Fresh SW parameters.....

[lazyreefer]

Using Reef Crystals salt I have recently started testing my fresh SW prior to WC using Salifert test kits. I was surprised to find my numbers considerably lower than the numbers stated on the box. Box claims 405 Ca and 1200 mag @ 1.023 salinity. Its a 200 gallon box with four individual bags, I basically mix fresh SW out of a single bag at a time which is dumped in a 5 gallon bucket but not mixed up or anything. I just dump it in the bucket and go from there.....

My numbers @ 1.025 are 350 Ca and 1080 Mag with KH at 9

I assume my refractometer is correct as it was calibrated with fluid and I have a second fracto that shows the same salinity levels. I assume the test is correct, at least I have been using the same one for many tests over the course of several months so at least it should be consistant.


The water is made up in a 32 gallon Brute trash can, heated to 78 degrees and mixed up with a Maxi Jet 1200 powerhead. I'm lazy, within a day or two of using up the water via a WC I mix up another batch with RO/DI water supply. Since I have multiple tanks on different WC schedules I usually use the water within a week of mixing it up.

24 hours after mixing up some SW the test showed numbers higher than stated on the box, as it should given I mix up with a higher salinty than .023

Six days later I'm seeing the lower numbers stated above, where is the Ca and Mag going within the course of a week ? oh:

I assume I can dose the fresh SW in the Brute per a calculator's instructions to match the higher numbers in my reef tank system, is there any need for waiting before I use the new and improved fresh saltwater ? oh:


I'm gonna try a bucket of Coralife which advertises higher Ca and Mag numbers, should I expect a similar drop in parameters ? oh:


btw.....There's no coral or anything in the trash can itself. :neutral:

 

[RBursek]

I bought 2 200 boxes last June, I am on the second box and getting 500 13 and 1400ish at 1.0260 after a day or 3 of mixing. Your numbers should not drop from just sitting for a few days unless it would precip out, do you mix it a bit before using it again?

 

[lazyreefer]

Hey Bob, yeah its mixing up the entire time via the Maxi Jet. I just used up what I had out of the Brute so its completely empty. I'll refill it overnight, add the salt tomorrow, and test it Monday - I'll retest it the following weekend when I'm scheduled for another WC.....might as well double check what I posted and see if maybe I'm making a mistake or something because I'm not really seeing any precipitation on the bottom of the Brute - there is some but nothing that jumps out at me as a possible reason for the drop in numbers. I'm gonna double check with a second test kit too.


While I got you on the hook..... I have an 8 gallon ATO reservoir that I want to use to add something positive to a reef tank, meaning straight RO/DI water is actually a negative addition due to it being basically inert and I'm dosing 2 part. I'm reluctant to completely fill it with limewater because my float switch mechanism is a cheap suction cup and the entire system is only 55 gallons. I'm afraid that an accident could result in the reservoir being dumped into the tank killing some fish. (That is an issue easily resolved)

However, a calculator tells me that to raise the Alk of 8 gallons from 5 dkh to 8 requires 70 something fluid ounces of saturated limewater or just over a half gallon. Are these calculators based on saltwater ?? And if so, what do they base the salinity level on....

If it doesn't matter if its salt, fresh, or distilled, why am I seeing such low Alk numbers in my ATO reservoir after the addition of an entire gallon of limewater to 7 gallons of straight up RO/DI ?? (almost twice the calculator's recommendation)

As to be expected the saturated limewater I'm using tests way up there for Alk and of course PH, I'm getting to the bottom of my 8 gallon ATO reservoir where I would expect a stronger concentration, and yet when I tested it today (some five days after the addition of limewater) the Alk has dropped to 3 dkh with the PH still over 12

Assuming test/tester error isn't the cause....what the heck is going on ???

 

[lazyreefer]

My numbers from a batch of RC made up yesterday and tested today were Alk 12, Ca 430, Mag 1260 tested with Salifert @ 1.026

Advertised numbers at that salinity were 455 Ca and 1345 Mag (they don't state Alk)

So once again I'm not seeing the numbers they promote. I'm gonna test again in 5-7 days and see if my numbers have dropped in the Brute while Maxi Jet runs 24/7 and temp @ 78 degrees. One bag left of RC before I try out Coralife salt....

 

[kevchem]

The latest numbers look acceptable to me - I'd expect box-to-box variation from the numbers they print. So you are now 5% low on Ca and 6% low on Mg - that seems like something you could say is natural variation in the product.

