Frogfish long-term success

[ISpeakForTheSeas]

Ive also been contemplating a dwarf lion probably a fuzzy because they seem to be more successful. But if I were to go with a lion I'd want to try tank mates like maroon clowns, halichoeres wrasse, and goby but I'm not a fan of the "he might eat it he might not"

Yeah, they have much better success rates - generally, the larger the fish and the less narrow it is, the less likely it is to be eaten.

If the fish is over half the size of the lion and won't fit in its mouth, then it's probably safe, but there's some risk still if both fish are growing.

 

[twentyleagues]

One of the biggest hurdles is thiaminase which is found in a lot of fresh and some saltwater fish. It blocks absorption and destroys b vitamins. Krill and fresh water silversides are high in this enzyme. Goldfish, rosyreds, both common live feeders are also high in it. Supposedly guppies and mollies are not and these can be converted to full saltwater and fed saltwater diets to gut load them before feeding. This is probably the easiest way to keep frogfish healthy longest.

 

[Draven]

One of the biggest hurdles is thiaminase which is found in a lot of fresh and some saltwater fish. It blocks absorption and destroys b vitamins. Krill and fresh water silversides are high in this enzyme. Goldfish, rosyreds, both common live feeders are also high in it. Supposedly guppies and mollies are not and these can be converted to full saltwater and fed saltwater diets to gut load them before feeding. This is probably the easiest way to keep frogfish healthy longest.

Yeah I've read all about the dreaded thiaminase or however it's spelt. It seems to be in absolutely everything. But obviously there more of it in certain things. to my understanding vitamin b1 is supposed to counter act the thiaminase so I was thinking maybe just twice or three times a month give the frogfish salmon soaked in vitamin b1

 

[ISpeakForTheSeas]

Yeah I've read all about the dreaded thiaminase or however it's spelt. It seems to be in absolutely everything. But obviously there more of it in certain things. to my understanding vitamin b1 is supposed to counter act the thiaminase so I was thinking maybe just twice or three times a month give the frogfish salmon soaked in vitamin b1

Supplementing Vitamin B1 and Vitamin E is a good idea - for the thiaminase, Jay Hemdal has a good list of species that are high in it and species that are low in it (salmon and mackerel would be my first and second choices at the moment):

Feeding whole fish to predators can be an issue depending on the species of fish you are feeding them. Some types of food fish are high in thiaminase, which breaks down vitamin B1. Almost all seafoods are also low in vitamin E.

The fish you have should also be fed shrimp, squid and perhaps clams cut into the correct size.

There is a company in the US that makes a vitamin paste that supplements both of these, but they sell mostly to public aquariums and zoos:

ThiaminE Paste Cartridge

ThiaminE Paste is a blend of vitamins for marine mammals, birds and other aquatic species whose diet consists mainly of raw fish. This supplement contains no vitamin A and should be fed with whole fish containing livers, which are a good source of vitamin A. The paste format makes it easy to mix...

mazuri.com

Here is a write up I did on thiaminase:

Thiaminase​

Thiaminase is an enzyme that metabolizes or breaks down thiamine (vitamin B1). In high enough concentrations in food, thiaminase will create thiamin deficient diets in fish. This is a common, yet serious problem with predatory fish that are fed feeder goldfish, as goldfish are very high in thiaminase. Lionfish, piranha and oscars cichlids were commonly fed all-goldfish diets by home aquarists. Health issues in their fish were then very common; fatty liver disease in lionfish, pica in piranha (where they eat each other to try to get more thiamin) and HLLE in oscars. Fresh seafoods known to be high in thiaminase can be supplemented with thiamin. Conversely, aquarists can avoid feeding fresh seafoods known to be high in thiaminase.



The actual impact of thiaminase on a fish’s diet depends on three factors:
What proportion of thiaminase-containing food is fed to the fish
What the concentration of thiaminase is in the food item
How much vitamin B1 is already present in the food

The following is a partial list of seafoods that contain and don’t contain thiaminase:

Species high in thiaminase
Anchovy (Engraulis sp.)
Atlantic herring (Clupea harengus)
Capelin (Mallotus villosus)
Carp (Cyprinus carpio)
Clams (family Veneridae)
Goldfish (Carassius auratus)
Lobster (Homarus americanus)
Menhaden (Brevoortia spp.)
Minnows (Cyprinids)
Mussels (Mytilus spp.)
Rainbow smelt (Osmerus mordax)
Sardine (Harengula spp.)
Scallops (Pecten spp.)
Shrimp and prawns (various species)
Skipjack tuna (Katsuwonus pelamis)
White bass (Morone chrysops)
Yellowfin tuna (Neothunnus macropterus)


Species lower in thiaminase
Atlantic cod (Gadus morhua)
Atlantic hake (Merluccius bilinearis)
Atlantic halibut (Hippoglossus hippoglossus)
Atlantic mackerel (Scomber scombrus)
Atlantic salmon (Salmo salar)
Brown trout (Salmo trutta)
Catfish (Ictalurus and related spp)
Cisco (Coregonus spp.)
Coho salmon (Oncorhynchus kisutch)
Flounder / sole (Pleuronectes and related spp.)
Haddock (Melanogrammus aeglefinus)
Hake (Urophycis spp)
Lake trout (Salvelinus namaycush)
Mullet (Mugilidae spp)
Poecilids (Guppies, platies, mollies)
Pollock/Pollack (Pollachius spp.)
Rainbow trout (Oncorhynchus mykiss)
Tilapia (Oreochromis spp)
Worms (Lumbricus spp)


Silversides confusion – many aquarists feed frozen “silversides” to their aquarium animals. True silversides (Atherinids) are low in thiaminase. Many fish food manufacturers use other fish species and call them “silversides”. Some of those fish are actually smelts or sardines and are high in thiaminase. Of five products on the market that were looked at, only one contained actual silversides (Rowlett, 2017). True silversides will have two dorsal fins (the first one may lie close to the body). The smelts have an adipose fin and a single dorsal fin (like trout do).


