Extremely weird tank parameters

[bshake]

Hey everyone so I’ve been fighting to get my parameters stable since the tank is relatively new. I tested my parameters 3 weeks ago for the first time after losing 2 torches and saw I had extremely high phosphorus 3.9 ppm trying to feed all my tangs so they’re happy and stop fighting. Since then I’ve been doing largeish water changes 35-40 % give or take. I also got a tunze algae reactor to help lower the nutrients. I use Teopic Marin pro reef.

I’ve burchaed a bunch of LPS (torches, hammer, frogspawns, elegance and gonis). I see a lot of my torch corals flesh bands are receding by a significant amount, the hammers, frogs pawns, and gonis are doing relatively well I guess. I did a 3 KFC dips and after 2 torches died 2 weeks ago.

Problem with the first tests P04 very high and cal was also very high even though I don’t dose anything

First test (all hanna checkers)
Salinity 35.1
N03- 11.3
P04- 3.9
Alk- 7.0 dkh
Mag- 1400
Cal- 547
PH- 7.8

After 3 weeks of 35-40% water changes and algae reactor

Problem here is magnesium is very high and calcium is very low.

Tested by LFS today 8/2/24 (attached photo)
salinity 37.1
NO3- 18 ppm
PO4- 1.3 ppm
Mag- 1520
Alk- 6.8 dkh
Cal- 384 ppm
PH- 7.8

Went home after that to double check with my Hanna checkers still magnesium is very high

Salinity 35.5 ppt (calibrated the Hanna salinity pen today)
N03- 19.5 ppm
P04- 1.2 ppm
Mag- 1520 ppm
Alk- 7.1 dkh
Cal- 512 ppm (checked twice)
PH- 7.8 ppm

 

[PharmrJohn]

How old is your tank? And what size?

 

[Mr. Mojo Rising]

You should be testing very frequently, the alk should be tested daily and controlled, your alk is low for me, it should be around 8.5.

The phosphate is very high but I wonder if its a test error. But phosphate is very easily controlled by gfo or lanthenum, we don't do water changes to reduce phosphate since it binds to the rock. The constant water changes like that also mess with the parameters.

To me it sounds like you have not yet gotten into the habit of testing and dosing. Parameters need to be stable, means the same every day, so you should be testing daily until you fine-tune the dosing regimen to maintain parameters for you.

 

[Mschmidt]

Phos takes a while to lower as it binds to calcium structures. You could keep with water changes, that'd be the least aggressive but most (maybe) expensive, after that gfo is more aggressive and more expensive but the risk is still lower, third and most aggressive would be lanthanum dosing. There's anecdotal evidence of risk to, most often zebrasoma, tangs.

I wouldn't worry about mag at this point.

 

[Mschmidt]

Caco3 (coral snow) is also a phosphate binder.

 

[WhatCouldGoWrong71]

Caco3 (coral snow) is also a phosphate binder.

So coral snow exports po4?

 

[bshake]

How old is your tank? And what size?

The tank started in April but I didn’t add corals until like June. The size is 125 but with rock and sand I’d say probably 100 gallons

 

[bshake]

You should be testing very frequently, the alk should be tested daily and controlled, your alk is low for me, it should be around 8.5.

The phosphate is very high but I wonder if its a test error. But phosphate is very easily controlled by gfo or lanthenum, we don't do water changes to reduce phosphate since it binds to the rock. The constant water changes like that also mess with the parameters.

To me it sounds like you have not yet gotten into the habit of testing and dosing. Parameters need to be stable, means the same every day, so you should be testing daily until you fine-tune the dosing regimen to maintain parameters for you.

I wasn’t testing because everything seemed happy and since it was a new tank I figured water changes were enough but now I know I’m wrong. I don’t dose anything into the tank besides chatogrow and restore that’s why I’m confused by why my parameters are all over the place.