Kevin

 

[lazyreefer]

Hey Kevin, yeah the numbers the next day after mixing have been good, that wasn't the case with earlier batches. But the numbers are dropping considerably after 5-6 days mixing up in a 32 gallon Brute, I'll be testing it again here at the end of the week to double check I'm not the reason for the low numbers. (wouldn't be the first time)

 

[lazyreefer]

Forgot to give an update but on the 14th of March, some 5 days after my initial test which showed some decent enough numbers, the "freshly" made up of SW in my ~ 30 gallon Brute trash can had dropped considerably. Water was 1.024 and 78 degrees, tested with Salifert with the exception of Alk which was API

Alk was 9, Calcium had dropped to 360, and Mag was down to 1050

Why are the numbers dropping inside a Brute can with the heater, maxi jet, etc....after a few days ?? Has anyone else seen a similar drop, you would have to test like I did 24 hours after the addition of Reef Crystals salt, and follow that up with testing 5 days or so later. My Brute is very clean, has a tight fitting lid, and I use RO/DI with 0 TDS

 

[ddwbeagles]

I'm seeing similar threads on various boards. A couple of comments. There are a few things to remember here.
* 1st the manufacturer is using lab grade equipment to test which is far more accurate than our test kits
* 2nd, just like the nutritional labels on any food we buy, there is an allowed variation from stated claims. They post "avg specs" and all elements could swing a little from stated claims. There are SPEC (specification) ranges for each of the components/elements and allowable/tollerable variation from same.
* I think we all get that, but what concerns me with the numerous threads I'm seeing is the dropping percentages over time. That I can't explain, but nor do we know if the same thing would happen in the lab at the manufacturers site. Honestly, we don't know when they are testing it. I suspect before a batch/mix is packaged, the test is made there (i.e. fresh and hot off the press, so to speak). They too may have the same drop over time that you're experiencing. Anyway, I'm rambling now and will keep an eye out on this thread as well as the others to see if anyone stumbles on a more resilient mix/brand.

 

[lazyreefer]

RBursek asked me in another thread.....

Lazy,
your new WC salt mix with RC at what SG and how are you measuring that SG? You might need to calibrate what you use or get a second opion on a sample at the LFS or SW club if you have one.


As noted earlier in an earlier post I'm using two different refractometers. I'm mixing up my fresh SW to 1.025/26

I'm not seeing initial numbers exactly as advertised, which keep in mind is supposedly tested at 1.023

However, that's not my big concern, its this loss of Alk,Ca, and Mag over the course of a few days while the water mixes/heats in the Brute that I don't like. I'm having to dose my fresh SW to meet the parameters in my tank prior to a WC, and the parameters in my tank are less than the advertised number on the box. I'm going to Coralife next week and see if I get similar numbers with their mix.

 

[ddwbeagles]

Still watching closely as I'm in a similar boat and will be trying new salts here shortly. Will be interesting to see which one works better for you.

 

[lazyreefer]

I'll keep ya posted, I'll be using up the last of my RC this week and will try the Coralife next week. The issue of the numbers dropping is one thing, who knows it may do that for all brands of salt.

The issue of folks not knowing it does that is a whole 'nother thing imho. If I'm playing mad scientist dosing my tank water with the assumption that my "fresh" saltwater used for WCs is either the same or higher than my tank's parameters, if that assumption is wrong than how can I ever get my numbers stable. I guess I could stop doing water changes, but if I'm doing WCs than I got my numbers going up and down from the combination of dosing/water changes and that isn't very desirable.

I never hear much if anything at all about testing your freshly made SW, and then dosing it to meet the parameters of your tank - with the exception of PH, salinity, and tempature. I guess I'll need to be more diligent about testing my fresh SW.....its so hard to be lazy.

 

[Troylee]

i stick with coralife and prolly always will... the price is rite and the numbers are there....just be carefull with it because the calcium is high!!!550 it's actually not a bad idea to start using it now and cut it with what salt you got left...
as for why yours is depleting in a trashcan i have no idea unless it's just not mixed fully before you test it and the gas needs to be exchanged...
let me ask you this... how do you mix the water up, you said a maxijet do you have it just swirling around or facing upwards??? the proper way to mix salt water is having your ph facing upwards and breaking the water on top to let the gasses escape....might be why your readings are going crazy on ya.....fwiw..

 

[crewchef]

How are you mixing?

Not an expert by any means but have been dealing with same issue. Finally figured out it was my initial mixing procedure that was the problem. All the major elements were precipitating and causing lower readings after just a day or two.

With some good input from a couple different forums here's what I'm doing now w/ much better results.

Start by filling container with amount of water to be mixed. Using some type of stirring device (some use drill motor with hard plastic mixer blade) slowly poor salt in while stirring rapidly. Keep mixing as all salt is added and then keep mixing for another few minutes. Then add the power head, output pointed up towards surface of water. I don't put the heater in until close to water change time.

You may be doing all of this or something like it already but thought I would throw this out there. I was doing several things different than I am now and was having to dose freshly mixed water prior to WC. Now all is good, seeing much better levels even if I hold water for four or five days.

 

[lazyreefer]

I'll try the Maxijet facing upwards, I mean it makes sense. However, the idea that surface agitation in say a 24" long tank can create more gas exchange in a less agitated 48" long tank which obviously has twice the surface area for gas exchange to occur, is a bit harder pill to swallow.

