-water phytoplankton, zoo-plankton feeding, and fecal production as well as viral-mediated lysis of bacteria andphytoplankton (Fig. 18.5). Particulate organic matter is also derived from shallowwater, especially “marine snow,” primarily composed of sinking polymeric exudatescolonized by bacteria, as well as by heterotrophic flagellates and zooplanktonic fecalpellets (Waite et al. 2000; Turner 2015)."
(PDF) Coral Food, Feeding, Nutrition, and Secretion: A Review. Available from: https://www.researchgate.net/public...Food_Feeding_Nutrition_and_Secretion_A_Review [accessed Jul 09 2023].

In regards to supplying nutrients, I'd suggest a variety or different sized particulate matter since preferred prey size seems to be dependent upon species from what I've reviewed this far. They seem to have extremely long lifespans so I'd ASSUME (not 100% sure) from what I've read that you would have more time to observe signs of ill nutrition and correct them before they die in comparison to many other corals.

I apologize if I overlooked it, but what temperature do you plan to maintain the tank at? I ask since metabolism (as well as their nutritional requirements which they've adapted to survive) is dependent upon temperature and dramatically changing this variable could shift their needs for food.

I can leave a few references that may be useful to you but beyond uptake of DOM and POM (primarily to meet nitrogen and carbon requirements) I haven't come across too much specific information in the past but I'll start looking again to help out someone trying to start up a tank with a very unique idea! I absolutely love when people push against what is mainstream and believed to be possible or impossible by the majority!

Wow, thank you so much. I will look into that paper a bit more. I might add some bacterioplankton to the mix then. I will have to check out some sources for that. That being said, I do work in a microbiology lab so maybe I could cultivate some myself?

As far as temperature goes, I plan on keeping the tank at around 20°C (max 25°C) in the summer, about 17-18 °C in the winter months.

Its super hot here today, so my temp-experiment is running as we speak.

Greetings and thanks for your help everyone!

Flo

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

Wow, thank you so much. I will look into that paper a bit more. I might add some bacterioplankton to the mix then. I will have to check out some sources for that. That being said, I do work in a microbiology lab so maybe I could cultivate some myself?

As far as temperature goes, I plan on keeping the tank at around 20°C (max 25°C) in the summer, about 17-18 °C in the winter months.

Its super hot here today, so my temp-experiment is running as we speak.

Greetings and thanks for your help everyone!

Flo

No problem! It's probably not known which bacteria they feed on specifically and even if it is known, many marine bacteria can't currently be cultivated in lab conditions. One product which may be of use though is PNS Probio. Pseudoremonas paulstris...I may have misspelled the scientific name because I just thought of it off the top of my head...it's a PNS bacteria which is native to many marine habitats so it may be something to try or give you an idea for a better strain to cultivate

 

[Gaufl]

No problem! It's probably not known which bacteria they feed on specifically and even if it is known, many marine bacteria can't currently be cultivated in lab conditions. One product which may be of use though is PNS Probio. Pseudoremonas paulstris...I may have misspelled the scientific name because I just thought of it off the top of my head...it's a PNS bacteria which is native to many marine habitats so it may be something to try or give you an idea for a better strain to cultivate

Yes! Sadly, the PNS stuff is not available here in Germany. I will look around for some options.

 

[Gaufl]

One thing I like to do is change my water using probiotic reef salts. Right after mixing, the water is a bit cloudy. After the water change, you will have a mini "bacterial bloom" (nothing to worry about). That could be a good source of bacterioplankton

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

Yes! Sadly, the PNS stuff is not available here in Germany. I will look around for some options.

I've tried to figure out what species of "purple bacteria" Tropic Marin Nitribiotic contains bit couldn't get a clear answer even after contacting the representative of the company.

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

It will definitely help with increasing population density but not diversity. Many of the deep water species are likely different than those found in the shallows (this is purely my opinion and not based on anything).

One thing I like to do is change my water using probiotic reef salts. Right after mixing, the water is a bit cloudy. After the water change, you will have a mini "bacterial bloom" (nothing to worry about). That could be a good source of bacterioplankton

 

[Gaufl]

Yeah, I might need to dose different products using different strains to have the best result. Also, I dont know the depth my specimens have been collected but it must be in conventional diving depths.

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

I

Yeah, I might need to dose different products using different strains to have the best result. Also, I dont know the depth my specimens have been collected but it must be in conventional diving depths.

Interestingly, some species are moving more inland so it's possible they are present at diving depths but thrive at deeper depths.

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

@Gaufl sent you a DM about your tank...

 

[Kenneth Wingerter]

Cool project! I owned a small business in Oregon around 2007 collecting (yes, licensed) coldwater inverts for the aquarium hobby. I overestimated how interested people would be in that stuff, so it only lasted a couple of years haha. But I did have opportunity to collect, frag and even grow (slightly) a really pretty encrusting stylasterid species (Stylantheca porphyra, shown here). Mine did fine with phytoplankton (can't recall which species) and L-type rotifers. And LOTS of water flow.

I'm not sure about your shipping availability, but you might be able to get PNS ProBio from France or Norway?

Hydrospace LLC - PNS PROBIO ¦ bubblepets

Hydrospace LLC - PNS PROBIO: Nourriture vivante pour les coraux, riche en protéines, caroténoïdes et vitamines.PNS ProBio élimine l'ammoniac, les nitrites et les nitrates, consomme des déchets organiques, agit comme un puissant probiotique

www.bubblepets.fr

Tropestua

tropestua.no

Wishing you much success!

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

Hwy! I mentioned PNS Probio!!

Cool project! I owned a small business in Oregon around 2007 collecting (yes, licensed) coldwater inverts for the aquarium hobby. I overestimated how interested people would be in that stuff, so it only lasted a couple of years haha. But I did have opportunity to collect, frag and even grow (slightly) a really pretty encrusting stylasterid species (Stylantheca porphyra, shown here). Mine did fine with phytoplankton (can't recall which species) and L-type rotifers. And LOTS of water flow.

I'm not sure about your shipping availability, but you might be able to get PNS ProBio from France or Norway?

Hydrospace LLC - PNS PROBIO ¦ bubblepets

Hydrospace LLC - PNS PROBIO: Nourriture vivante pour les coraux, riche en protéines, caroténoïdes et vitamines.PNS ProBio élimine l'ammoniac, les nitrites et les nitrates, consomme des déchets organiques, agit comme un puissant probiotique

www.bubblepets.fr

Tropestua

tropestua.no

Wishing you much success!