I got a tunze algae reactor for nutrient control and today I’ll do another water change and add some GFO and start testing more regularly and keep track

 

[bshake]

Phos takes a while to lower as it binds to calcium structures. You could keep with water changes, that'd be the least aggressive but most (maybe) expensive, after that gfo is more aggressive and more expensive but the risk is still lower, third and most aggressive would be lanthanum dosing. There's anecdotal evidence of risk to, most often zebrasoma, tangs.

I wouldn't worry about mag at this point.

I managed to lower my phosphates from 3.9 to 1.2 with water changes alone basically but yeah I’m running through a bucket of salt every 3 weeks. I picked up some GFO and I have some lanthanum as well but I have 3 zebrasoma tangs in the tank so after I did my research i decided not to dose it.

 

[bshake]

Caco3 (coral snow) is also a phosphate binder.

I bought some actually and I’ll dose some tonight when lights go out.

 

[bshake]

Does anyone thing the torch flesh bank is happening because of water quality?

 

[bshake]

You should be testing very frequently, the alk should be tested daily and controlled, your alk is low for me, it should be around 8.5.

The phosphate is very high but I wonder if its a test error. But phosphate is very easily controlled by gfo or lanthenum, we don't do water changes to reduce phosphate since it binds to the rock. The constant water changes like that also mess with the parameters.

To me it sounds like you have not yet gotten into the habit of testing and dosing. Parameters need to be stable, means the same every day, so you should be testing daily until you fine-tune the dosing regimen to maintain parameters for you.

Should I start dosing all for reef? I have a bottle here but haven’t started

 

[crazyfishmom]

Restor is an amazing product and I recommend to continue using but it does raise phosphates a bit and as others have said, phosphates can bind to rock and then continue to be released into the water despite water changes.

Have you considered a little bit of carbon dosing? There are lots of great products in the market that will help with more natural means of reducing phosphates.

If your alkalinity is getting that low then yes, it might be time for starting up on AFR.

 

[twentyleagues]

First for some of the parameters like calc, alk, mag(?) I would mix a batch of new saltwater and test it with your test kit and see what it comes out to. Does that match what the box of salt says? Are you mixing to the correct sg for those parameters ie do the instructions say 1.024 mix should be Xcal and so on and you mix it to 1.026 then the cal would be higher. If you can cross check the new salt water with the lfs. This could be testing errors on the test kit or how its being done. TM pro should be 440 cal, 7 alk, 1350 mag, Mag tests are not reliable so I would take whatever it says with a grain of salt so to say. I tested my mag levels every day for a week and noticed they were always within 20ppm of each other, but the level was very high 1500+ way higher than my salt mix so I think my test procedure is correct but the answer is not. So with that I just use those tests as a base line and in my tank with my test 1500ish is where I should be even if its not actually 1500. If lfs and your tests agree then you "know" the salt is higher in parameters than it should be. If they are different testing error on your part or the test kit is somehow incorrect. If you have a good lfs they may be willing to help you figure it out possibly testing their water with your kit and cross checking it with theirs. My lfs is great and if not busy will do this kind of thing for customers. They dont usually test mag though as its usually incorrect and kind of a pain and time consuming they will if you really push.

If this process shows your tests to be incorrect and it looks to be a multi tester its possible there is something wrong with the tester and all tests may be effected. Or user error and all tests are still effected.

Po4 seems very high for that new of a tank but its not impossible especially if you are feeding heavy for all the fish. Its possible also the rock you used had "bound" po4. Did you ever check po4 when the tank had less life and less feed?

 

[bshake]

Restor is an amazing product and I recommend to continue using but it does raise phosphates a bit and as others have said, phosphates can bind to rock and then continue to be released into the water despite water changes.

Have you considered a little bit of carbon dosing? There are lots of great products in the market that will help with more natural means of reducing phosphates.

If your alkalinity is getting that low then yes, it might be time for starting up on AFR.

Yeah I’m just dosing restor because i noticed my torch corals are receding and it’s driving me crazy . I have nopox but last time I dosed it unit my old system there was slime everywhere and I don’t want that on this new tank. I’ll start with GFO and see how that does.

Would AFR be okay with such high magnesium?