Jay

 

[Draven]

Supplementing Vitamin B1 and Vitamin E is a good idea - for the thiaminase, Jay Hemdal has a good list of species that are high in it and species that are low in it (salmon and mackerel would be my first and second choices at the moment):

Unfortunately theres also the likely possiblity that the frogfish won't eat that stuff. So if I get one there's also some luck to it

 

[ISpeakForTheSeas]

Unfortunately theres also the likely possiblity that the frogfish won't eat that stuff. So if I get one there's also some luck to it

Yeah - the best I can offer for getting it to eat prepared foods is the quote below:

Converting piscivores to feed on non-living foods​

One basic principle of life in the sea is that big fish often eat little fish. Many carnivorous fish feed exclusively on smaller fish and are termed obligate piscivores. When brought into captivity, this feeding behavior can become a liability, as small, living marine fish are too expensive to feed to larger fish on a regular basis. When one of these fish is collected and brought into captivity, it may not have fed normally for up to a month prior to that time. The first consideration is of course to get the animal feeding as usual. This often entails offering the piscivore some small live fish, which are usually accepted with much gusto. Lionfish, anglerfish, trumpetfish and many others will accept live fish quite readily from the first day they are placed into an aquarium. The question is then; can this feeding regimen be sustained? For aquarists near the ocean, this may not be a problem as they can usually collect some manner of small live fish to feed their animals. Inland aquarists have more of a problem. Buying damselfish, marine killifish or other species becomes too expensive. Mollies and Gambusia can be adapted to living in seawater and then be used as a live food source. Live feeder goldfish and guppies may be accepted, but have serious nutritional deficiencies when fed to marine fish for long periods (See thiaminase section above). If nothing else, using live fish as food is abhorrent to some aquarists, and is never really a convenient or cost-effective food source. The alternative then is to train the piscivorous fish to accept some type of non-living food. The following process has worked for every species of obligate piscivore, as long as the aquarist spends the time and effort required to allow the method to succeed:


1) The first step is to stabilize the new fish and get it to accept any live fish of appropriate size as a first meal (At the same time, general quarantine issues must be addressed). Do not allow the new fish to spend too much time at this stage. It is very common to have fish become “addicted” to one particular type of live food if it is used for too long of a time. As soon as the fish is routinely accepting live fish, and has become somewhat conditioned to associate your approach with an impending meal, it is time to try step two.

2) Using the same species of food fish that the animal is accustomed to, freeze some, then offer the animal a mixture of living, and thawed / dead fish. By chance, it will likely swallow some of the dead fish while searching out the live fish. If this fails, try impaling a live fish on a broom straw or 3/16” clear tubing and offer it to the fish that way. Once accepted, switch to impaling previously frozen fish and feed in the same manner.

3) Continue introducing more thawed whole fish to the animal’s diet each day until the animal is not being offered any live or fresh food. It may help to forcefully toss the dead fish into the aquarium so that their motion is more likely to elicit a feeding response.

4) Eventually, the predator should be feeding solely on thawed, whole fish tossed into the aquarium. At this point, use a knife and remove the head of each of the frozen fish, so that the predator then becomes accustomed to feeding on just the fish’s body. The reason for taking this step is that most piscivores clue in on their prey’s eyes as a means to make an effective capture. When the eyes of their food item are removed, this primary feeding cue is removed and they may not recognize the item as food. Once the piscivore has overcome this need, they are one step closer to being trained to feed on prepared food items.

5) The next step to take is to switch the fish to begin feeding on a different type of fish flesh such as smelt. To make this transition, use a sharp knife to cut a piece of smelt into a good facsimile of the headless fish that the animal has been used to feeding on. Drop these smelt pieces into the aquarium and they will usually be accepted with little problem.

6) At this stage, the predatory fish is usually willing to begin accepting almost any food item including prepared gelatin foods. Never allow the fish to “backslide”, avoid the temptation to give it a live fish as a treat from time to time. The fish may relapse; and you may find that you will have to start the training process all over again.

Jay

 

[twentyleagues]

The one I had most recently only lived for a year unfortunately. He took to eating silversides and krill right away but silversides and krill so issues. The silversides were hikari or sanfrancisco bay brand both supposedly saltwater varieties. He wouldnt touch them if I used any vitamin supplement and would actually pout for about a week after. He died about the time I finally started getting enough guppies to size from acclimating them to salt and had breeding. Mollies killed each other I have bred mollies in fresh water no problem but for some reason in salt they are jerks.

My first one years ago survived 3 years and ate just about anything I fed him.