Having said that, I've been having problems with a dead file fish and emerald crabs winding up dead a few days after being put into a 48" by 24" by 12" tall frag tank tied into my 120 display. I have considered lack of oxygen or CO2 buildup but have no way of measuring it at the moment.

The frag tank (about 50 gallons) has a Tunze 6025, a Koralia 1, and the return pump which is a Marineland 3000 with about a 4' head - along with a fan blowing across the water. The corals seem to be getting alot of movement and I'm evaporating 3-4 gallons a day out of this system - it doesn't appear that gas exchange would be a problem, but obviously I wouldn't be posting here if I had all the answers.

I'm mixing the box of Coralife that I purchased today with about 5-6 pounds of the RC I have left, it normally took about 8 pounds of RC salt to get 1.025 ~ out of a 32 gallon Brute. I'm gonna do a WC this weekend with it, and then mix up a batch with all Coralife. I'll leave the Maxi on its "feet" which causes the flow to swirl around like a whirlpool and test the parameters 24 hours after mixing and another 5-6 days later.

I'll do it again after using it up with the Maxi pointing upwards and see what happens. Being that I'm lazy I think I'll pass on the ol' eletric drill and a paddle approach for another day. I've done the air line in a bucket outdoors test where PH flies up in minutes, so I've seen firsthand that gas exchange is easily changed. I'm just not sure that inside my basement will have much effect since the lack of fresh air may be the cause of the problem in the first place.

 

[lazyreefer]

I should of posted that I let the Brute fill up with RO/DI and then I plug in the heater, plug in the Maxijet with no concern for its position, and add 3.5/4 pounds of salt. (That's all my measuring cup holds) I then either wait until much later in the day to add another 3-4 pounds, or do it the very next day. I then wait until the next day or later in day 2 to measure salinity with a refractometer and adjust - usually adding another 3/4 to 1 pound of salt.

I always have SW making up 'cause I never know when I will need it or if some other reefer in the neighborhood might need some in an emergency. I can't say I ever recall using it without at least 24 hours having passed after salt content was where I wanted it, and I always seem to use it up within 3-5 days and the whole process starts again. I have five tanks on three systems so I'm thinking about adding another Brute or a larger container for fresh SW.

 

[lazyreefer]

Well, how about an update.....please keep in mind this thread isn't about claiming one salt is better than another but rather trying to figure out why parameters are dropping over the course of 5-7 days. It just so happens that while testing the fresh SW I started to realize Reef Crystals salt wasn't living up to their advertised numbers either freshly made or a few days later.

I went an purchased a 300 gallon box of Coralife a few months ago, I would comment that having all the salt in a single bag was kind of silly since when you buy a 5 gallon bucket of their salt it somes in 3 bags with a T-shirt. (nice freebie for the misses) Get some moisture in that BIG bag of salt and you're bumming. Anyways, in almost a year of using RC I never had any precipitate or film, or any sort of junk build up on my pump, heater, or the inside of the Brute can itself. After two mixes using Coralife I could write my name in the junk built up inside the Brute.

Can you guess which bucket has my old tank water in it and which bucket holds water straight out of a freshly made batch of SW from the Brute......(hint, I would drink my old tank water)​

The next pic shows a two week old bucket of RC saltwater, (the last of what I had) along with a napkin I used to wipe out the brute trash can. (which was clean prior to mixing Coralife salt)​

Here's a pic of the Brute after a few batches of fresh saltwater was mixed up in it using the Coralife salt. Again, I use RO/DI with 0 TDS and a clean filter prior to the Brute.....​

I don't know what they put in their salt but my LFS has similar looking "tanks" that they use for their WCs with Coralife. As for the numbers using Coralife @ 1.025/26 I was seeing.....​

9.8 to 10 Alk​

500 Ca​

1270 to 1280 Mag​

On two occasions I measured < 5 nitrates in the Brute after mixing up fresh saltwater and after one week of aerating in the Brute at 78 degrees Alk dropped dramatically down to 6.4 to 7.0 while Mag tested out at 1240 and Calcium dropped to 450​

So, my experience shows Coralife's salt mix to have less than advertised numbers concerning Magnesium and higher numbers with Calicium --- although their numbers are at 1.023 and my numbers were more than satisfactory to me. The drop in Alk after 1 week is very concerning, there was a drop with Reef Crystals after one week across the board but Alk held at 7.4 or so ---- in my opinion if you are dosing with 2 part you need to dose your fresh saltwater to match your tank parameters prior to a water change or you're throwing money away on additives. (your dosing for certain params only to have a WC throw it all out of whack IMHO)​

I don't like the crap that QUICKLY built up inside my Brute, who knows....it may be harmless but I'm going through the trouble of 0 TDS only to be putting something into my tank via a water change. I don't have a handheld TDS meter or I would check them out in my fresh SW after mixing in salt.​

This whole thing was a surprise to me, I thought the water I was putting into my tank via a WC was better than the water coming out of my tank ---- that apparently is not the case. :neutral:​