 

[KrisReef]

If you keep adding food and this chemical and then another additive you will not be able to get your numbers figured out, unless you have a super computer and a good understanding of chemical equations that you program the computer to figure out what all is going on.

Mg, leave it alone for now, it’s high but not a problem.

Try to focus on alk and Ca getting those stable if you want to be successful.

As far as the torches, get the parameters stable before you add any more corals.

The torches could have become sick or arrived sick and the parameters being wacky expedited their flesh retracting.

Stability and what to dose and when is necessary before the coral gets thrown in. Each coral added will remove P Alk, and Ca and trace amounts of Mg if the coral is healthy and growing. You need stability so you can see with the testing what the coral is doing to your parameters and change the dosing of elements to compensate for the uptake.

Same with fish, fish foods & PO4

 

[KrisReef]

Oh, and if you don’t have a test kit get Alk & Ca and PO4 for home testing, every day at the same time until you have an idea what is going on.

 

[bshake]

First for some of the parameters like calc, alk, mag(?) I would mix a batch of new saltwater and test it with your test kit and see what it comes out to. Does that match what the box of salt says? Are you mixing to the correct sg for those parameters ie do the instructions say 1.024 mix should be Xcal and so on and you mix it to 1.026 then the cal would be higher. If you can cross check the new salt water with the lfs. This could be testing errors on the test kit or how its being done. TM pro should be 440 cal, 7 alk, 1350 mag, Mag tests are not reliable so I would take whatever it says with a grain of salt so to say. I tested my mag levels every day for a week and noticed they were always within 20ppm of each other, but the level was very high 1500+ way higher than my salt mix so I think my test procedure is correct but the answer is not. So with that I just use those tests as a base line and in my tank with my test 1500ish is where I should be even if its not actually 1500. If lfs and your tests agree then you "know" the salt is higher in parameters than it should be. If they are different testing error on your part or the test kit is somehow incorrect. If you have a good lfs they may be willing to help you figure it out possibly testing their water with your kit and cross checking it with theirs. My lfs is great and if not busy will do this kind of thing for customers. They dont usually test mag though as its usually incorrect and kind of a pain and time consuming they will if you really push.

If this process shows your tests to be incorrect and it looks to be a multi tester its possible there is something wrong with the tester and all tests may be effected. Or user error and all tests are still effected.

Po4 seems very high for that new of a tank but its not impossible especially if you are feeding heavy for all the fish. It’s possible also the rock you used had "bound" po4. Did you ever check po4 when the tank had less life and less feed?

I’ll try and check the new salt water I just made and see what the parameters are on that to see and maybe take it to the LFS and have them run their test on it as well.

Most of the rock that’s in this tank came from my old 75 gallon tank which also had very high phosphates but I cured it in bleach and recycled it but I’m assuming it’s pound within the rock work.

 

[bshake]

If you keep adding food and this chemical and then another additive you will not be able to get your numbers figured out, unless you have a super computer and a good understanding of chemical equations that you program the computer to figure out what all is going on.

Mg, leave it alone for now, it’s high but not a problem.

Try to focus on alk and Ca getting those stable if you want to be successful.

As far as the torches, get the parameters stable before you add any more corals.

The torches could have become sick or arrived sick and the parameters being wacky expedited their flesh retracting.

Stability and what to dose and when is necessary before the coral gets thrown in. Each coral added will remove P Alk, and Ca and trace amounts of Mg if the coral is healthy and growing. You need stability so you can see with the testing what the coral is doing to your parameters and change the dosing of elements to compensate for the uptake.

Same with fish, fish foods & PO4

Yeah I haven’t added anything new since I saw my PO4 and parameters are outta line so I’ve been trying to fix the problem slowly every week with water changes. I have wall to wall LPS corals in the tank so I just don’t want to lose any more of them. How can I get the alk and ca stable? I can start with all for reef or water changes.

 

[bshake]

Oh, and if you don’t have a test kit get Alk & Ca and PO4 for home testing, every day at the same time until you have an idea what is going on.

I have the Hanna checkers for all the major elements plus po4 and no3. That’s what I’m using, bought new reagents last week since the ones I had were expired